Teague 3/8s not as good as 1/4s?

[Mike_ESK]

I have been using a set of titanium ¼ super extended ported in my Beretta 694 for about 2 years, very very happy with them, they shoot a great pattern, with quality kills in skeet and sporting, shooting out to fairly big distances and holding a good pattern out to 50-60 yards. I recently bought a set of titanium 3/8’s and for my skeet work (AA class) they are excellent, but I am noticing at sporting they are brilliant up to 40 yards. After that I barely have a pattern as I have tested with these chokes and it falls apart after about 40-45 yards.

As I’ve been using the 1/4s for the last 30k birds, stepping to 3/8 I thought would be just a shade tighter, which patterning (with multiple cartridges) shows it’s a good pattern at a 30 yard mark indeed tighter, I cannot test on a pattern board at further distances with it, but it you can see the breaks you get at further distances they are not as clean as my ¼ at the same distance at 40 yards and my friends who were with me had Briley 3/8s, Beretta ¼ chokes and Teague 1/2 and ½ and all of them connected with the birds ok.

I shoot 3 times a week, AA class skeet shooter and A in sporting so I am aware of things like gun fit causing issues as you tighten but my gun fits extremely well, I am a shooting coach myself and have had several professionals have checked it. I have put a few thousand rounds of different brands through them and find them to be ok up to 40 but after that they utterly fall apart.

Is this expected behaviour from 3/8’s? I was led to believe they are the “gods” choke and is what most people choose to shoot these days but they seem to be worse than my 1/4s at distance bizarrely.

I used to shoot Beretta own brand 1/2's and seem like they patterned better than "precision" teagues

I feel like I need to go buy a set of Briley 1/2s or something now, the 3/8s are just not working at distance

I went to a shooting school to "learn" the 3/8s thinking they would be just a little bit more than my 1/4s I use 2-3 times a week! But the 45-50 yard crossing bird I practice on I could not break, put 50 through it - couldn't hit it at all. I hit it 80% of the time, this weekend, all my losses were long birds. Not a technique issue, I have and shoot many long birds for practice weekly.

It seems like the teague chokes are simply making massive holes in my pattern with 3/8's I cannot explain, as they would simply tighten only the edges of the pattern from 1/4 in theory, not causing this much grief!

[wymberley]

Surely, any effect that the choke has is decided and ends shortly after the pellets exit the barrel and their course is thereafter determined within the parameters set by atmospherics and pellet velocity and shape. If that is correct then any catastrophic pattern deterioration in just some 5 yards some 40 yards out can not be blamed on the choke. If I had a 1/4 choke capable of killing clays some 60 odd yards out I'd be wondering whether or not the '1' was a misprint. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Welcome to Pigeon Watch.

[enfieldspares]

Yes I have heard in described in similar glowing terms. But is that 3/8 choke you purchased matched by Teague to YOUR gun or just either a nominal 3/8 or maybe matched to be 3/8 in someone else's Beretta?

Edited February 24 by enfieldspares

[Mike_ESK]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Surely, any effect that the choke has is decided and ends shortly after the pellets exit the barrel and their course is thereafter determined within the parameters set by atmospherics and pellet velocity and shape. If that is correct then any catastrophic pattern deterioration in just some 5 yards some 40 yards out can not be blamed on the choke. If I had a 1/4 choke capable of killing clays some 60 odd yards out I'd be wondering whether or not the '1' was a misprint. 

West Kent & Willow farm I have measured the birds with google maps, 55m-70m on both grounds, hit with a 1/4 Teague choke, EJ churchills Beretta world shot 50 yard crosser with it. Not convincing breaks but I do it consistently and people with me had 1/4 on Sunday doing it. Just you get a 410 core of pellets out to there with 1/4

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes I have heard in described in similar glowing terms. But is that 3/8 choke you purchased matched by Teague to YOUR gun or just either a nominal 3/8 or maybe matched to be 3/8 in someone else's Beretta?

Nominal. Off the shelf from them.

 

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Surely, any effect that the choke has is decided and ends shortly after the pellets exit the barrel and their course is thereafter determined within the parameters set by atmospherics and pellet velocity and shape. If that is correct then any catastrophic pattern deterioration in just some 5 yards some 40 yards out can not be blamed on the choke. If I had a 1/4 choke capable of killing clays some 60 odd yards out I'd be wondering whether or not the '1' was a misprint. 

Exactly but You can see from my breaks 40 yard is good but past that it's simply not working. I've used half and half in the past, 3/4 sometimes. 

My only conclusion is gun fit, it's not pointing where i think it is and the point it matters is 45 yards onwards?

[enfieldspares]

55 minutes ago, Mike_ESK said:

 

Nominal. Off the shelf from them.

 

Aha Dr Watson. So the open 1/4 choke was that also purchased off the shelf or was it bespoken to the gun? If you can maybe get them measured the 1/4 vs the 3/8 and see if there is a difference in the bore of each? The only other thing I could suggest is that the 3/8 is damaging the individual pellets so at longer distance these are not flying true? That may be perhaps a disruption at the front edge of the choke vis a vis the shoulder it beds against when screwed in?

Edited February 24 by enfieldspares

[TIGHTCHOKE]

57 minutes ago, Mike_ESK said:

My only conclusion is gun fit, it's not pointing where i think it is and the point it matters is 45 yards onwards?

So it is NOT the choke then, it is your poor gun fit putting the pattern in the WRONG place?

[Mike_ESK]

24 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So it is NOT the choke then, it is your poor gun fit putting the pattern in the WRONG place?

I've not yet decided on the problem being gun fit but logically it would show up before 45 yards, hitting edges of birds, rather than centering but I'm nuking things at 35-45 with my 1/4s, I can shoot the high tower at West Kent no issue, it COULD be the issue but all signs say the gun fits correctly, being the fact I shoot 10k ESK a year and 3000 ESP or so, I would notice gun fit issues. It is a conclusion I am leaning towards but until I get more data on the pattern I am not sure still.

34 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Aha Dr Watson. So the open 1/4 choke was that also purchased off the shelf or was it bespoken to the gun? If you can maybe get them measured the 1/4 vs the 3/8 and see if there is a difference in the bore of each? The only other thing I could suggest is that the 3/8 is damaging the individual pellets so at longer distance these are not flying true? That may be perhaps a disruption at the front edge of the choke vis a vis the shoulder it beds against when screwed in?

Also nominal, I have another Beretta gun I can try with them, 18.6 bore like the 694

[enfieldspares]

10 minutes ago, Mike_ESK said:

Also nominal, I have another Beretta gun I can try with them, 18.6 bore like the 694

I that may be the issue? That 18.6 bore. So the pellets are getting choked down and damaged by the 3/8 choke? 

[Mike_ESK]

2 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

I that may be the issue? That 18.6 bore. So the pellets are getting choked down and damaged by the 3/8 choke? 

Longer forcing cones should prevent that. I do notice something with the 1/4s is the pattern is a bit more airy than others using 1/4s they do not even truly nuke birds at skeet, they dust but its not inkballs I see with Briley chokes. Teague pattern theirs by using a long taper vs a taper and parallel segment, this means the shot string is more uniform but also longer slightly. I wonder if the 3/8 is dragging out the string? 

I shoot with Jamie Brightman and Henry Arnold a lot and they state the 3/4 and Full is the only reliable choke, which marries with Digweeds thoughs (his are more 3/8 than true full) and Jamie often shoots 96s at Willow Farm - we often spar well at skeet at Kingsferry.

Atwood and Bradley Day also use 3/4 and I am beginning to see the need for something along those lines for some of these shoots now. If it IS gun fit that will show up on closer birds as a test I guess.

[Stonepark]

The best route is to start from solid data points.

 

Pattern both your 1/4 chokes at 50 yards on paper for 3 shots each, pattern your 3/8 chokes at 50 yards for 3 shots each (12 shots total), record pellet count and record eveness of patterns for holes.

I suspect what is happening is your 3/8 denser pattern at 30 yards, has a lot of pellets crossing within the pattern to give the denser core and as a result pattern opens up more once past the maximum density point, resulting in a more patchy pattern at distance.

Your 1/4 chokes are keeping pellets more parallel so pattern is holding together better at distance.

 

 

[mpmilo]

My 694 top barrel shot no where near the same POI as the bottom barrel, I had the supplied chokes + teague in 3/8s and 1/2s and my scores went from 88, 90s down to 72 back up again and finally a 68. I tried all the adjustments on the comb and to be honest it got on my nerves. I wasted 7 months trying to sort it out untill my mate locked it in a jig and a measured pattern plate at 40 yards.

Bottom barrel spot on.. Top barrel high and left by a country mile. i put Fiocchi blacks 8 and 71/2, White gold , Rossa s and Sov 6.5s through it with the same outcome. Looking on the Shotgun world forum it seems to be a common problem with the barrels not having the  same POI. I havent got the gun anymore.

As for teague chokes I use them all the time in my new gun with no problems at all in 1/2 and 1/2 or 1/2 and 3/4 for sporting. 

 

Edited February 24 by mpmilo

[Mike_ESK]

Here is some examples of shot distances / shots made with 1/4s successfully

 

 

[enfieldspares]

43 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The best route is to start from solid data points.

 

Pattern both your 1/4 chokes at 50 yards on paper for 3 shots each, pattern your 3/8 chokes at 50 yards for 3 shots each (12 shots total), record pellet count and record eveness of patterns for holes.

I suspect what is happening is your 3/8 denser pattern at 30 yards, has a lot of pellets crossing within the pattern to give the denser core and as a result pattern opens up more once past the maximum density point, resulting in a more patchy pattern at distance.

Your 1/4 chokes are keeping pellets more parallel so pattern is holding together better at distance.

 

 

This. From a fouled barrel. And three shots thereafter the first non-patterned fouling shot.

[Mike_ESK]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

The best route is to start from solid data points.

 

Pattern both your 1/4 chokes at 50 yards on paper for 3 shots each, pattern your 3/8 chokes at 50 yards for 3 shots each (12 shots total), record pellet count and record eveness of patterns for holes.

I suspect what is happening is your 3/8 denser pattern at 30 yards, has a lot of pellets crossing within the pattern to give the denser core and as a result pattern opens up more once past the maximum density point, resulting in a more patchy pattern at distance.

Your 1/4 chokes are keeping pellets more parallel so pattern is holding together better at distance.

 

 

That is EXACTLY what I think is happening with it, but as you say without data I cannot confirm, but it is without a doubt the feeling I am getting from them. It absolutely falls apart at that a very specific distance it becomes utterly useless. 

I think I will keep them for skeet practice, I shoot steel shot and the pattern density is rather good with them for practice still but I don't think I'll be using them for sporting. I am thinking the confidence with even tighter chokes isn't there anymore and when Ed solomn says "you don't need more than 3/8 on any sporting layout" I think there are several clubs like that but these bigger shoots it's laughable. Everyone is shooting 1/2 to 3/4 or more now and a cylinder / skeet for a rabbits

If 3/8 has a crossing point at 35 yards, 1/2 will be about 40, 5/8 about 45 etc obviously I'll need to pattern them.

It seems that single taper chokes have a draw back compared to Briley style chokes. Hell even the old Beretta ones in 1/2 I would shoot greenfields top pitch at 50 yards ok.

Makes me wonder why I swapped out...

[Robden]

14 hours ago, Mike_ESK said:

I have been using a set of titanium ¼ super extended ported in my Beretta 694 for about 2 years, very very happy with them, they shoot a great pattern, with quality kills in skeet and sporting, shooting out to fairly big distances and holding a good pattern out to 50-60 yards. I recently bought a set of titanium 3/8’s and for my skeet work (AA class) they are excellent, but I am noticing at sporting they are brilliant up to 40 yards. After that I barely have a pattern as I have tested with these chokes and it falls apart after about 40-45 yards.

As I’ve been using the 1/4s for the last 30k birds, stepping to 3/8 I thought would be just a shade tighter, which patterning (with multiple cartridges) shows it’s a good pattern at a 30 yard mark indeed tighter, I cannot test on a pattern board at further distances with it, but it you can see the breaks you get at further distances they are not as clean as my ¼ at the same distance at 40 yards and my friends who were with me had Briley 3/8s, Beretta ¼ chokes and Teague 1/2 and ½ and all of them connected with the birds ok.

I shoot 3 times a week, AA class skeet shooter and A in sporting so I am aware of things like gun fit causing issues as you tighten but my gun fits extremely well, I am a shooting coach myself and have had several professionals have checked it. I have put a few thousand rounds of different brands through them and find them to be ok up to 40 but after that they utterly fall apart.

Is this expected behaviour from 3/8’s? I was led to believe they are the “gods” choke and is what most people choose to shoot these days but they seem to be worse than my 1/4s at distance bizarrely.

I used to shoot Beretta own brand 1/2's and seem like they patterned better than "precision" teagues

I feel like I need to go buy a set of Briley 1/2s or something now, the 3/8s are just not working at distance

I went to a shooting school to "learn" the 3/8s thinking they would be just a little bit more than my 1/4s I use 2-3 times a week! But the 45-50 yard crossing bird I practice on I could not break, put 50 through it - couldn't hit it at all. I hit it 80% of the time, this weekend, all my losses were long birds. Not a technique issue, I have and shoot many long birds for practice weekly.

It seems like the teague chokes are simply making massive holes in my pattern with 3/8's I cannot explain, as they would simply tighten only the edges of the pattern from 1/4 in theory, not causing this much grief!

Don't use them then.......simples.

[Scully]

I’m nowhere near in the same class and only shoot clays for fun. However,  Is 40 yds plus the distance targets are regularly presented on any particular course?  Seems a long way to me, but like I say, I don’t shoot serious comps, so what do I know. 

I shoot fitted and aftermarket Teague’s in two of my guns, including 3/8ths which I consider to be a marvelous constriction. 
I can hit targets consistently with good breaks through both skeet and 3/8ths on the Westlands tower; I have no idea how high or far these targets are, but it’s a long way, which is why it is a challenge. I suppose I could call them and ask. 🤷‍♂️

I also shoot 3/8ths for game and pigeon through Teague fitted and aftermarket chokes, and a Briley 3/8ths, and find them devastating on live quarry and have had some impressive kills at distance, but that’s a much bigger target than an edge on clay. 
I can’t answer why you’re struggling with this particular choke at this distance, but Teague possibly could? 

[vmaxphil]

As you can hit with 1/4 I doubt it's gun fit, I suspect you're gun doesn't like the teague 3/8 for some reason, as said you need to find a place to pattern it just to settle your mind 👍

[Westley]

It is a mind game...........I shoot 1/4 & 1/4,because it works for me.

I only use Briley extended chokes.  Only due to the fact that, I found Teague chokes would become loose in my guns. Briley stay put. I only shoot for pleasure, when it ceases to be pleasurable,  I shall stop.

[Mike_ESK]

5 hours ago, Robden said:

Don't use them then.......simples.

They will be used for skeet practice only now as I can't trust them out to distance, they make my skeet practice that much better, then stepping back to 1/4 at 21 yards they are top notch, hell up to 35 yards they look amazing! Just after that I've not hit anything with them - not even a chip!

 

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I’m nowhere near in the same class and only shoot clays for fun. However,  Is 40 yds plus the distance targets are regularly presented on any particular course?  Seems a long way to me, but like I say, I don’t shoot serious comps, so what do I know. 

I shoot fitted and aftermarket Teague’s in two of my guns, including 3/8ths which I consider to be a marvelous constriction. 
I can hit targets consistently with good breaks through both skeet and 3/8ths on the Westlands tower; I have no idea how high or far these targets are, but it’s a long way, which is why it is a challenge. I suppose I could call them and ask. 🤷‍♂️

I also shoot 3/8ths for game and pigeon through Teague fitted and aftermarket chokes, and a Briley 3/8ths, and find them devastating on live quarry and have had some impressive kills at distance, but that’s a much bigger target than an edge on clay. 
I can’t answer why you’re struggling with this particular choke at this distance, but Teague possibly could? 

40 yards plus is seen on a lot of grounds now, because the level of competition has risen the birds difficulty must also. You will get 7 stands of anything from 10-30 yards and then some reall card killers. This week at willow we had a rabbit and 45 yard edge on crosser, an overhead and a right to left belly on 50 yard looper, a right to left screamer and a looper off the tower at 70 yards. They are coming more and more - when King George and Mr Brightman turn up you need something to seperate them from each other let alone classes. Look at the above images to see some of the distances thrown, at some of the smaller clubs in Kent, liek Martin Gorse you will never see them but at CPSA comps you will see them. Go on English Sporting youtube channel and you'll see their walkrounds of grounds to show you some of the distances. EJ Churchills threw a 65m edge on crosser after a dolly bird one year! Hit it once with the 1/4! 

I've been coaching a while and shooting even longer, which is why I am so confused about the fact 3/8s should be the gods choke but they seem to be falling off at a hard limit for me, whereas my very very well worn IC's are doing more heavy lifting at distance, they dont have a cut off for falling off!

I have asked Teague if they could explain the behaviour of the choke and what I am seeing - I assure you I am not missing all these birds because technique! 

 

1 hour ago, vmaxphil said:

As you can hit with 1/4 I doubt it's gun fit, I suspect you're gun doesn't like the teague 3/8 for some reason, as said you need to find a place to pattern it just to settle your mind 👍

Yeah thats exactly why I think a tiny bit of cast (fat cheeks) will be irrelevant, I've shot this gun so much that I know the thing inside out. I've shot a teal on the way up at 50 yards, I've shot high driven towers with the 1/4's. Seems I might have to go to Briley for a distance choke or something. The 1/4 worked ok but I wanted the pattern to be a bit tighter at another 10 yards or so, getting single pellets on target isn't great but missing entierly is worse! 

 

1 hour ago, Westley said:

It is a mind game...........I shoot 1/4 & 1/4,because it works for me.

I only use Briley extended chokes.  Only due to the fact that, I found Teague chokes would become loose in my guns. Briley stay put. I only shoot for pleasure, when it ceases to be pleasurable,  I shall stop.

I shoot sporting for pleasure, but skeet..... 2 times a week, reffing and coaching it, going for national team, nearly won the open a few times. 

I wish it was just for fun still!

[wymberley]

As we know, any result of any study into shotgun ballistics is based on the average of the individual findings and therefore the more of these the more accurate the final figure will be. Excluding the shot for the barrel, 5 shots for field use and 10 for study/research use is the recommended figure. This is highlighted by the work of the Ballistic Research Laboratory which measured individual figures of from 23 to 70% (which is reported in the BASC pattern test article). This will give the pattern density and this coupled with the 'patchiness' test to give pattern quality will give a better overall final assessment. The trick is not to be tempted to ignore any individual pattern you didn't like the look off - it happened and in all probability will happen again. With regard to pellets crossing over and giving a denser core, think Gauss.

[Wylye]

Speak to Ivan Reid at Teague. He has a vast knowledge of the subject and is always willing to offer help and advice.

[Mike_ESK]

20 minutes ago, Wylye said:

Speak to Ivan Reid at Teague. He has a vast knowledge of the subject and is always willing to offer help and advice.

I've reached out to them to see what they say, I'm so very close to going to buy some 1/2 Brileys from Chris Potter - only thing is they will be heavier than my titaniums and will need to rebalance my gun, which Im loathed to do....

 

12 weeks for an order from the USA for some titaniums....

 

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

As we know, any result of any study into shotgun ballistics is based on the average of the individual findings and therefore the more of these the more accurate the final figure will be. Excluding the shot for the barrel, 5 shots for field use and 10 for study/research use is the recommended figure. This is highlighted by the work of the Ballistic Research Laboratory which measured individual figures of from 23 to 70% (which is reported in the BASC pattern test article). This will give the pattern density and this coupled with the 'patchiness' test to give pattern quality will give a better overall final assessment. The trick is not to be tempted to ignore any individual pattern you didn't like the look off - it happened and in all probability will happen again. With regard to pellets crossing over and giving a denser core, think Gauss.

The amount of lead I've thrown at things since getting them would give me a good average of data, I thought I was just not finding the right lead but its really not the case. I will be going to west Kent shooting school Friday to do some testing but I'm sure im going to see massive gaps in pattern at 50m 

[Westley]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

As we know, any result of any study into shotgun ballistics is based on the average of the individual findings and therefore the more of these the more accurate the final figure will be. Excluding the shot for the barrel, 5 shots for field use and 10 for study/research use is the recommended figure. This is highlighted by the work of the Ballistic Research Laboratory which measured individual figures of from 23 to 70% (which is reported in the BASC pattern test article). This will give the pattern density and this coupled with the 'patchiness' test to give pattern quality will give a better overall final assessment. The trick is not to be tempted to ignore any individual pattern you didn't like the look off - it happened and in all probability will happen again. With regard to pellets crossing over and giving a denser core, think Gauss.

Most of my shooting relies on er......Gausswork   !   😊

[retromlc]

,,,

Edited February 25 by retromlc