12 bore 24g vs 28g 7 1/2,s

[sitsinhedges]

It's also worth noting that smaller gauges use significantly less powder for a given shot weight.

[swingit]

 

I would also very much take issue with your claim that fibre wads throw tighter patterns, that's borderline trolling.

 

I remember reading something about this a long while ago and I can't for the life of me remember where,or by who ? ( It might of have been the BASC study ? ) Anyway,what ever it was I was reading the results did indeed confirm that fibre threw a tighter pattern than plastic.

 

Swingit.

[Wharf Rat]

I remember reading something about this a long while ago and I can't for the life of me remember where,or by who ? ( It might of have been the BASC study ? ) Anyway,what ever it was I was reading the results did indeed confirm that fibre threw a tighter pattern than plastic.

 

Swingit.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/01A20205-DA16-4088-AFB9A823495ECDB0

[EdSolomons]

Fibres have always shot more open through my gun, and being largely overbored means I dont shoot them anyway.

 

Fact is, no one here will be able to tell the difference between any of the shells on the market, other than recoil, which itself is very subjective. The is not a bad shell out there, and you only really start noticing the difference on 50yd plus stuff,which you rarely see anyhow, and few people are able to put the shot in the right place consistently enough to draw any conclusions from various shell options.

 

Stick them in, shoot and enjoy.

[Guest cookoff013]

 

Its reflected that wad quality improves pattern definition, and I think it very likely that loaders using more grains in 24g are using different powders and wads for specific performance and pricing reasons, - but 24 / 28g with all other aspects like for like should need less powder.

 

there are so many assumptions, i`m going to weigh in here. all cartridges are designed to perform for the set criteria. you all assume that there is one powder type and that more powder is used for the lighter shot charges. this is true. but no comercial loader would do that. it drops pressure, creates extreme fps variation and cost way more. there are faster powders that perform better at loadings of 24g or less. and it takes less grains of powder to get better performance. i`m using about 16grains of powder for 24g lkoads but the powder is unbeleavabley fast. probly faster than any powder traditionally used for shotgun, way faster than AS, reddot, even faster than titewad and bullseye, and is about as fast as alliant extralite. it costs more per kg but i can squeeze 1000shells per kg. that is reloading power.

 

there is a big difference between 24-25grains of AS to get 1400fps and 17 grains of faster powder. that is as comparable with a like for like pricing, but my load knocks the socks of most loads.

 

cartridge quality affects cartridge quality. use poor components at the wrong pressures then it can all go bad. i prefer faster powders for under 1oz, the event happens faster and cleaner, with better performance. no-one can deny that.

i have acchieven tighter patterns with fibre wads, but that was with my subsonics. shell speed has a great impact on patterns.

 

cook.

[Salopian]

I find this a very interesting topic, if only for the misinformation.

Where is this wealth of ballistic knowledge that has been unearthed by BASC Ballistics Committee? Is it a secret society?

Why do many (most?) expert clayshooters use fibre wadded cartridges in fixed choke guns when they feel the need to open up their pattern?

Is it a fallacy?

I can't see that BASC have bought much to the table apart from anti-lead diatribe.

I am sure that dissecting various loads will reveal far more information than any paper published by BASC Ballistic Research.

[pestcontrol1]

fibre gives a tighter pattern ??. I have tested this in a few guns i can say it not as tight as plas. I had to use fibre at some grounds i shot at and i would put tighter chokes in my sporter or use my trap gun.

[clayman]

BASC is a members' association and they invest in research for the benefit of members. While some information and reports may be published in the public sector, other things are only available to members, who have supported the research costs through their membership fees.

 

With any technical debate there are several views:-

 

Opinion, often collected by personal experience or gleaned from others views

Fact, that is supported by a study conducted under scientific conditions with controls and repeatability.

Myth, those things that have been proven beyond doubt to be wrong, but the incorrect information remains in circulation.

 

There are many things a technical advisor has that are opinion, and this is excellent to give provided it is qualified as such. "in my view, such and such".etc

And referenced fact, "it was shown by X that so and so happens and the report is published here".

Myth should be dispelled by education and reference " this common view is wrong because... as shown by...."

 

Like any technical advisor with a scientific background, the first question that is asked of an opposing view in debate is: - is this your opinion or is this a view you are relaying based on data or a study. Any good technical person has a thirst for correct knowledge, and they are happy to amend their current views and disseminate revised information when it can be shown their current information is incorrect or incomplete.

 

BASC reports; Shrivenham ( Dr Allsop) reports; Peter Blakely studies etc are all available in the public domain or to members of appropriate associations. From a personal point of view, I feel that in the main one should only give out information based on referenceable further information. I have had situations where published "fact" refernced to a University study turns out to be pure myth. When you trace back to the supposed study, it proved nothing of the kind.

 

Debate, as per this thread, is excellent, as it gives everyone a platform, and new information results.

 

Happy Christmas everyone, I enjoy all the input and expanding my knowledge as a result.

 

Jerry PY

[Gordon R]

Jerry - your fairly numerous recent offerings have been sensible and packed with detail - not saying the others weren't.

 

On any forum, some postings are rubbish and others merely trivial - I have posted some myself. Yours have been helpful, thought provoking and worth reading. Thanks for them.

 

Have a great Christmas and New Year.

 

Regards.

 

Gordon

[matone]

Jerry - your fairly numerous recent offerings have been sensible and packed with detail - not saying the others weren't.

 

On any forum, some postings are rubbish and others merely trivial - I have posted some myself. Yours have been helpful, thought provoking and worth reading. Thanks for them.

 

Have a great Christmas and New Year.

 

Regards.

 

Gordon

 

+1 It makes a change to read posts with factual researched content.

[sitsinhedges]

+1 It makes a change to read posts with factual researched content.

 

Where is this factually researched content?

Let's see the Lyalvale data sheets and recipes, and the proof that softer lead kills more cleanly, that less lead needs less of the same powder to propel it, and how a fibre wad can outperform lead that is propelled forward and out of the barrel some distance in the protective case that a plastic wad will provide.

 

Let's see it all.

[evo]

thanks for all the replies lads,,certainly opened my eyes,,will be using 24g for the clays in future, found them light on the shoulder and as seen made no difference to my scores so 24g for me

 

ed solomons,thanks for taking the time to reply, i have taken note of what you said and it certainly seems right but will certainly stick them in ,shoot and enjoy,many thanks again

 

all the best all for xmas and the new year and happy shooting be it 24g or 28g cheers evo

[Gordon R]

I had a definite negative view on lighter loads. Having read the posts, I will give them a go.

[magman]

I had a definite negative view on lighter loads. Having read the posts, I will give them a go.

 

You will be surprised

[BlaserF3]

I've shot only 24gms for about 5 or 6 years now, I like some of them but not all. If you want tight patterns then I'm sure you have to pay the extra money for quality cartridges.

[fortune]

Why bother with basc. There is far more researched data available from any of the powder and bullet companies than charley bloggs (basc I mean). These companies make the stuff and if your not sure then you can send a message and they’ll tell you how it is. What you can do and how to do it.

Edited December 24, 2012 by fortune

[Hamster]

Where is this factually researched content?

Let's see the Lyalvale data sheets and recipes, and the proof that softer lead kills more cleanly, that less lead needs less of the same powder to propel it, and how a fibre wad can outperform lead that is propelled forward and out of the barrel some distance in the protective case that a plastic wad will provide.

 

Let's see it all.

 

:thumbs:

 

While we're at it could we see a few better definition patterns too please !

[Floating Chamber]

Let us all calm down; they're just blooming cartridges! Just put the tubes in the right place all you back garden ballistic experts! (Tongue in cheek and Happy Christmas!)

[Salopian]

Clayman wrote:-

'BASC reports; Shrivenham ( Dr Allsop) reports; Peter Blakely studies etc are all available in the public domain or to members of appropriate associations.'

 

Jerry could you give me links to the papers you find useful?

Do you mean Peter Blakely? Or Peter Marshall?

[Guest cookoff013]

Let us all calm down; they're just blooming cartridges! Just put the tubes in the right place all you back garden ballistic experts! (Tongue in cheek and Happy Christmas!)

 

this is so very true, but when push comes to shove, i prefer to have a cartridge running well. FC, you know yourself that sometimes any powder can make anything leave the barrel. this is certainly true with some or most of the recipes on gualandi website.

most of those loads should be scrapped. but they bare safe from the point of view that they dont go over pressure.

 

what makes the perfect cartridge? 1400fps for most loads and above 10000psi or about 650-700bar. at those criteria means exellent performance.

 

with the development and distribution of new components, putting a blanket statement is poor at best. there are so many new components powders, applications, buffers and cases. not all are going to be great, but some are going to be exellent.

[shaun4860]

I use 21g/24g cartridges because of the recoil,

 

I find that even some of the 24g cartridges are quite punchy so I shopped around and found ones I like and now stick to them (comp x in either 21/24g)

 

I shoot for fun/enjoyment so am not really bothered that XYZ says you need this cartridge because it gives you better results

 

Shoot what your happy with and if its the same cartridge all the time then that rules out blaming it if you miss, if you miss its YOU thats missed not the cartridge

 

BAH HUMBUG

 

What does puzzle me however are people that use cheaper cartridge for practice then switch to a "top brand expensive one" for competitions?

 

[BerettaSV10]

I use 21g/24g cartridges because of the recoil,

 

I find that even some of the 24g cartridges are quite punchy so I shopped around and found ones I like and now stick to them (comp x in either 21/24g)

 

I shoot for fun/enjoyment so am not really bothered that XYZ says you need this cartridge because it gives you better results

 

Shoot what your happy with and if its the same cartridge all the time then that rules out blaming it if you miss, if you miss its YOU thats missed not the cartridge

 

BAH HUMBUG

 

What does puzzle me however are people that use cheaper cartridge for practice then switch to a "top brand expensive one" for competitions?

 

 

Now probs using the comp x 21G been using them for ages, only recently change to 70 mm carts so they can cycle in the s/a, if they made the comp x's in 70 mm cases would still be using them. I have kick off's on my main guns and the escort butt pad soaks a lot of recoil up as well.

 

+1 to BAH HUMBUG

[shaun4860]

Now probs using the comp x 21G been using them for ages, only recently change to 70 mm carts so they can cycle in the s/a, if they made the comp x's in 70 mm cases would still be using them. I have kick off's on my main guns and the escort butt pad soaks a lot of recoil up as well.

 

+1 to BAH HUMBUG

 

I have Kickeeze on mine,

 

I've never seen an auto yet that can cycle 21/24g Comp X's not many manage the 28g either

 

[Floating Chamber]

 

 

I have Kickeeze on mine,

 

I've never seen an auto yet that can cycle 21/24g Comp X's not many manage the 28g either

 

 

I have three of them that do! They are all Winchesters (circa 1950s) with Floating Chambers. They will also cycle 24 gram subsonic. Two of the three have 'glass' barrels.

[BerettaSV10]

I have Kickeeze on mine,

 

I've never seen an auto yet that can cycle 21/24g Comp X's not many manage the 28g either

 

 

My old Benelli Crio would happily cycle comp x 21g 99.9% of the time, it only jammed on the odd ocasion and that was down to some thing getting under the slide.