pegleg31 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 the difference in size of a 7.5 pellet and a 6 is 0.3mm i use hull fitasc 7.5 for everything.next time i buy in bulk i'll be buying 7's. http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/products/competition/sovereign_fitasc.cfm look on there they're a fast cartridge and @ 50m the residual velocity is 169.7 m/s not that i'd be shooting that far out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 OK doing a very basic calculation, using data from Hull carts [in my browsing history]. With Comp X 28g plastic wad 7.5 shot size as a 'budget clay cart' Velocity @ 30m 212.5 m/s Velocity @ 50m 157.7 m/s Number of pellets 378 Mass of a single pellet 0.07g Kinetic energy of 1 pellet @ 30m 1.58 joules Kinetic energy of 1 pellet @ 50m 0.87 joules With Hull Special Pigeon plastic wad 32g shot size number 6/ Velocity @ 30m 225.5 m/s Velocity @ 50m 172.8 m/s Number of pellets 288 Mass of a single pellet 0.11g Kinetic energy of 1 pellet @ 30m 2.8 joules Kinetic energy of 1 pellet @ 50m 1.6 joules Doing a few simple calculations there are just over 25% more pellets in a 28g of 7.5's versus 32g of 6's but @ 50m to deliver the same energy to the bird it would require twice as many pellets to strike! EACH number six has almost TWICE the energy of a number 7.5. Energy = penetration and clean kills. Good info' but it doesn't cover all the bases. There are other factors such as trauma caused by multiple injuries and also the higher % of hitting a vital part of the bird the denser the pattern. Also smaller diameter pellets require less energy to penetrate owing to their reduced resistance. I shoot 6's in lead and 4's in steel, but have tried Winchester Trap 7's with no noticible loss of effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 I'm going to keep my head Low as these threads cause a few fireworks lol It's a range thing IMHO 7 1/2 shot up 35yds on live game ?? Yep, just about, the trouble starts when you go below 30yds. Mince: Sport, I think not. As has been said; respect your quarry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmobiler1 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) recently i have been shooting alot of wood pigeons, now it is costing me a fortune in cartriges (£70 per 250 32gram 6's), i was looking at clay pigeon cartridges in the gun shop and they are a lot cheaper, do you think that clay cartriges would be ok for shooting woodies and a few crows. would they kill them , if so what gram and number, thanks lk Get yourself some 28g 7 1/2 carts have a go with them mate, if you are on the target and at a sensible range you will be fine. If like some people have said that you would need more pellets to strike for a kill use a tighter choke simples!!! Get on a pettern plate and see what they pattern like. Oh and make sure your hitting the head end of the bird, aim for its eye, that way if you don`t kill him he will have had a very sharp poke in the eye and cant see where he is going and you can run after him! ! ! People missing or not being on target is more of an issue than the size of pellet. I think alot of people spend more time on here and talk the talk rather than walking the walk! Not all but a good % ! Edited January 2, 2011 by vmobiler1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebarrels Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 Get yourself some 28g 7 1/2 carts have a go with them mate, if you are on the target and at a sensible range you will be fine. If like some people have said that you would need more pellets to strike for a kill use a tighter choke simples!!! Get on a pettern plate and see what they pattern like. Oh and make sure your hitting the head end of the bird, aim for its eye, that way if you don`t kill him he will have had a very sharp poke in the eye and cant see where he is going and you can run after him! ! ! People missing or not being on target is more of an issue than the size of pellet. I think alot of people spend more time on here and talk the talk rather than walking the walk! Not all but a good % ! Quality BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the crowman Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 There is nothing wrong with 7 1/2 28g mate noble sporta £135 1000 knock them down no problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ME Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 what is a "PIDGEON" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 what is a "PIDGEON" ? wasn't his first name walter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 and why can't i post a picture of him to prove it? pants!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockers Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 I have tried anything from 4's loaded in error to 7.5's and without doubt get better cleaner kills with 6's at range. my mate gave me some 24g 6's and despite the lower weight they still hit hard even when roost shooting. I think on balance use what you are confident in and can afford which given the cost a slab these days makes me wish I left the semi more often Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 and why can't i post a picture of him to prove it? pants!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 I think on balance use what you are confident in and can afford which given the cost a slab these days Cost should never be a reason to use an inappropriate cartridge/ammo for any quarry. What next shooting deer with an air rifle because .243 ammo is getting expensive you know? If you can't afford the few extra pounds then take up a cheaper hobby or shoot a bit less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I use 28g 7 1/2's for my decoying and 7's for my roost shooting. If you can put the shot in the right place and don't fire at ridiculously long birds then you will knock them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantinos Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 My preference is 28g 6s, but personal to me to be honest - work nicely on pheasants, rabbits, pigeons, crows etc so covers my bases. Don't know where you are buying your cartridges from but it definitely is steep. In terms of the Kent's, the 7.5s are a UK 7 - they work out fine for pigeons if you want more pellets in your pattern. I have heard people go down to 9s for snipe, but I wouldn't risk smaller than 7s, personally on pigeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Paul Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Just to throw another view into the pot...... Should we all not be thinking about load as well as shot diameter?? 28g 7.5's, 28g 6's, 30g 6's or 32g 6's?? Let the next round begin!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Use the most appropriate cartridge for each task, just shop around and don't pay £280 x 1000. Example http://www.justcartridges.com/xtremegame.html I'm with Dekers just use these they seem to work very well. £200 per 1000 delivered isn't bad so you'd be saving £20 per 250 straight away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I am firmly in the using the correct cartridge camp. You are supposed to be shooting pigeons under the "Pest control" banner which really means shooting at every bird that is within shotgun range. By using clay loads means you cannot do this without risking significant wounding. I am quite sure that 7.5's will kill at 25 yards but what happens on the day when the pigeons don't really want to come into your pattern and skirt around it? Do you sit there all day twiddling your thumbs? The shot load has nothing to do with it, I regularly shoot pigeons with my 28bore with 21 gram loads. But I always use 6's My favourite 12 bore cartridge at the moment is an RC2 28gr no. 6 They really do the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I am firmly in the using the correct cartridge camp. You are supposed to be shooting pigeons under the "Pest control" banner which really means shooting at every bird that is within shotgun range. By using clay loads means you cannot do this without risking significant wounding. I am quite sure that 7.5's will kill at 25 yards but what happens on the day when the pigeons don't really want to come into your pattern and skirt around it? Do you sit there all day twiddling your thumbs? The shot load has nothing to do with it, I regularly shoot pigeons with my 28bore with 21 gram loads. But I always use 6's My favourite 12 bore cartridge at the moment is an RC2 28gr no. 6 They really do the business. i`m in the camp for using more than enough gun. the "6" is a great bird cartridge, i dont think i ever bothered using 7 on pigeon. i have used them on phesent, but they were close. i`d match cartridge to quarry. so for pigeons, minimum 1oz #6, up to 32g #6. for rabbits i like 5-4. and anything bigger, 2s. but the #6 is the minmum i`d ever consider on game. there are cheaper continental cartridges out there, some mentioned here certainly are in the top performance level. even a slow #6/5 will be a great pigeon cartridge. the pigeon shooters who use steel 7s, i am in 2 minds about, sure there are better cartridges out there, but they pattern very tight. and for £110 saving £90, per 1000. they are value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishermanpaddy Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 ive used d and j's in the past and there fine if the birds are comin close.there a 28g size 7 1/2.know what you meen about prices but ive just bought 250 ok carts made by nobel 30g size 5 for £45.can use them on clays to phesents and there are a clean cart compared to the d and j's. cheers daz Funny you should say that, I was out yesterday for the first time in best part of 2 months for a dab at the Woodies. I was missin rings around me with my usual (Kent Velocity 32g #6's) so I delved deep into the pockets of my coat and pulled out 2 of those D&J's and had a left and a right with them, they were well hit and did not require any dispatching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 This is all nonsense, if some people are doing OK with a certain shot size and other people are failing with the same it can't be the shot size at fault can it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 It matters not a jot how much total energy/pellets strikes the bird if the energy of the individual pellets is insufficient to penetrate the vitals. The smaller pellet will only penetrate better than a larger one provided it is compared to a larger pellet having the same energy. It is no good selecting a level of choke which gives the required 3 strikes to ensure a kill as that figure will only be realised on 58% of the shots taken. An average 6 pellet strike gives a 3 pellet strike on every shot to a 'sporting' degree of some 90%. Unless you shoot TC, the maximum effective pellet strike area rarely, if ever, exceed a 25" diameter circle. The empirical figure of the energy requirement to kill a pigeon given sufficient pellet strikes is 0.85ft/lbs. To cater for a less than perfect shot - one not hitting with the pellets at the very front (which is where the velocity measurement is taken and will contain very few pellets) of the pattern but the bulk of the pellets a tad further back in the shot string and to avoid working out what that energy actually is, it is easier to increase the energy requirement by, say, 20% and simply then use the advertised velocity/energy figures for the given choice of cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 For anyone not sure what to use and simply as a guide to be made use of or not as is deemed applicable: Within reason, what starts of quicker slows down quicker and down range the velocities pretty much equal out, so 1400 ft/sec is not to far off as a middle of the road MV. The energy figures below cease at the range where the given 0.85ft/lbs of energy empirically required to kill a pigeon plus 20% is not met at the next 5 yard increment. Pellet sizes are Engish, energy is ft/lbs and distance is yards. Range-----25-----30-----35-----40-----45-----50 No. 6------2.2----1.9----1.7-----1.5----1.3----1.1 No. 6.5---2.0-----1.7----1.5-----1.3----1.1 No. 7-----1.7-----1.5----1.3-----1.1 No.7.5---1.4-----1.2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 wymberley , I never knew you could kill pigeon with maths , I used lead and do not care if its 7.5 or 6 they all seem to fall out of the sky the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 wymberley , I never knew you could kill pigeon with maths , I used lead and do not care if its 7.5 or 6 they all seem to fall out of the sky the same. No problem; the first sentence of Post #48 applies.If your system kills pigeon at 50 yards using 71/2s I think I might give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 A classic day on good old Pigeon Watch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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