Dealing with SANDBAGGERS

[Chokemeister]

What are we going to do about CPSA classification abuse, eg the dreaded SANDBAGGER?

 

This is the good (often very good) shot that persistently and deliberately underscores to keep in a lower CPSA class, only to then appear with magical new shooting ability on the day of a money competition and win at much higher class shooting ability.

 

I know a long-time A-class shot, who very quickly got himself down into C class, then scooped the dosh at a major compy with an AA class score, my, what a surprise, must be 'magic'.

 

What's wrong you old ******, need another £1000 to get your game up do we?

 

That same shot, I am watching him on the CPSA scores database (anyone can) after that major comp, he has immediately reverted to C class scores again, NOTHING LIKE his AA-class performance of the day when money was on the table.

 

Why must real up-and-coming shooters in the lower classes, lose their prize money to this wily old SANDBAGGER? £1000 (cash and prizes) taken in imho, dishonestly.

 

Of course, I'm talking about a specific person, but on doing my own deeper research it appears the practise is widespread.

 

CPSA, GET OFF YOUR **** THIS STINKS!

 

IT'S SO BLOODY OBVIOUS.

[paulos]

Every dog has his day I've no doubt that it goes on, but its nowhere near as widespread as some would have you believe.

[canthitathing]

Every dog has his day I've no doubt that it goes on, but its nowhere near as widespread as some would have you believe.

 

 

I totally agree. Paulos is in class A and shoots like a class C :lol:

[paulos]

I used to be AA for a while! My fall from fleeting grace is in no way intentional either, I can assure you!

[Hamster]

I totally agree. Paulos is in class A and shoots like a class C :lol:

 

 

Phew,...............so relieved you didn`t leave out class .

 

I agree, it must go on a bit but can`t be all that widespread as they would soon be found out. The reverse situation is not all that rare though, there have been times when poor scores have been binned to save face. It even goes on in open comps, how often have you seen a decent shot at a shoot only for their card to be missing from the hand-in hut?

 

I`ve had a strange situation lately myself, although I have made it into AA before a loss of form and dropping out of the CPSA for a while dropped me back into A, or so I thought. A while ago I entered Southdowns 100 ESP and 100 Sportrap on the same day expecting to be put into A having checked online the night before. I was mighty surprised to be told I was in AA :o , so shot with no argument.

Yesterday I shot Hornet 100 ESP reg and told I was A, Ed Solomons checked online with his mobile and confirmed this so that`s what I accepted. The way I look at it is that I may well have had potential winnings docked had I shot in A at Southdown , so who knows, what goes round comes round?

 

The other thing is that A class can be the hardest to win at as there are a lot of nearly excellent shots out there .

[Nogbad]

You think some CPSA shooters are working the old score card flanker you should take a look at the golfing comps.

 

There have always been high single figure handicappers who are in reality scratch golfers. Its been going on since the day they invented the game mate same goes for clay comps.

[Chokemeister]

I hear what you guys are saying.

 

That the old rogue I know is sandbagging, I have no doubt. He has, since that BIG MONEY competition, put in quite a lot of very C-class scores.

 

In fact, only an experienced, competent shot could be that flippin consistent to manage his C (cough cough!) classification like that.

 

At the BIG MONEY shoot, the line graph of his 100-bird scores spiked up like a Jupiter rocket... then PROMPTLY crashed back down for EVERY SHOOT HE HAS DONE SINCE.

 

Surely, we need a look at the rules. Someone beginning, coming from nowhere can bag C class, then B, A and so on. That's natural and fair, even if due to the CPSA classification 'season' delays it means they shoot in C but know they are B or even A class in their skill. It's still fair.

 

But for anyone having shot in the top classes, to be suddenly scratching around in C-class for cash, needs close attention.

 

By that I mean, posting a AA-class score for 3 days to blag money, then IMMEDIATELY revert back to C-class scores to hibernate until their once-a-year big-money fishing trip, should be stopped.

 

I'm on the verge of naming names. I'm still seething seeing that ignored like that. My experiences are, that some people can be very defensive of SANDBAGGERS.

 

I don't confuse people downgraded in class due to illness like strokes, hard times or whatever. A modicum of common sense needs to be applied to show those doing clear management of their class.

 

What's my beef? It's cheating, we pay expensive entry fees to have a crack in our class, and THESE THIEVES do nothing less that STEAL from us.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Chokemeister

[Ian E]

So how would you solve the problem ?

 

More regular re-classification ?

 

Rolling Classification, over say a 3 shoots

 

Longer Classification periods ?

 

Any scores above 10% of your average are ignored ?

 

I'm interested to see how you would like to sort the problem out bar you shooting this guy

[Chard]

This has been churned over many times. I can't see a system that would work, other than being brutal and keeping shooters perpetually in the class that they attained at their best. If you get to AA Class, you stay there for ever. It would end sandbagging overnight, but would penalise ageing or ill shooters who suffer a decline in ability.

 

I'm all for it personally, though I can see that it would be a bit tough on some shooters, who are not shooting as well as they once did

[timps]

I'm all for it personally

 

I Bet you would B

[Hamster]

Chokemeister, please PM me this chaps CPSA number. The trouble with highest attained to count for ever is that we`d all end up in AA and believe me getting spanked by the big hitters is no picnic.

[Nogbad]

So how would you solve the problem ?

 

Believe me the golfing crowd have been tring to resolve this one for years and have never come up with a viable solution.

 

At the end of the day you can only legislate to a certain degree. After that you have to rely upon the individuals honesty, morals and ethics.

 

We all know what happens to those 3 things when money gets put into the equation.

[Mr Potter]

Chokemeister,

 

You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet about this particular individual and you may or may not have good reason BUT I agree with the student (Paulos) "Every dog has his day I've no doubt that it goes on, but its nowhere near as widespread as some would have you believe"

 

Your man may have just had that day when no matter where you point your gun, the clay breaks I am a shooter who has spent the last 10 years (or more) at the top end of A class, try as I might and believe me I've tried I can't get into AA and that is where I want to be. About 3 months ago I had that "dog has his day" day, a 96 at Catton Hall but on a re-entry day not a registered day unfortunately. High Gun, £125 in the wallet so I'm only about £6,875 out of pocket this year and the 15 mins of "fame" that Andy Warhol promised us all. So what I'm saying is that this one off big score is possible and I'm the proof.

 

There are other, more compelling arguments to doubt your reading of this chaps big win. To put it bluntly the finances of such a strategy just don't stack up. To deliberately shoot badly for a sufficiently long period of time to either end up or remain in C class takes not only a degree in mathematics but an awful lot of money.

If you spend 3 years "practicing" at shooting badly at lets say 25 registered shoots per year at an average cost of £50 per shoot (£25 b/o entry, £15 carts & £10 fuel) then it's cost you nearly four grand to win one. I don't know which shoot your man won (that might just give away his identity ) but to go to a major shoot almost certainly up against all the best shots in the UK and bet on winning!! well I don't think any of the AAA shots are that confident. I'll be honest here I think there are one or two shots about who are shooting in a class below their ability but whether deliberately or by accident I don't know but I am equally convinced there are no AAA or AA class shooters sandbagging in C class.

 

As a final thought, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster who said that some shooters are manipulating their scores, by either not submitting cards or not trying when they are on course for a below par score, in order to either stay in or get into a higher class. This is, as was said, a vanity thing and could and well cost the person winnings i.e. AA class shooter wants to stay in that class but has very little realistic chance of picking up but if classified down to A class could just pick up an envelope now and again.

 

Anyone want to tell me how it's done :yp: :yp: 'cos I'd give my left ******* to get into AA irrespective of chances of future winnings, I'm just about on course for finally doing it this year but I've still got nearly 5 months to **** it up.

 

Mr Potter

[Azzurri]

Chokemeister, please PM me this chaps CPSA number. The trouble with highest attained to count for ever is that we`d all end up in AA and believe me getting spanked by the big hitters is no picnic.

 

Hi H,

 

We talked about this kind of thing a while ago,96 on hard targets in thick fog

 

Full evidence was given to cpsa by a friend of mine....NO ACTION WAS TAKEN

 

Personally i just go out and shoot my targets and leave the cheating ******** to get on with it,i don't like it,the cpsa are fully aware of it but still refuse to clean up our sport.

 

An ex cpsa official once said to me 'Give me the evidence and i'll sort the cheats out'

Well the cpsa had the evidence when this official was still 'an official' and did nothing about it when they had the power to

 

 

Azzurri.

[Mr Potter]

Hi H,

 

We talked about this kind of thing a while ago,96 on hard targets in thick fog

 

Full evidence was given to cpsa by a friend of mine....NO ACTION WAS TAKEN

 

Personally i just go out and shoot my targets and leave the cheating ******** to get on with it,i don't like it,the cpsa are fully aware of it but still refuse to clean up our sport.

 

An ex cpsa official once said to me 'Give me the evidence and i'll sort the cheats out'

Well the cpsa had the evidence when this official was still 'an official' and did nothing about it when they had the power to

 

 

Azzurri.

 

 

Azzurri,

 

That doesn't sound like sandbagging but plain old fashioned CHEATING.

 

Mr Potter

[Mungler]

There's not the serious money or prizes in registered shooting to make sandbagging a full time hobby.

 

I just get hacked off when you look at the scores for large competitions and you find that C Class was won with a score not half a dozen off the A class winning score and so on.

 

As it goes, B Class seems to be the best class to bandit in - people on the climb want to get into A class asap and the serious sandbaggers reckon C class is the basement from which they would be best suited to ply their wares - the problem is that C class is full of sand baggers and so they face stiff competition from fellow sandbaggers

 

EDIT

 

My own view is that the classification system should take into account the number of targets shot - if you shot 5000 targets in one season and were still in C class then you are clearly a sandbagger - it is just not possible to get that much shooting in and not better C class.

 

I reckon that has the makings of an idea © Mungler 2011, all rights reserved.

 

EDIT EDIT

 

If someone wanted to effect change then they should state their intentions on here and start sandbagging as a case in point. Anyone in A class now fancy throwing a few comps, getting into C class and going for high gun in C class say in the Essex Masters and picking up a shiney new Beretta in the process?

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mungler

[Emmsy]

only one way to stop it, that is to ditch payout in classes and just payout on top scores.

pay say top 15 places rather than top 3AA 4A 4B 4C etc.

sadly the ones to complain about that will be the lower classes saying its not fair.

gets rid of the bagger problem though and rewards those who actually put the effort in.

[Fatcatsplat]

 

if you shot 5000 targets in one season and were still in C class then you are clearly a sandbagger - it is just not possible to get that much shooting in and not better C class.

 

I reckon that has the makings of an idea © Mungler 2011, all rights reserved.

 

 

 

Absolute codswallop - I'm living proof of this ;-)

[Chard]

only one way to stop it, that is to ditch payout in classes and just payout on top scores.

pay say top 15 places rather than top 3AA 4A 4B 4C etc.

sadly the ones to complain about that will be the lower classes saying its not fair.

gets rid of the bagger problem though and rewards those who actually put the effort in.

 

Problem with that is that they might as well do away with the classification system altogether then, as there wouldn't seem to be any point to it.

 

They also wouldn't get many lower class shooters bothering to enter the comp, which would deplete the prize fund. Most A, B & C class shooters would probably switch to birds only (me included)

[magman]

Sand baggers there's a few on here

[HDAV]

Sand baggers there's a few on here

don't you mean Tea baggers?

[Gordon R]

I agree with Mr Potter about the economics of shooting many low scores, in the hope that you can pull a high score out of the bag at will. Can't see it happening - widespread. The odd idiot might just do it. They must be truly sad.

 

I have seen people rip up their entry without handing in a card, in order to retain a higher classification - at Registered events.

[beretta]

Sand baggers there's a few on here

 

 

 

yup :good: sure is. ;)

[EdSolomons]

I think mr potter hit the nail on the head- you have to have a bad grasp of numbers if you think it's worth shooting bad for a year to win one or two shoots. It may well happen but more for "pride" if it could be called that.

As for people having big scores in the lower classes the fact that most folk gloss over now is that sporting has been softened up an awful lot over the past few years and that shrinks the gap between those at the top and a improving shooter in C/B class. There are the odd one who does it but on a steady course and an in form club shooter you would be surprised how well they can do.

And Mr P, give me a shout on facebook and if you want to get into AA we can have a chat.

 

Ed

[magman]

I think mr potter hit the nail on the head- you have to have a bad grasp of numbers if you think it's worth shooting bad for a year to win one or two shoots. It may well happen but more for "pride" if it could be called that.

As for people having big scores in the lower classes the fact that most folk gloss over now is that sporting has been softened up an awful lot over the past few years and that shrinks the gap between those at the top and a improving shooter in C/B class. There are the odd one who does it but on a steady course and an in form club shooter you would be surprised how well they can do.

And Mr P, give me a shout on facebook and if you want to get into AA we can have a chat.

 

Ed

 

In a recession i think you may call it survival i agree when you get C class shooters shooting 80+ , look at the shugborough scores the ground comes up for sale and all of a sudden its seems an easy shoot just to attract shooters ?

Late 80's or early nineties should be high gun , then you no you deserved high gun