Scully Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Sco77w said: They are available in the States and I have someone that can send me one but the trench guns have 20" barrels and mine has been cut down (not by me may I add) to the uk minimum legal length of 24". Just wondered if it would look ok or not. It’s only 4” longer then; much better than it would look on a 28” or longer barrel. I once saw one in the window of York Guns, complete with bayonet, back in the days it was a proper gun shop in the city centre. I bought many a nice handgun from there; spent a fortune in fact in that shop over the years. Sadly gone now, as has most of its wonderful stock. As much as I like the 1897, I think the Model 12 edges it for me. Also available in ‘Trench’ model mode! It’s a shame we aren’t to be trusted with such things in this country! It follows absolutely no logic at all. Edited March 8, 2020 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 44 minutes ago, Sco77w said: They are available in the States and I have someone that can send me one but the trench guns have 20" barrels and mine has been cut down (not by me may I add) to the uk minimum legal length of 24". Just wondered if it would look ok or not. Try using photoshop to mock up what yours would look like, at some point there would obviously be a 4” gap over that on a 20” , it just depends where you place the gap. A standard 1897 trench gun has the rear of the heat shield level with the rear of the slide handle when in battery, yours would be level , roughly with the middle of the slide handle. Also the rear of the bayonet lug is level with the end of the magazine tube, yours , if mounted at the end of the barrel would have a gap. You could slide the lug/heat shield assembly to the rear and have the extra at the muzzle which may look a little ungainly though. I am almost certain that many different barrel lengths were used by the US military as shotguns were purchased on the civilian market to make up numbers, known as “pig stickers “ perhaps unkindly, maybe these bayonet equipped 97’s were of longer length but were not “trench guns” per se but used in guarding situations etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 With apologies for poor photography Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sco77w Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 Where the heat shield would finish is my concern, I think it stopping half way down the pump corn cob would annoy me. I was hoping someone would have done it already so I could see one done. Its not like I'm trying to fake a trench gun I just fancy sticking a bayonet on this shotgun. It's a takedown model wher as the real trench guns weren't so it would never be a true representation of one even if we were allowed 20" barrels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sco77w Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 Here's the part. They do them for ithacas too but my DSPS is original and I wouldn't want to go cutting a groove in that barrel to fit the lug. 15 minutes ago, impala59 said: With apologies for poor photography 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmboy91 Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 46 minutes ago, theshootist said: The 1901 is a great gun but if you want to shoot a big lever gun then the Chiapa copy of the 1887 is the way to go. I find them very ungainly though, the 1897 is a much better shooter. I have looked at those too as they came up while I was searching, to be honest the shootability isn't a big deal, much like the '97 it's about owning a preserving a peice of history, with the added bonus you can go out and shoot it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) I think that all you can do if you want to go down this path is to suck it and see, my guess is that if you don’t like it then you will always be able to move the lug/shield on and probably not lose too much on it just reading up on the subject and it appears that while WW1 97’s had the muzzle just about flush with the lug, the WW2 97’s had the barrel protruding from the lug about an inch, so now we’re only talking a 3” deviation 😀 Edited March 8, 2020 by impala59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sco77w Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 👍 they've recently sold out. Think I'll get an order in for when they're back in stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sco77w Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, impala59 said: That needs a little trim I think. Are these pics from books you have? Just bought a copy of Street Sweepers to fuel my historic combat shotgun obsession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 Those pics from Canfields Combat Shotguns, good reference work, I have half a a dozen general reference books on the subject and other specifics for various makes picked up over the years. Ridiculous prices now though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) I've had both. The 1897 and the 1912 and both with 20" barrels in the days before 1988 when that meant only s1 and not as nowadays s5. Both would slamfire if yiou kept the trigger held back. The 1897 of course had the advantage that you could carry the thing with a loaded chamber and the hammer down. The 1912 had the advantage of no exposed hammer and a safety catch. Both were good guns yet the 1897 was probably the more robust. Savage also made a "Trench Gun" but that seems almost to have been forgotten. Edited March 9, 2020 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Farmboy91 said: I have looked at those too as they came up while I was searching, to be honest the shootability isn't a big deal, much like the '97 it's about owning a preserving a peice of history, with the added bonus you can go out and shoot it. In that case there is a 1901 in the next Holts auction. I don't shoot mine but I'm sure that if you were to reload you could shoot it safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmboy91 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, theshootist said: In that case there is a 1901 in the next Holts auction. I don't shoot mine but I'm sure that if you were to reload you could shoot it safely. Thanks for that just had a look, I have got a few 10 bore cartridges but no black powder. I did also have a look for 10-12 reducers and came across a post from impala59 re the same, did you ever get anywhere with this pal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 I got “little skeeters “ for my 10g double, they actually pattern quite well and recoil like a spud gun in the 11lb Flues. I’ve not tried them in the Mag 10 as even 28g 12’s can be a bit awkward to remove from the adapter’s, the magnum load needed to cycle the action in that gun would probably mean stuck cases in the adapter big time! 9 hours ago, enfieldspares said: Savage also made a "Trench Gun" but that seems almost to have been forgotten. Indeed they did, the 520 (square shoulder receiver) and 620 (rounded receiver) were made in some numbers, very collectible now. Later 77’s saw service also. There was a 620 20g recently on guntrader for next to no money, I was unfortunately too late on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevethejeep Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 Morning Gents, Interested in comments on '97 trench gun. A RFD chum had one decades ago and I had the opportunity to try it as well as 'feel the steel'. My verdict was as excellent weapon for what it was intended for ie close quarters combat and as a deterrentant on guard/sentry duty. Aside from that the applications are/were limited due to the spread of shot at say 20 yards, I looked into converting one of my '97s a while ago but decided against it as I was going to ruin an original gun, and I didn't think the 'Boys in blue' were likely to give me a Section 5 variation on my FAC. However I've still got a 1917 bayonet and scabbard in good condition if anyone's interested? Regards Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) In one sense the US Army Trench Guns were...well not quite....an ad hoc solution to them having no first generation SMGs as did the Germans with the MP18. I would imagine to have heard this coming either down the length of the trench or through an attack of gas yet not to know exactly what it was would have been quite off-putting. https://youtu.be/PJWp2WywIgE?t=4 This is an excellent cartoon video of the MP18 as the rate of fire is correct. I hadvthrough my hands once a Lanchester which was pretty much a "knock off" of these WWI German guns. Edited March 9, 2020 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 9 hours ago, stevethejeep said: Morning Gents, Interested in comments on '97 trench gun. A RFD chum had one decades ago and I had the opportunity to try it as well as 'feel the steel'. My verdict was as excellent weapon for what it was intended for ie close quarters combat and as a deterrentant on guard/sentry duty. Aside from that the applications are/were limited due to the spread of shot at say 20 yards, I looked into converting one of my '97s a while ago but decided against it as I was going to ruin an original gun, and I didn't think the 'Boys in blue' were likely to give me a Section 5 variation on my FAC. However I've still got a 1917 bayonet and scabbard in good condition if anyone's interested? Regards Steve Oh man.. black diamond 1897.. SWOON! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuarta Posted March 9, 2020 Report Share Posted March 9, 2020 I have a 1897 underleaver and love shooting black powder carts, you don’t always know if you have hit the clay, rabbit etc because of all the smoke after firing on a windless day but it always makes me smile hen I use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 12 hours ago, Stuarta said: I have a 1897 underleaver and love shooting black powder carts, you don’t always know if you have hit the clay, rabbit etc because of all the smoke after firing on a windless day but it always makes me smile hen I use it. Wow that looks like its in superb condition for an 1887. Beautiful. Do you have it on FAC? How many do these hold, including one on the lifter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuarta Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 It is on my FAC as it holds three in the tube, one on the lifter and one up the barrel. There are four notches cut into the butt so I assume it has some real history if only it could talk🤔 I have no idea what it is worth, in the UK it has limited market value as you need a FAC but everyone who has shot it has wanted another go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bang bang birdy Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 On 09/03/2020 at 10:58, impala59 said: I got “little skeeters “ for my 10g double, they actually pattern quite well and recoil like a spud gun in the 11lb Flues. I’ve not tried them in the Mag 10 as even 28g 12’s can be a bit awkward to remove from the adapter’s, the magnum load needed to cycle the action in that gun would probably mean stuck cases in the adapter big time! Indeed they did, the 520 (square shoulder receiver) and 620 (rounded receiver) were made in some numbers, very collectible now. Later 77’s saw service also. There was a 620 20g recently on guntrader for next to no money, I was unfortunately too late on that one. I bought the 620 20g for my lad that was in gun trader, lovely little thing, well chuffed with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala59 Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 2 hours ago, bang bang birdy said: I bought the 620 20g for my lad that was in gun trader, lovely little thing, well chuffed with it Good on you getting it for your lad! If I’m not mistaken it could be quite an early one, be worth checking out as I don’t think you will see too many of them about. A collectible at a bargain basement price! You don’t see that too often also! Good build quality on the 620’s that I have seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bang bang birdy Posted March 13, 2020 Report Share Posted March 13, 2020 The serial number is 069, the build quality on it is unbelievable for such an old gun, if it keeps going as it is it will outlast my boy who’s 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted March 14, 2020 Report Share Posted March 14, 2020 On 12/03/2020 at 20:25, bang bang birdy said: I bought the 620 20g for my lad that was in gun trader, lovely little thing, well chuffed with it Brilliant. I would have been absolutely made up with that when I started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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