Now the Tornados may be going!

[triscrx]

On the news this evening after scrapping our Harrier Jets and Nimrod fleet it is now looking like our Tornados will also be going to save more ££

 

I don't think I can remember another period in my life when the global situation has been more fragile. Are the politicians so blind that they cant see we may well need strong capable capability to deal with what the future may hold. The saving in the big scheme of things is just a small drop in the ocean. Does it always take an event like the Falklands to make the politicians sit up and listen! :unsure:

 

Taking an Axe to our forces like they have with the other cutbacks is not a very sensible plan as we have seen in the past with the history of shocking delays in defense procurement and time taken to create these capability's! At this rate we will have Aircraft carriers with no Aircraft....

 

Oh hang on....

[CZ550Kevlar]

We have typhoons don`t we??

[rotten fish 4]

Should get rid of some of the top people who sit in office all day and do nothing

except give people orders and instructions....

 

Sure somebody on half their wages could do a better job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[triscrx]

oh that's alright then we have 1 type of Aircraft left..... :unsure:

 

Also irritates me that they keep comparing required capability to Afghanistan saying things are not really required now with warfare in Afghan. And afterwards?... Anybody thought about that or is that common sense?

Edited February 21, 2011 by triscrx

[roadkill]

were slowly going down the pan , will be the nukes program next that will be gone , god help this place in the next 20 years

[jacksdad]

We could scrap ALL our military and use the money to help more illegals and asylum seekers enjoy a free ride in the good old soft touch UK :blink:

[highseas]

whats gona hpeen is this.

we wil sell of all our jets and choppers then our subs will be sent to faslane to rot away. our aircraft carrier`s will also be scrapped as they cost to much to run and we dont have too much of a need for them right now.

but with most of our troops fighting an unwinable war in the desert and the rest of the middle east kicking up **** over their leaders.

how long is it befor mr pm or god knows who says " we will do like iraq" and sent 1000s of "peace keeping" troops to all the other places too. ohh hold on we cant we sold every thing,, se we cant get them their and if they do get their then they will have to fight with spears and sticks bullets cost too much you know.

money is better spent on baby incubators and abandond foxes,the goverment are too busey trying to stop rangerover over heating guillimots and the rest of the world. to see that very soon we will be up to our necks in it, again.

 

also who will we sell every thing too? america? its only a matter of time befor they kick up stink.

germany maybe? they have been far too quiet for too long if you ask me its not compost heaps at the end of their gardens its grandads sten and m98k

[scolopax]

trying to stop rangerover over heating guillimots

 

persecution of auks, love it

 

one of the oddest statements I seen on here for a while

 

Knock 10% off the NHS and 10% off social security budgets then we could start to get the military the equipment it needs to be multi role capable.

[jacksdad]

" trying to stop rangerover over heating guillimots "

 

WHAT :blink: Can someone explain please?

[Vipa]

Should get rid of some of the top people who sit in office all day and do nothing

except give people orders and instructions....

 

Sure somebody on half their wages could do a better job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Totally false economy.... Your average desk-bound middle/senior Officer in the RAF is on 50-60k... A Tornado costs £25,000 per hour to keep in the air... Let's say it flies 10 hours per week, That's £250,000 (1/4 mil) per week or £13,000,000 (thirteen million) a year in running costs or the equivalent of 260 RAF officers, let's take a small wing of 20 aircraft, that's the equivalent of 5,200 officers jobs... There would be no more management to run the force!!!

 

I know the workers and socialists among you think the world would do just fine without the management classes but, sadly, it wouldn't... Any industry, be-it defence or making crayons need those with technical, manual skill, those with management skills and those with ideas & vision... without a combination of all of them the machine just doesn't work.

[Vipa]

were slowly going down the pan , will be the nukes program next that will be gone , god help this place in the next 20 years

 

I agree, it is a scary thought, especially when I grew up through the cold war, when the threat of all out nuclear war was real..

 

The argument nowadays is that the 'threat' now comes from extremist enclaves of certain parts of society, mainly ethnic parts. So... who would you nuke in the event of a war? The threats no longer come from countries with cities, they come from secretive 'cell' that could be anywhere...

 

I personally think it would be rediculous to get rid of our nuclear deterrent (remember, we don't have many anyway, less than 200 now) but in the same breath, I really don't see what use it would be in todays world... The threats from nuclear ambitious states in the east are negligible... They will fight amongst themselves and wipe each other off the face of the planet before they get anywhere near our shores... That realistically leaves China, Russia and the terrorist threats... We can take the terrorist threat out of the equasion as, as was said earlier, even if they managed to detonate a nuke or dirty bomb on uk soil... who would we then retaliate against? China and Russia..... well... to be honest, if we get into a nuclear firefight with those boys, we wouldn't last 5 minutes so... one has to ask the question, is the cost (which is VERY significant) really worth it?

[Zapp]

There would be no more management to run the force!!!

 

I agree with your statement that getting rid of staff officers wouldnt offset that much when we are talking about the Tornado fleet, but I have to say you could get rid of an awful, awful lot of officers, particularly RAF ones, without any impact on the effective running of units.

 

Where I work is around 250% overborne on RAF Officers, and the amount of time spent keeping them out of the way and out of trouble is scary.

[Vipa]

I agree with your statement that getting rid of staff officers wouldnt offset that much when we are talking about the Tornado fleet, but I have to say you could get rid of an awful, awful lot of officers, particularly RAF ones, without any impact on the effective running of units.

 

Where I work is around 250% overborne on RAF Officers, and the amount of time spent keeping them out of the way and out of trouble is scary.

 

I don't disagree with you there Zapp... our security services (more so other branches than the RAF) are all very top heavy... and could do with a little more thoughtful 'balance' but when compared with the running costs of a naval or air fleet, the wage bill is largely insignificant.

[pegasus bridge]

well, we need to make cuts to keep sending £280 million a year to India, one of the fasting growing economies... with more billionaires than the UK..... hmm.

[Fisherman Mike]

As an Island Nation the Strength of our Navy and laterly the RAF has been our salvation and protection during conflict or threat of invasion. Its been this way since the 16th Century.

 

I am completely against these stringent cuts in our Armed Forces.

 

This cut cut cut policy is akin to slash and burn and what is lost can never be recovered..

 

The National meltdown of society, commerce and industy has started and I hope to God that the two schoolboys are redundant by Christmas 2011 or it will be miserable time for all of us.

 

Dont give me all this big defecit ****....I know we have one, but when are people going to realise that all of the money pumped into the public sector over the last 10 years has been completely warranted due to our ever burgeoning population... The Health Authority is an easy target for The Government particularly as successive Tory Governments have tried to undermine it since its inception.

 

They can and never will come to terms with the fact that it was instigated by a Labour Government and this fact really gnaws away at their culture.

 

If you think this winter has been Bleak you havent seen anything yet.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Fisherman Mike

[Cranfield]

There is a persuasive argument that says we should stop considering ourselves the Worlds Policeman (along with the USA), keep our Armed Forces for the defence of our own country and stop fighting other peoples wars.

[Fisherman Mike]

There is a persuasive argument that says we should stop considering ourselves the Worlds Policeman (along with the USA), keep our Armed Forces for the defence of our own country and stop fighting other peoples wars.

 

 

Thats true but as long as we ( and the Americans particularly ) depend so heavily on that black stuff that comes out of the ground any thoughts of such can be abandoned.

[al4x]

So Fisherman Mike all the spending is warranted what do you propose to do when our borrowing ability runs out? If any of us ran our personal finances the same way we would be bankrupt long before now. The slash and burn is necessary to try and get the finances to balance its been left long enough and the sums just don't add up

 

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

[Fisherman Mike]

There is no analogy between fiscal spending and personal spending. If there was indeed we would all be queuing at the breadline now. The only way to safeguard future services which have been built up in the last 15 years is to continue to invest in them and not by radical and draconian cuts.

 

We NEED, Housing, Schools, Hospitals, Surgeries, Universities, Colleges, Leisure Facilities, etc and the support staff and facilities which accompanies them to support a population which has grown to 61 million since the start of the millennium.

 

On Cranfields theme of self policing why do we not consider self financing as well, why don’t we indeed consider severing our economy from that of Europe and America, why does our economy suffer because of fiscal policy made in Brussels or Washington.

Why do we need to borrow?

 

Sadly this country which was once one of the greatest commercial and industrial giants of the new world has been reduced to being the bastion of global world aid. Just look at any high street in any town in the country and you won’t see Building Societies and Estate Agents moreover Charity shops and Closing Down hoardings.

 

If the current trend continues 3.0 million unemployed by this time next year will be a “Conservative” estimate. Where do you think all the money required to support the unemployed and welfare state of this magnitude is going to come from ?….certainly not the Private sector, who are already being squeezed with taxation, VAT and levy to an extent where many Blue chip companies are teetering on the verge of insolvency.

[al4x]

Built up services or ones bloated by spending and inefficiencies

[Sprackles]

There is no analogy between fiscal spending and personal spending. If there was indeed we would all be queuing at the breadline now. The only way to safeguard future services which have been built up in the last 15 years is to continue to invest in them and not by radical and draconian cuts.

 

We NEED, Housing, Schools, Hospitals, Surgeries, Universities, Colleges, Leisure Facilities, etc and the support staff and facilities which accompanies them to support a population which has grown to 61 million since the start of the millennium.

 

On Cranfields theme of self policing why do we not consider self financing as well, why don’t we indeed consider severing our economy from that of Europe and America, why does our economy suffer because of fiscal policy made in Brussels or Washington.

Why do we need to borrow?

 

Sadly this country which was once one of the greatest commercial and industrial giants of the new world has been reduced to being the bastion of global world aid. Just look at any high street in any town in the country and you won’t see Building Societies and Estate Agents moreover Charity shops and Closing Down hoardings.

 

If the current trend continues 3.0 million unemployed by this time next year will be a “Conservative” estimate. Where do you think all the money required to support the unemployed and welfare state of this magnitude is going to come from ?….certainly not the Private sector, who are already being squeezed with taxation, VAT and levy to an extent where many Blue chip companies are teetering on the verge of insolvency.

 

How many immigrants did the last lot in power let in.....but for that, the demand for housing and other services would be nowhere near as great.

Lets cut back on the benefits bill and scroungers, both legal and illegal.

Ditch the aid to countries that dont need it...we give aid to Pakistan yet they are about to overtake us as a nuclear power.

but most importantly, as we are talking about things we cant afford, lets ditch the EU.

 

There, thats a few billion ib the bank already.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Sprackles

[Vipa]

There is no analogy between fiscal spending and personal spending. If there was indeed we would all be queuing at the breadline now. The only way to safeguard future services which have been built up in the last 15 years is to continue to invest in them and not by radical and draconian cuts.

 

We NEED, Housing, Schools, Hospitals, Surgeries, Universities, Colleges, Leisure Facilities, etc and the support staff and facilities which accompanies them to support a population which has grown to 61 million since the start of the millennium.

 

On Cranfields theme of self policing why do we not consider self financing as well, why dont we indeed consider severing our economy from that of Europe and America, why does our economy suffer because of fiscal policy made in Brussels or Washington.

Why do we need to borrow?

 

Sadly this country which was once one of the greatest commercial and industrial giants of the new world has been reduced to being the bastion of global world aid. Just look at any high street in any town in the country and you wont see Building Societies and Estate Agents moreover Charity shops and Closing Down hoardings.

 

If the current trend continues 3.0 million unemployed by this time next year will be a Conservative estimate. Where do you think all the money required to support the unemployed and welfare state of this magnitude is going to come from ?….certainly not the Private sector, who are already being squeezed with taxation, VAT and levy to an extent where many Blue chip companies are teetering on the verge of insolvency.

 

 

Your arguments are funadmentally wrong Mike.... from a macro economic standpoint, public sector spending and growth have an overall negative effect on growth and output..

 

In very simplistic terms, the Private sector creates wealth and therefore growth, the public sector is only capable of spending & absorbing, not creating wealth. So, the old argument (and it is an old argument, thought up in a bygone era when things domestically and internationally were very different) about spending your way out of recession just doesn't work anymore..

 

We need the private sector to regain some confidence and to start growing and therefore creating wealth. The only way to do this is to get the books back in the black (as they were when the reigns were handed to Labour last time! and after the Tories had spent many years dealing with the financial mess the previous Labour gov't had left them with (there is a cycle here if you hadn't noticed ))

 

You will argue that by the state building schools and hospitals and other types of public sector spending they are creating jobs and allows the private sector to grow but in reality ALL the money for these projects and ultimately these newly created jobs etc comes from the public purse. Where does this money come from? taxation, tax revenue is falling because of the cuts so where else can the money come from? Borrow it! The problem there is that it is an ever decreasing circle... As the interest payments go up on the loans there is less money for the projects so they have to borrow more so the interest payments go up etc... etc...

 

It is a total mess... created solely by the Labour Gov't... they have done it before and will continue doing it in the future. If they do it again in the short term this country will end up bankrupt with all the problems that brings.

 

Spending your way out of trouble may have worked in the 50s and 60s but it can't work in a 21st century global economy.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Vipa

[Breastman]

The only way to do this is to get the books back in the black (as they were when the reigns were handed to Labour last time! and after the Tories had spent many years dealing with the financial mess the previous Labour gov't had left them with (there is a cycle here if you hadn't noticed ))

 

 

And bingo was his name-o!

 

Mark

[shaun4860]

As an Island Nation the Strength of our Navy and laterly the RAF has been our salvation and protection during conflict or threat of invasion. Its been this way since the 16th Century.

 

I am completely against these stringent cuts in our Armed Forces.

 

This cut cut cut policy is akin to slash and burn and what is lost can never be recovered..

 

The National meltdown of society, commerce and industy has started and I hope to God that the two schoolboys are redundant by Christmas 2011 or it will be miserable time for all of us.

 

Dont give me all this big defecit ****....I know we have one, but when are people going to realise that all of the money pumped into the public sector over the last 10 years has been completely warranted due to our ever burgeoning population... The Health Authority is an easy target for The Government particularly as successive Tory Governments have tried to undermine it since its inception.

 

They can and never will come to terms with the fact that it was instigated by a Labour Government and this fact really gnaws away at their culture.

 

If you think this winter has been Bleak you havent seen anything yet.

 

thats it..... then we can vote labour back in, them that caused all this in the first place

 

labour were over the moon to lose the last election because otherwise they would have to clear up their own mess and would have been found out sooner..

 

shaun

[Imperfection]

There is a persuasive argument that says we should stop considering ourselves the Worlds Policeman (along with the USA), keep our Armed Forces for the defence of our own country and stop fighting other peoples wars.

 

I think Europe might have been a much different place had we done that in 1939.