Guest cookoff013 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Hi Motty Not wishing to go off thread and turn this into the usual 7.5 vs 6 shotsize debate I am surprised that pigeons at 35 yds with this load are no problem. Using size 7.5 in lead splits the pigeon shooting community into two very distinct camps as we already know but then reducing the pellet weight still further by going to steel is another big step again. From what I have read (not seen first hand in the field mind you) is that the general rule with steel is you go up two shot sizes larger than lead to maintain knock down power. Quite willing to be proved wrong though. the 7 vs 6 is only general between 1300fps lead loads where they are not too different ballisticly, the #6 just edges the 7. as a general rule, you cant increase the speed without sacrifising pattern and speed.so pusing at 1300fps is as good as. where as steel is a totally different beast, what you should be asking... would 24g#7 steel at 1600fps deck a pigeon? yep. would 32g #4 steel at 1300fps deck a pigeon? yep. as for the going up 2 shotsizes, thats the minimum at 1400fps, and as the claims on the cartridge boxes are alittle padded, maybe going up 3 is better.esp speeds under 1300fps. horses and corses and all. Edited July 31, 2013 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 A slight digression on the main thread if I may, but your thoughts on steel through a 1960's 3 inch Midland Gun Co. magnum, with 1/4 & 1/2 fixed chokes? I have used Express Supreme steel (32gm 4's) through it over the last few years (from 2003) since I have got back into fowling, although I would guess no more than a couple of hundred cartridges in that time. So far the gun has handled the load well with no barrel scoring. When I bought the gun in the early 90's it was proofed for 1 1/2oz, and I had it re-proofed through the London Proof House for use with the Eley 3" Magnum load which was I believe 1 5/8oz or 1 7/8oz. It passed with flying colours, and has a lot of meat on the barrels. I also had the cokes opened out from 3/4 and full by Ladbrooke & Langton gunsmiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 Hi Motty Not wishing to go off thread and turn this into the usual 7.5 vs 6 shotsize debate I am surprised that pigeons at 35 yds with this load are no problem. Using size 7.5 in lead splits the pigeon shooting community into two very distinct camps as we already know but then reducing the pellet weight still further by going to steel is another big step again. From what I have read (not seen first hand in the field mind you) is that the general rule with steel is you go up two shot sizes larger than lead to maintain knock down power. Quite willing to be proved wrong though. It is quite possible - and i've done it - to kill 25 - 30 yard pigeon with 9 lead shot. The amount of pellets simply does the job. That steel load would have a high pellet count. Another thing i quoted is that it is 2.5mm shot - somewhere close to a uk size 6.5. In my opinion, those shells would be able to do a job at decoying but not long range stuff. It's interesting when you start talking about shotsizes and what people should/shouldn't use. I have recently read an old wildfowling book with tales from some 'fowling legends. I read that some of those gents killed geese with 5's and even 7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 It is quite possible - and i've done it - to kill 25 - 30 yard pigeon with 9 lead shot. The amount of pellets simply does the job. That steel load would have a high pellet count. Another thing i quoted is that it is 2.5mm shot - somewhere close to a uk size 6.5. I remember reading an artcle in the 80's or 90's about decoying with size 8 lead shot and the general conclusion was they worked at sensible ranges pretty consistently. My surprise was that 2.5mm steel kept enough oomph at 35 yds, assuming it started out within CIP guidlines for standard steel proof to be consistently effective. Sounds like I might be doing a bit of experimenting If I can get hold of those shells. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 I believe Gamebore are looking at different combinations, supply and demand - if shooters need it, and they make it - they will sell it! Interested to hear from anyone who has used the fibre wad steels - how do they pattern? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 It's no good having the choice of perhaps just one cartridge is it. It's bad enough with steel in a plastic case if you shoot 20gauge as I do, maybe 2 real choices with no choice of shot size but the single one offered. One manufacturer looking at one specialist load means very little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 It's no good having the choice of perhaps just one cartridge is it. It's bad enough with steel in a plastic case if you shoot 20gauge as I do, maybe 2 real choices with no choice of shot size but the single one offered. One manufacturer looking at one specialist load means very little. well said. the biggest irony is the manufacturers should have bottomed out the steel market, as its so much more cheaper than lead. money usually talks. some skeet shooters turn to steel, as its cheaper and there is very little difference, just due to the distances. 24g steel #9s is a sweet skeet cartridge. i used to buy them for £80 per k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I could not agree more, I would hope more manufacturers would step up to the mark, I will make enquiries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarepeg Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Just picked up some of these, 65mm paper cases marked Vintage Cartridges with a shot load of 24 grams in 4s and 5s. The fibre cup is sat on a 1/8 card wad only, no fibre. It is propelled by 33grains of a small dark metallic looking powder that looks like the black gold propellant??. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Hazell Posted September 11, 2019 Report Share Posted September 11, 2019 Hi all, I have asked gun shops, and the three big cartridge manufacturers, When are they going to make a 20 bore Fibre cartridge for shooting Duck, IE: Non-toxic in Fibre for a 20 bore, The only thing I can find is Bismuth, and that is not upto killing Ducks cleanly, at anything over 25yds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted September 11, 2019 Report Share Posted September 11, 2019 That’s very odd. I have shot quite a lot of ducks at over 25 yds with bismuth shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted September 11, 2019 Report Share Posted September 11, 2019 Tony if you choose to use a 20 bore and want good steel carts with fiber cup, start loading your own. It will pay off in no time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Hazell Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 14 hours ago, London Best said: That’s very odd. I have shot quite a lot of ducks at over 25 yds with bismuth shot. Ok so you can kill a Duck at 25yds +, But everyone I have spoken to all over the country, don't believe that Bismuth kill cleanly, That includes Gun shops up and down the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted September 12, 2019 Report Share Posted September 12, 2019 I found it to be a confidence thing. Once I got confidence in bismuth I found it ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted September 13, 2019 Report Share Posted September 13, 2019 That's really odd. Apart fom the expensive price tag, bismuth is supposed to be the closest -non alloy- material to lead. According to analisys of comparison test load produced by Cook, bismuth is ~0.9 the density of lead so, your standard lead 1oz load will tun up to be ~ 7/8 worth of bismuth. The thing though is that bismuth returns higher speed for less pressure, so, a 1oz bismuth should be more than sufficient to take most wildfowl. As I said, cost might be a big factor, but if you want to shoot non toxic succesfully you either buy big brand names of proved efficiency (for 12 bore there are few trusted brands i hear) or load your own and this will open a whole new world: for instance you can use ITX-10 with traditional wadding in old guns without any danger... I only shoot 20 bore and found the market has very little to offer and this doesn't help reduce pricing. Fortunately I never really bought cartridges as I always reloaded my own and after 30 years reloading lead, I found a new lease of life in the non-toxic reloading world. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 On 12/09/2019 at 10:42, Tony Hazell said: Ok so you can kill a Duck at 25yds +, But everyone I have spoken to all over the country, don't believe that Bismuth kill cleanly, That includes Gun shops up and down the country. I don't believe it. Any cartridge should kill at those ranges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 Tony, Bismuth is one of the most effective non toxic shot materials, it`s just that it`s horrendously expensive. My wildfowling club did some extended field trials on Eley Bismuth shot some years ago and, when you cut throught the "Dave on Facebook said it didn`t work" type of comments, it was especially effective. Working in a gun shop is no garauntee of knowing anything about shooting and everybody I`ve spoken to around the country - all wildfowlers who`d actually used the stuff - liked it very much. Bismuth has pretty much been replaced by steel for all but the most delicate of guns or ignorant of shooters. To go back to the OP`s original question about steel shot and fibre wads that he need to use on his shoot. You might want to consider going back to the shoot captain and clarify with him if he means that ONLY fibre wads are permitted or whether completely bio degradeable plastic wads such as those used in the Eley Bio wad range are acceptable. The Eley bio wad has brought a new dimension to the terminology of wads that you might want to clarify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 Bismuth is currently £12/kg, Eley sells it for £30/kg as shot inside cartridge where it should be about £15/kg. with tbe £3 being cost of turning to shot and profit. The extra £15/box is pure profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Stonepark said: Bismuth is currently £12/kg, Eley sells it for £30/kg as shot inside cartridge where it should be about £15/kg. with tbe £3 being cost of turning to shot and profit. The extra £15/box is pure profit. Gamebore now sell bismuth cartridges. Are they same price as Eley I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, dodeer said: Gamebore now sell bismuth cartridges. Are they same price as Eley I wonder? Funny that, almost to the nearest 50p the same isn't it........ I wonder how many reports to the Competition Market Authority it would take to get them to investigate this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 One big rip off, they all get their heads together and set pricing. Otherwise they would be rock bottom prices as one tried to outsell the others. The wads powder and primers cost the big boys a few pence for a cart assembled. The lead shot is the most expensive part. Even accounting for making the shot. They are making a good chunk on them. Used to be £90.00 a thousand for clay carts, they were still making a profit. Even with rises in components. The price hike to consumers is way over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 Just got a slab of the new eley pro eco steels, 28g 7s for snipe shooting in Northern Ireland. More expensive than I was reckoning, but want to stay the right side of the law, the test will be how they perform... hard to see enough people will buy them to get downward pressure on prices by starting at such a high price point though. £113 for 250... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Teal said: Just got a slab of the new eley pro eco steels, 28g 7s for snipe shooting in Northern Ireland. More expensive than I was reckoning, but want to stay the right side of the law, the test will be how they perform... hard to see enough people will buy them to get downward pressure on prices by starting at such a high price point though. £113 for 250... Make every shot count at that price! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 That's ridiculous, the steel shot is cheap as can be the powder same as their other steel loads, again very cheap case is no different. This new eco wad must be gold plated. Hope they perform for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted September 28, 2019 Report Share Posted September 28, 2019 Only found out the price after they imported them! Looking into it seems about the same as the price point in England. Shame really if they wanted to get good uptake would have been better to be a similar price point for the first couple of years. No idea why the extra cost, the r&d costs should be written over many forward years rather than trying to recoup straight away if they want the cartridges to gain traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.