PC Harwood

[kdubya]

 

 

 

KW, by your posts in this and a number of topics, you seem to have a blind view against the police as a whole, is there a reason for this?.

 

Your assumption that I have a BLIND view is so far off the mark it is laughable, my view is based on having my eyes wide open and weighing up events and FACTS, my opinion of plod and yes there ARE good coppers out there is that the service is institutionally corrupt and that it has gone from protect and serve to control,and bully.

 

I have a number of friends who either were or still are police officers one is a serving CID officer they know and sometimes tell of the way it really is, still all plod should be respected eh ,even the bad one's oh and I see another bent sod is being looked at at this moment for lying under oath (another high profile case where the defendants got off scot free!) anyway ever heard of operation lancet another multi million pound plod joke.

 

KW

[poontang]

yes, an inquest ruled he HAD been UNLAWFULLY KILLED he did NOT die from his illness and not as result of him being ****** and falling over.

 

KW

 

And a court jury found Harwood NOT GUILTY of manslaughter.

[kdubya]

No I haven't and twist my words all you like. I couldent give a toss.

 

Harry

 

thats the problem you should give a toss, as events like this bring down the good cops as they do become tarred with the same brush, in fact you should move heaven and earth to get rid of the rouges (problem is I dont think its the odd rouge is it) I thought you out of all the serving lads on here had a more rational view, you disappoint me over this case.

 

KW

 

And a court jury found Harwood NOT GUILTY of manslaughter.

 

yes an had tommy cooper been alive that one would have gone in his joke book.

 

KW

Edited July 20, 2012 by kdubya

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

yes an had tommy cooper been alive that one would have gone in his joke book.

 

KW

 

 

Maybe, maybe not, but the fact is he was found not guilty.

 

There are big differences in how a coroners inquest works and how a court case runs, so it's not really surprising the outcomes were different.

 

You're quite right in saying that PC Harwood falls way below the standard we should expect from our police, but that doesn't automatically make him guilty of manslaughter in this case.

 

There either wasn't the evidence to prove the case OR (and more likely) the prosecution couldn't present the evidence in a way that convinced the jury.

I would assume the evidence used was similar to that used at the inquest. The only difference I can see is that PC Harwood used the same QC whereas Ian Tomlinson's family used a different QC to the one who successfully got them an unlawful killing verdict. Maybe that was where their case fell down? Who knows?

Of course there was a different jury too, and different people can be swayed by different things. It's the way the justice system works in this country, perhaps 12 others would have found him guilty and we wouldn't be having this conversation?

[storme37]

 

 

There either wasn't the evidence to prove the case OR (and more likely) the prosecution couldn't present the evidence in a way that convinced the jury.

I would assume the evidence used was similar to that used at the inquest. The only difference I can see is that PC Harwood used the same QC whereas Ian Tomlinson's family used a different QC to the one who successfully got them an unlawful killing verdict. Maybe that was where their case fell down? Who knows?

Of course there was a different jury too, and different people can be swayed by different things. It's the way the justice system works in this country, perhaps 12 others would have found him guilty and we wouldn't be having this conversation?

this seems fair enough, basically i think he got lucky and got away with it but lessons learned i doubt he will be on the beat again.

[Sprackles]

Reading his past he shouldn't have been in the job at all.

Left the Met in 2001 to avoid disciplinary then rejoined as a civvy 3 years later before rejoining as a bobby after that.

Speaks volumes for the Met does that and installs confidence...NOT.

[Dirty Harry]

thats the problem you should give a toss, as events like this bring down the good cops as they do become tarred with the same brush, in fact you should move heaven and earth to get rid of the rouges (problem is I dont think its the odd rouge is it) I thought you out of all the serving lads on here had a more rational view, you disappoint me over this case.

KW

 

Twisting my words again

 

Do I give a toss about you twisting my words and making it suit your argument......no.

You seem quite good at tarring us all with the same brush and jump on the police bashing bandwagon at every opportunity. Does that bother me.....no because I know some people hate the police. Whatever the reason but that will not stop me doing my best when they phone up needing my help.

If I thought I was working with a copper who was bent, corrupt or overstepping the mark I would be the first to do something about it.

Reason being if I don't challenge it I become party to it and I'm not loosing my job for someone else's mistakes.

 

Harry

[Fisherman Mike]

I think the truth is that an incredibly expensive and (probably) old Etonian barrister picked because he came from exactly the right chambers and paid for by the police union struck a deal with the Judge that vast swathes of the copper's history of complaints and violent behaviour in the past would be ruled inadmissable. How the judge directs the subsequent case can have a profound effect but if one of his juniors barresters from the same chambers is defending the case there is going to be an easy ride.

 

On the other hand if the defence barrister had been from a hated rival chambers every "i" would have to have been dotted and every "t" would have to have been crossed.

 

I wonder how much many of you realise just how uneven a playing field the law really is and by how much you can improve your odds by paying the right £4000 a day barrister to defend you. Clearly the Police Unions do.

 

There are lawyers on this forum, I know there are. Just answer me this - am I wrong?

 

 

Fundamentally yes you are...

[Fisherman Mike]

Twisting my words again

 

Do I give a toss about you twisting my words and making it suit your argument......no.

You seem quite good at tarring us all with the same brush and jump on the police bashing bandwagon at every opportunity. Does that bother me.....no because I know some people hate the police. Whatever the reason but that will not stop me doing my best when they phone up needing my help.

If I thought I was working with a copper who was bent, corrupt or overstepping the mark I would be the first to do something about it.

Reason being if I don't challenge it I become party to it and I'm not loosing my job for someone else's mistakes.

 

Harry

 

 

Some people seem so anti establishment its untrue...and their acrimony seems to be directed vehemently at her Majesty's police force at every opportunity. I wonder what their Local FLO would make of their opinions of them if they happened on this site, could identify the posters, and were considering their licence renewel :o

 

The best justice system in the world found him not guilty twice....end of story.

[JDog]

I think that you will find that PC Harwood will quietly leave the Police Force, though he will not escape from the reality of what he has done for the rest of his life.

[Sprackles]

Scotland Yard has apologised for re-employing a riot policeman with a chequered disciplinary record after he was acquitted of killing Ian Tomlinson at the G20 protests in London in 2009.

The jury at Southwark crown court, who took four days to clear PC Simon Harwood of manslaughter on a majority verdict, was not told that the officer had been investigated a number of other times for alleged violence and misconduct.

Harwood quit the Metropolitan police on health grounds in 2001, shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims that while off-duty he illegally tried to arrest a man in a road rage incident, altering notes retrospectively to justify his actions.

He was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, returning to the Met in 2005. In a string of other alleged incidents Harwood was accused of having punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform, although only one complaint was upheld.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission described the chain of events around Harwood's rejoining his old force before becoming part of its elite Territorial Support Group as "simply staggering".

During the trial the officer accepted he was wrong in retrospect to have hit Tomlinson on the back of the leg and shoved him to the pavement as the 47-year-old walked slowly away from police lines on the evening of 1 April 2009, but told an often emotional trial that he believed at the time the action had been necessary.

The trial hinged on two key questions: first, whether Harwood's actions amounted to a criminal assault; second, whether they directly led to Tomlinson's death. After three days of deliberation, the jury was unable to reach a unanimous verdict, suggesting they were unconvinced by one or both of these two key prosecution claims. Told by the judge they could return a majority 10 to two verdict, they found Harwood not guilty.

On Thursday a friend of Harwood's claimed that evidence from a trauma specialist, Alastair Wilson, who raised the hypothesis that analysis of Tomlinson's blood indicated his internal bleeding could have started before the fall, had been crucial to the acquittal.

"It was a vital piece of evidence that wasn't heard at the inquest. He was never guilty of manslaughter. He may have been guilty of assault for the baton strike, but he didn't kill him."

Tomlinson's widow and nine children and step-children gasped and walked out of the public gallery weeping when the verdict was announced.

Harwood, 45, dressed in a dark suit, cried quietly in the dock before being embraced by his wife, Helen.

The verdict brings to an end one of the most high-profile cases of alleged police misconduct in recent years. The IPCC initially declined to independently investigate Tomlinson's death.

But it reversed the decision after the Guardian released video footage, recorded by a US businessman, showing Tomlinson being struck with a baton and pushed to the ground by a police officer.

The case leaves in its wake something of a legal quandary: last year, after hearing similar evidence, an inquest jury ruled that Tomlinson was "unlawfully killed" by a police officer. They did so on the same standard of proof – beyond reasonable doubt. Neither jury was told about Harwood's chequered disciplinary background.

Tomlinson's family said they would now take civil action against the Met, while the force said that it would hold Harwood to account in a public disciplinary hearing.

The Met's deputy assistant commissioner, Maxine de Brunner, conceded that Harwood should never have been allowed to re-join the force.

"It is clear that insufficient recording and checks meant that detailed information regarding the officer's misconduct history was not shared at key points. We got that wrong. Since then there have been huge changes to vetting processes. Now all applicants, including officers applying to becoming police staff, as well those re-joining or transferring from other police services, are formally vetted and this involves a full misconduct intelligence check."

De Brunner did not explicitly apologise to Tomlinson's family, saying only that their "sympathies" were with them.

Outside the court, Tomlinson's stepson, Paul King, statementread a brief : "It really hurts. But this is not the end – we are not giving up on justice for Ian. There has to be one formal and final answer to the question: 'Who killed Ian?' And we will now pursue this in the civil court." He was too emotional to answer questions.

Harwood and his wife left soon afterwards, and gave no comment.

British juries are notoriously reluctant to convict police for serious alleged crimes carried out on duty. No police officer has been found guilty of manslaughter in 25 years, despite hundreds of cases in which families have alleged wrongdoing.

[debaser]

Your assumption that I have a BLIND view is so far off the mark it is laughable, my view is based on having my eyes wide open and weighing up events and FACTS, my opinion of plod and yes there ARE good coppers out there is that the service is institutionally corrupt and that it has gone from protect and serve to control,and bully.

 

I have a number of friends who either were or still are police officers one is a serving CID officer they know and sometimes tell of the way it really is, still all plod should be respected eh ,even the bad one's oh and I see another bent sod is being looked at at this moment for lying under oath (another high profile case where the defendants got off scot free!) anyway ever heard of operation lancet another multi million pound plod joke.

 

KW

 

Again we have sweeping generalisations, "institutionally corrupt" got any credible evidence to back this up?

When we have a story about a rogue sportsman/gamekeeper/FAC-SGC holder we all jump on it, yet seem to put all the 135,000 police or so in the same bracket when theres a story like this.

Can I ask what you do for a living then? After all, no matter what it is, I'm sure there are a few bad apples in your trade/profession.

[shaun4860]

I think that you will find that PC Harwood will quietly leave the Police Force, though he will not escape from the reality of what he has done for the rest of his life.

 

Do you really think he will be bothered by this, I personally don't

 

Hopefully now the Met's disciplinary investigation will rule he was guilty of something and he will be booted out, loss of pension.

 

I also watched on the news that NO police officer charged with manslaughter whilst on duty has ever been found guilty :unsure:

 

You get thugs in all walks of life from footballers to policemen, this will never change,

 

[Gordon R]

It does seem slightly odd that a number of people happily accept the Coroner's verdict of unlawful killing, but refuse to accept the not guilty of manslaughter. Do they only accept verdicts that they agree with?

 

Both were lawful verdicts under our legal system. Just accept it.

 

Perhaps the CPS aimed a little high in response to public outcry. Always a recipe for disaster.

 

For the record, I believe this particular officer is a cowardly bully, hiding behind a uniform.

[Muddy Funker]

He was always going to be found not guilty of Manslaughter in my opinion.

 

What I would say though is that there should be a conviction for assualt in relation to the baton strike, that would see him out of the job minus pension.

 

There is no way on earth he could have forseen what the outcome would be, drunk bloke, underlying health issues ect,,, hundreds of people would have been pushed/hit that day without issue.

 

However, I don't think the force used was reasonable in the circumstances, the bottom line is it was an old bloke being obstructive at best, he wasn't posing a threat and he was leaving the area (slowly). It's really hard to see clearly but if that baton strike did go in then that should be the focus. The push could be justified I don't think the strike ever could.

 

Red mist which allegedly Harwood was known for anyway, looks like it got the better of him again. He doesn't deserve to wear the uniform.

 

I'm a copper too, and I've also had complaints. It's true that they can only be avoided if you never leave the office like some. Most have been for silly things and have never been upheld. I've been hurt and have had to hurt people but have never had a complaint from anyone for excess force so I'm glad I'm getting that right.

 

There's no smoke without fire though eh, if complaints are racking up against an officer then it's only right they should be looked at closely, especially if it's always in relation to similar things.

[Vince Green]

Some people seem so anti establishment its untrue...and their acrimony seems to be directed vehemently at her Majesty's police force at every opportunity. I wonder what their Local FLO would make of their opinions of them if they happened on this site, could identify the posters, and were considering their licence renewel :o

 

The best justice system in the world found him not guilty twice....end of story.

And some people are so pro police that will never hear a word said against them. The point is this is just the latest in a catalogue of deaths at police hands where much to everyone's great suprise nobody seems to be at fault.

[Fisherman Mike]

And some people are so pro police that will never hear a word said against them. The point is this is just the latest in a catalogue of deaths at police hands where much to everyone's great suprise nobody seems to be at fault.

 

 

 

Proof

[Mungler]

It does seem slightly odd that a number of people happily accept the Coroner's verdict of unlawful killing, but refuse to accept the not guilty of manslaughter. Do they only accept verdicts that they agree with?

 

Both were lawful verdicts under our legal system. Just accept it.

 

Perhaps the CPS aimed a little high in response to public outcry. Always a recipe for disaster.

 

For the record, I believe this particular officer is a cowardly bully, hiding behind a uniform.

 

 

 

 

Not guilty is not guilty.

 

Getting all shouty on a forum about it serves no purpose.

 

The system isn't perfect but it's the best we have and probably the best in the world. Just be pleased that we have a system which allowed this matter to be brought to light and tested in a Court in front of a jury.

 

My gripe is that it wasn't until the mobile phone footage from the Yank bloke came to light and the Guardian grabbed hold of it that it got an airing. The IPCC and CPS wouldn't even open a file before, which is a bit naughty given that the copper in question had form for getting fisty and going OTT and so the matter should have been given the once over at the earliest stage. Indeed, wind it back one stage further, the copper should never have been back in the Met.

 

That being said, the system evolves and develops. Whilst other problems will come to light over time, and other flawes will become apparent, those holes will get plugged and changes for the better implemented.

 

And relax.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Mungler

[kdubya]

Some people seem so anti establishment its untrue...and their acrimony seems to be directed vehemently at her Majesty's police force at every opportunity. I wonder what their Local FLO would make of their opinions of them if they happened on this site, could identify the posters, and were considering their licence renewel :o

 

The best justice system in the world found him not guilty twice....end of story.

 

 

nah best not

 

KW

Edited July 20, 2012 by kdubya

[vole]

nah best not

 

KW

Would be a sad day when the likes of us could not condemn what they PERCEIVED to be heavy handed policing just because you held a sgc/fac. This country is all the better for being able to confront authority though year by year we are being subjected to extremely heavy pressure to be good little citizens and get on with it .I completely feel as if our rights as normal people are becoming stifled in order to ensure the rich and influential who run the show here can survive this financial holocaust that they created .

I have a feeling that if this bloke was a patient in my care ambling about in that manner and I knocked him on his *** and killed him I would get crucified quite rightly . As it was , he was not a hospital patient , he was where he had every right to be and might have got home to sleep off the booze had he not got thumped . Ambling in a defiant manner should not attract such a harsh response .

[spanj]

Some people seem so anti establishment its untrue...and their acrimony seems to be directed vehemently at her Majesty's police force at every opportunity. I wonder what their Local FLO would make of their opinions of them if they happened on this site, could identify the posters, and were considering their licence renewel :o

 

The best justice system in the world found him not guilty twice....end of story.

 

I fail to see what anybodies opinion of the Police SERVICE has to do with firearms licencing.

[spanj]

He was always going to be found not guilty of Manslaughter in my opinion.

 

What I would say though is that there should be a conviction for assualt in relation to the baton strike, that would see him out of the job minus pension.

 

There is no way on earth he could have forseen what the outcome would be, drunk bloke, underlying health issues ect,,, hundreds of people would have been pushed/hit that day without issue.

 

However, I don't think the force used was reasonable in the circumstances, the bottom line is it was an old bloke being obstructive at best, he wasn't posing a threat and he was leaving the area (slowly). It's really hard to see clearly but if that baton strike did go in then that should be the focus. The push could be justified I don't think the strike ever could.

 

Red mist which allegedly Harwood was known for anyway, looks like it got the better of him again. He doesn't deserve to wear the uniform.

 

I'm a copper too, and I've also had complaints. It's true that they can only be avoided if you never leave the office like some. Most have been for silly things and have never been upheld. I've been hurt and have had to hurt people but have never had a complaint from anyone for excess force so I'm glad I'm getting that right.

 

There's no smoke without fire though eh, if complaints are racking up against an officer then it's only right they should be looked at closely, especially if it's always in relation to similar things.

 

A pretty reasonable post IMO

[digger]

My dad was a policeman for thirty odd years, mainly as a typical old school village bobby. He dealt with most crimes from petty theft to seriously unpleasant ones. His view of the "modern" police force is that they are heavy handed ( as in the totally ott reaction at the pro hunting demo ) and more of a reactionary force than a pre emptive one. Hence the plethora of "theives operate in this area" signs all over London which indicate we know there is a problem but cant really do much about it. I think there are more PC Harwoods than any force cares to admit.

[keg]

Thanks Debaser you beat me to it. KW, read you own postings, i cannot find one praising the police, perhaps i have enough gone back far enough?. Please enlighten us as to your occupation please, that may shed more light on the matter.

 

Yes of course there are bent coppers. There are bent people in all sections of society and professions. In my own, sales, i have seen many "incentives" over the years but luckily have had the willpower not to be sucked in.

 

We should expect and get the highest standards from our police, and based on my own experiences, we get them most of the time. Same with the legal system ( as I think Mungler pointed out).

 

I knew a copper ( son of my parents friends) who could not keep it zipped, boffed anything that moved and lied about his whereabouts on duty to cover himself, at the other end, a cousin is a sargent and is as straight as the day is long.

[Nial]

His view of the "modern" police force is that they are heavy handed ( as in the totally ott reaction at the pro hunting demo ) and more of a reactionary force than a pre emptive one.

 

Is that down to the peelers on the street, the numbers of peelers on the street or their direction from 'those on high'?

 

Most of what Inspector Gadget posts....

 

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/

 

..agrees with what your dad says but due to lack of resources.

 

Nial