Trump and Zelensky Oval Office meeting

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, old man said:

Always about control, keeping the masses frightened and poor?

 

Without a doubt 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Just to play devils advocate here, Britains colonial escapades around the same time of the genocides against first nations people make for some very grim reading.
Our recent 'adventures ' in Afghan and Iraq are also a worthy mention for body count alone.

 

Would it interest you to know that Ukraine killed 3500 of its own civilian citizens in Donbas BEFORE this war even started, mostly by artillery strikes on residential areas ?
We could say that Ukraine had no right to do this ?

The UK/US  went into Afghan and Iraq and killed or injured 100s of 1000s of civilians, did we have a right ?

I usually get called out for whataboutery at this point, but when diplomacy fails, war follows, and people die.
This has been the case for 5000 years, and isnt about to stop anytime soon.

The simple fact is, when WE do it, its liberation, when THEY do it, its illegal and wrong.
 

I've mentioned above about Ukraines behaviour but how does destroying a further million or more lives help exactly? 

It's well documented the Iraq weapons of mass destruction excuse for the war there was based on lies and I'd think it fair to say the majority of British people believe Tony Blair to be a war criminal. But how does the UK being wrong there make it okay that Russia is currently carrying out an even bigger atrocity in Ukraine? 

Whataboutary is exactly what you seem to be arguing. There are basic undeniable facts in this and it's it's most basic level, Russia invaded Ukraine which has led to nearly a million dead or injured. There is nothing that has led up to this war that justifies it's existence. 

[Rem260]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Just to play devils advocate here, Britains colonial escapades around the same time of the genocides against first nations people make for some very grim reading.
Our recent 'adventures ' in Afghan and Iraq are also a worthy mention for body count alone.

 

 

Whilst I don't fall out with your statement. I was commenting on the statement by NBI and how it only applies in certain circumstances. I would imagine Mexico might also have a different view. One could view that California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, and most of Arizona could once have been classed as colonies. The only difference between the US and European colonial expansion was that it was easy to assimilate adjoining land into being called part of the US and then say its one country.

 

[Rewulf]

57 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

There is nothing that has led up to this war that justifies it's existence. 

Well clearly there is, otherwise it wouldnt have happened !
Someone or some country or organisation thought it entirely justified, we can put it all down to one person if you like and blame Putins dreams of 'resurging the USSR or the Russian empire, or any of the other old tosh that did the rounds, along with him being a mad man (remember that one) ?
But at the end of the day, he isnt some god like creature that can bend a whole nation to his will.

The other aspect is all the failed peace plans, one totally scuppered by Boris, Minsk 1 and 2 ect, even now Zelensky doesnt want it to stop, even though Ukraine loses territory every day ?
Why ? Is it all about Putin/Russia, or are there elements on the other side that want it to continue ?

Find the answers to these questions, and you find the answers to how it started.

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Find the answers to these questions, and you find the answers to how it started.

the answer I want is how come from day one Zelensky has offered 12gauge and the other “outraged” a free rifle plus lift to the front line and not ONE of them has accepted! 

[yickdaz]

zelensky has offered an olive branch and said hes willing to go back sign a deal whether trump accepts it is another matter, hes busy fighting trudeau at the min 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

zelensky has offered an olive branch and said hes willing to go back sign a deal whether trump accepts it is another matter, hes busy fighting trudeau at the min 

Its amazing what a threat to withdraw US assistance can do.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Well clearly there is, otherwise it wouldnt have happened !
Someone or some country or organisation thought it entirely justified, we can put it all down to one person if you like and blame Putins dreams of 'resurging the USSR or the Russian empire, or any of the other old tosh that did the rounds, along with him being a mad man (remember that one) ?
But at the end of the day, he isnt some god like creature that can bend a whole nation to his will.

The other aspect is all the failed peace plans, one totally scuppered by Boris, Minsk 1 and 2 ect, even now Zelensky doesnt want it to stop, even though Ukraine loses territory every day ?
Why ? Is it all about Putin/Russia, or are there elements on the other side that want it to continue ?

Find the answers to these questions, and you find the answers to how it started.

Believe me, I'm very well aware of the atrocities carried out in the East of Ukraine under Zelensky, the virtual American backed coup that took place to insert Zelensky, and get rid of Russian sympathetic leadership and by that virtue, the expansion of Nato that would likely spread to Russia borders and why Putin would feel aggrieved at that. 

But to then launch a full blown military invasion of Ukraine costing a million lives is not a justified response and Putin also has his ulterior motives that I covered on this thread earlier. 

The very fact that Ukraine (and yes I know they used western equipment and backing to do it), defeated Russians initial invasion shows the strength of feeling in the rest of Ukraine at not wanting to be under Russian rule. 

All in all, yes Zelensky bad, Putin also bad (I'd argue worse but will leave that out for now). But what Putin has done by launching that invasion and still continue it, is utterly unjustified. 

I'm sure Russia had all the same excuses when they held on to East Germany and all the other countries after Ww2, thank God we weren't so divided back then, military spending aside, the UK hasn't got the cohesion to fight a large scale war anymore. 

[udderlyoffroad]

It’s too little too late. Zelenskyy is at this moment a walking corpse.  Spetsnaz* or a PMC will take him out. Good riddance.

 

*Whose Spetsnaz is another question.

 

Edited Tuesday at 19:01 by udderlyoffroad

[12gauge82]

43 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its amazing what a threat to withdraw US assistance can do.

Hardly a revelation what else did you expect them to do? 

[udderlyoffroad]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

the UK hasn't got the cohesion to fight a large scale war anymore

Would somebody kindly tell that lunatic Starmer that. “Boots on the ground”, what a roaster. His increase in defence spending won’t even cover replacing the weapons we sent to Ukraine 

[steve1066]

20 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

The last 8 years has been media telling me Trump was lying only to find out later he was right.  

I have just watched the Oval Office YouTube, you must be really proud of Trump and Vance, if that is how you do business in regards to possible world wars, then we are definitely better off without America and Europe will have to deal with Russia themselves. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

the answer I want is how come from day one Zelensky has offered 12gauge and the other “outraged” a free rifle plus lift to the front line and not ONE of them has accepted! 

What an idiotic comment. There are people on this forum who have fought for our country. Who the hell are you to pass comment on what people should do. 

51 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Would somebody kindly tell that lunatic Starmer that. “Boots on the ground”, what a roaster. His increase in defence spending won’t even cover replacing the weapons we sent to Ukraine 

Totally agreed. The time to put a peace keeping force was at the beginning, obviously with the USA, with current casualty rates our armed forces would be wiped out in a matter of weeks on our own. 

[steve1066]

58 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

What an idiotic comment. There are people on this forum who have fought for our country. Who the hell are you to pass comment on what people should do. 

Totally agreed. The time to put a peace keeping force was at the beginning, obviously with the USA, with current casualty rates our armed forces would be wiped out in a matter of weeks on our own. 

I think you are right 12gauge82, I’m sure our forces would make a good account of themselves as they usually do. But I would also like to think they wouldn’t be on their own, though I would prefer them to stay well away from the Ukraine, I feel for the moment we are sending them weapons, training their guys and homing some of their families, and I am sure some people would argue it isn’t enough, but for now I feel it’s sufficient.

I also think Starmer should keep is big mouth shut in regards to boots on the ground whether it’s for peace keeping or not. Peace keeping gets people killed as well.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 20:51 by steve1066

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

What an idiotic comment. There are people on this forum who have fought for our country. Who the hell are you to pass comment on what people should do. 

I’m not questioning jack! it’s a genuine question of why are the outraged refusing to accept Zelenskys offer when their happy enough to call others support him or is that to awkward to reply without further insult! 

[Dave-G]

11 hours ago, janner said:

I wondered at the time why farage (long time putin acolyte) and his wayward supporters were so against a european army when they were promoting brexit,

Now it has become abundantly clear.

Churchill must be spinning in his grave.

 

Again, where are you getting your Farage information from?

[12gauge82]

55 minutes ago, clangerman said:

I’m not questioning jack! it’s a genuine question of why are the outraged refusing to accept Zelenskys offer when their happy enough to call others support him or is that to awkward to reply without further insult! 

Your question is so ridiculous it doesn't merit a response but I will try. 

You can have an opinion about an unjust war without having to go and fight for it, by your logic, as a Putin supporter why haven't you gone and fought for Russia, you could join the N Korean group and launch one of their ww1 style raids? 

What about if your 90, are you excused from taking arms up then for believing Russias invasion is wrong or do they also have to fight? 

And finally, for all you know people may already have seen action out there, they might be unlikely to share it on here for a large number of reasons, but your question is crass. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, steve1066 said:

I think you are right 12gauge82, I’m sure our forces would make a good account of themselves as they usually do. But I would also like to think they wouldn’t be on their own, though I would prefer them to stay well away from the Ukraine, I feel for the moment we are sending them weapons, training their guys and homing some of their families, and I am sure some people would argue it isn’t enough, but for now I feel it’s sufficient.

I also think Starmer should keep is big mouth shut in regards to boots on the ground whether it’s for peace keeping or not. Peace keeping gets people killed as well.

 

 

I genuinely believe we have the best forces in the world, they're underfunded, too few in number and rarely get the recognition they deserve, but have always pulled it out of the bag when needed. It's a national scandal our successive governments have allowed them to be so chronically underfunded and nothing angers me more when they are sent to do a job and years later are hung out to dry for it once the government doesn't need them anymore. 

[steve1066]

30 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I genuinely believe we have the best forces in the world, they're underfunded, too few in number and rarely get the recognition they deserve, but have always pulled it out of the bag when needed. It's a national scandal our successive governments have allowed them to be so chronically underfunded and nothing angers me more when they are sent to do a job and years later are hung out to dry for it once the government doesn't need them anymore. 

I think that’s how it’s always been from Napoleonic wars onwards, totally wrong and ungrateful, as you said just discarded when not required to lay down their lives.

I watch the programmes on various conflicts, especially Afghanistan and I am in awe of how young and switched on our forces are. It’s probably one of only a few times I am proud to be British.

But I now feel this will change everything in regards to training, having the correct gear and the numbers they need to have a chance. Possibly the only thing we can thank Putin and Trump for, is the wake up call.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, steve1066 said:

I think that’s how it’s always been from Napoleonic wars onwards, totally wrong and ungrateful, as you said just discarded when not required to lay down their lives.

I watch the programmes on various conflicts, especially Afghanistan and I am in awe of how young and switched on our forces are. It’s probably one of only a few times I am proud to be British.

But I now feel this will change everything in regards to training, having the correct gear and the numbers they need to have a chance. Possibly the only thing we can thank Putin and Trump for, is the wake up call.

I think you raise some very good points. Your last paragraph is interesting as you've eluded to the future for our military. I genuinely don't think there's been a more dangerous time as far as conflict goes. War used to be man on man and there would be lulls in the battle of relative safety. 

With drone warfare, thermal vision and AI on the horizon, not to mention near peers catching up and the West falling apart by the destruction of national pride and a great number of people with allegiance to other countries rather than their own, it's a dangerous time for our boys and girls. 

[johnphilip]

An interesting take on the situation at the moment 

 This is someone's view. Make of it what you will .

I know the events in the White House was like watching a car crash in slow motion,  but I came across this comment, on a post i was following.
Makes you think differently about what we may have witnessed .....
Many of you probably watched what took place between Donald Trump and Zelensky tonight.
Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, you might be thinking to yourself, Oh my God, Donald Trump just screwed up.

However, as a lifelong practitioner of martial arts, strategy, and philosophy, let me explain the difference between what you believe you witnessed and what actually happened.
Donald Trump has been under constant political persecution since the beginning of his first term.
Over time, he has learned to be patient and calculated.

Tonight, Zelensky was invited to the Oval Office. However, both Trump and JD Vance knew exactly what Zelensky was going to do—he would use this opportunity, in front of the American people, to make a power play, Both Trump and Vance anticipated this.

When Zelensky began appealing to the emotions of the American people, JD Vance stepped in, accusing him of disrespecting Donald Trump.
This was brilliant strategy. It’s important to understand that Zelensky is trying to gain access to NATO.
Trump knew this but could not allow it to happen.
If Ukraine joins NATO, the U.S. would be bound by NATO’s collective defense agreement—an attack on one is an attack on all.

Now consider the larger implications: Ukraine and Russia despise each other.
If Ukraine were to become a NATO member, any future skirmish between them would obligate the U.S. to enter into direct conflict with Russia, this would mean World War III.
And if that happened, China would have to choose a side—they would almost certainly align with Russia.

So what you witnessed tonight was a setup.
Trump and JD Vance knew that the only way to achieve peace was to strategically align, at least on the surface, with Russia.
Why? Because Russia would never sign a peace treaty if Ukraine were admitted into NATO.
This is why Trump dismantled Zelenskyy’s argument. And when Zelensky, seeing his play failing, tried to backtrack and offer a treaty, Trump refused.

Zelenskyy’s real intent was clear—he would not agree to peace unless security guarantees were in place.
But what was he actually saying?
That NATO must accept Ukraine.
However, Russia would never agree to peace, knowing that NATO, their historical adversary, would surround them.

Zelensky, Putin, and Trump all knew this.
Zelensky, thinking he had Democrats' support, believed he could make this bold move on live television.
But Trump and Vance saw right through it and outmaneuvered him.
They knew that, in the short term, Democrats and the media would try to use this moment against them.
But they also knew they had two years before midterms to prove their strategy was the right one.
So they held their ground—brilliantly so.

Now, Zelensky will have no choice but to back down and accept Trump's terms.
But here’s the genius part—Trump is actually protecting Ukraine without dragging the U.S. into war.
By negotiating a mineral deal, Trump ensures that Americans will be involved in Ukraine’s mining industry. This prevents Russia from launching an invasion, because attacking Ukraine would mean endangering American lives—something that would force the U.S. to respond.

Trump played both sides like a master chess player. In the end, Zelensky will have no choice but to concede, because without U.S. support, Ukraine cannot win a prolonged war against Russia.
And once U.S. companies have mining operations in Ukraine, Putin will be unable to attack without triggering massive international consequences.
Don’t underestimate Donald Trump.
In this game of chess, he’s 10 moves ahead of everyone.

Credit:benson

 

[Penelope]

10 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

An interesting take on the situation at the moment 

 This is someone's view. Make of it what you will .

I know the events in the White House was like watching a car crash in slow motion,  but I came across this comment, on a post i was following.
Makes you think differently about what we may have witnessed .....
Many of you probably watched what took place between Donald Trump and Zelensky tonight.
Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, you might be thinking to yourself, Oh my God, Donald Trump just screwed up.

However, as a lifelong practitioner of martial arts, strategy, and philosophy, let me explain the difference between what you believe you witnessed and what actually happened.
Donald Trump has been under constant political persecution since the beginning of his first term.
Over time, he has learned to be patient and calculated.

Tonight, Zelensky was invited to the Oval Office. However, both Trump and JD Vance knew exactly what Zelensky was going to do—he would use this opportunity, in front of the American people, to make a power play, Both Trump and Vance anticipated this.

When Zelensky began appealing to the emotions of the American people, JD Vance stepped in, accusing him of disrespecting Donald Trump.
This was brilliant strategy. It’s important to understand that Zelensky is trying to gain access to NATO.
Trump knew this but could not allow it to happen.
If Ukraine joins NATO, the U.S. would be bound by NATO’s collective defense agreement—an attack on one is an attack on all.

Now consider the larger implications: Ukraine and Russia despise each other.
If Ukraine were to become a NATO member, any future skirmish between them would obligate the U.S. to enter into direct conflict with Russia, this would mean World War III.
And if that happened, China would have to choose a side—they would almost certainly align with Russia.

So what you witnessed tonight was a setup.
Trump and JD Vance knew that the only way to achieve peace was to strategically align, at least on the surface, with Russia.
Why? Because Russia would never sign a peace treaty if Ukraine were admitted into NATO.
This is why Trump dismantled Zelenskyy’s argument. And when Zelensky, seeing his play failing, tried to backtrack and offer a treaty, Trump refused.

Zelenskyy’s real intent was clear—he would not agree to peace unless security guarantees were in place.
But what was he actually saying?
That NATO must accept Ukraine.
However, Russia would never agree to peace, knowing that NATO, their historical adversary, would surround them.

Zelensky, Putin, and Trump all knew this.
Zelensky, thinking he had Democrats' support, believed he could make this bold move on live television.
But Trump and Vance saw right through it and outmaneuvered him.
They knew that, in the short term, Democrats and the media would try to use this moment against them.
But they also knew they had two years before midterms to prove their strategy was the right one.
So they held their ground—brilliantly so.

Now, Zelensky will have no choice but to back down and accept Trump's terms.
But here’s the genius part—Trump is actually protecting Ukraine without dragging the U.S. into war.
By negotiating a mineral deal, Trump ensures that Americans will be involved in Ukraine’s mining industry. This prevents Russia from launching an invasion, because attacking Ukraine would mean endangering American lives—something that would force the U.S. to respond.

Trump played both sides like a master chess player. In the end, Zelensky will have no choice but to concede, because without U.S. support, Ukraine cannot win a prolonged war against Russia.
And once U.S. companies have mining operations in Ukraine, Putin will be unable to attack without triggering massive international consequences.
Don’t underestimate Donald Trump.
In this game of chess, he’s 10 moves ahead of everyone.

Credit:benson

 

Pretty much what Ditchy alluded to the other day.

[johnphilip]

26 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Pretty much what Ditchy alluded to the other day.

So correct. All the other posts are. About history  what has happened  . But we. Never learn . We  just keep repeating it .

My old mum years ago used to say. Wars are nature. Way. To sort. Out the world population of the world 

Man's worst trait is greed. .

[islandgun]

55 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

An interesting take on the situation at the moment 

 This is someone's view. Make of it what you will .

I know the events in the White House was like watching a car crash in slow motion,  but I came across this comment, on a post i was following.
Makes you think differently about what we may have witnessed .....
Many of you probably watched what took place between Donald Trump and Zelensky tonight.
Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, you might be thinking to yourself, Oh my God, Donald Trump just screwed up.

However, as a lifelong practitioner of martial arts, strategy, and philosophy, let me explain the difference between what you believe you witnessed and what actually happened.
Donald Trump has been under constant political persecution since the beginning of his first term.
Over time, he has learned to be patient and calculated.

Tonight, Zelensky was invited to the Oval Office. However, both Trump and JD Vance knew exactly what Zelensky was going to do—he would use this opportunity, in front of the American people, to make a power play, Both Trump and Vance anticipated this.

When Zelensky began appealing to the emotions of the American people, JD Vance stepped in, accusing him of disrespecting Donald Trump.
This was brilliant strategy. It’s important to understand that Zelensky is trying to gain access to NATO.
Trump knew this but could not allow it to happen.
If Ukraine joins NATO, the U.S. would be bound by NATO’s collective defense agreement—an attack on one is an attack on all.

Now consider the larger implications: Ukraine and Russia despise each other.
If Ukraine were to become a NATO member, any future skirmish between them would obligate the U.S. to enter into direct conflict with Russia, this would mean World War III.
And if that happened, China would have to choose a side—they would almost certainly align with Russia.

So what you witnessed tonight was a setup.
Trump and JD Vance knew that the only way to achieve peace was to strategically align, at least on the surface, with Russia.
Why? Because Russia would never sign a peace treaty if Ukraine were admitted into NATO.
This is why Trump dismantled Zelenskyy’s argument. And when Zelensky, seeing his play failing, tried to backtrack and offer a treaty, Trump refused.

Zelenskyy’s real intent was clear—he would not agree to peace unless security guarantees were in place.
But what was he actually saying?
That NATO must accept Ukraine.
However, Russia would never agree to peace, knowing that NATO, their historical adversary, would surround them.

Zelensky, Putin, and Trump all knew this.
Zelensky, thinking he had Democrats' support, believed he could make this bold move on live television.
But Trump and Vance saw right through it and outmaneuvered him.
They knew that, in the short term, Democrats and the media would try to use this moment against them.
But they also knew they had two years before midterms to prove their strategy was the right one.
So they held their ground—brilliantly so.

Now, Zelensky will have no choice but to back down and accept Trump's terms.
But here’s the genius part—Trump is actually protecting Ukraine without dragging the U.S. into war.
By negotiating a mineral deal, Trump ensures that Americans will be involved in Ukraine’s mining industry. This prevents Russia from launching an invasion, because attacking Ukraine would mean endangering American lives—something that would force the U.S. to respond.

Trump played both sides like a master chess player. In the end, Zelensky will have no choice but to concede, because without U.S. support, Ukraine cannot win a prolonged war against Russia.
And once U.S. companies have mining operations in Ukraine, Putin will be unable to attack without triggering massive international consequences.
Don’t underestimate Donald Trump.
In this game of chess, he’s 10 moves ahead of everyone.

Credit:benson

 

Or Zelenski played trump in a masterclass of double bluff..

[johnphilip]

16 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Or Zelenski played trump in a masterclass of double bluff..

Time will. Tell