gun cabinet refused

[essexfluke]

Last week I sold my old cabinet to a friend of mine as his brother has applied for a shot gun licence. I have had this cabinet for just over 10 years and only changed it after getting my firearms licence. Now this cabinet has been checked on 3 renewals and when I first got my firearms licence and had been approved for both. Yet he has just been told that it is not acceptable as the hinge is not fully enclosed, it is stainless steel full length hinge with the pin welded in. He pointed out that he had bought the cabinet from me and that it had already been approved for my shotgun and firearms licences only to be told that it would be ok for a shotgun renewal but not for someone applying for the first time? Do you think he should ask for a second opinion as I think this is crazy logic.

[JABB]

Problem is you can argue until you are blue, but it is them you argue with who have the power to grant or refuse. Don't upset them, you need them on your side. Cabinets are reasonably cheap. Move it on and buy another. Get the licence with no fuss.

 

Or, lend him your new one for the inspection, then swap them back after the grant. Chances are, when it comes to renewal, they will take a quick glance and carry on....

[Scully]

Problem is you can argue until you are blue, but it is them you argue with who have the power to grant or refuse. Don't upset them, you need them on your side. Cabinets are reasonably cheap. Move it on and buy another. Get the licence with no fuss.

 

Wow! I don't know which is more incredible; comments such as 'don't upset them,you need them on your side' or the FEO talking out of his backside with his ridiculous comments that

the cabinet is ok for a shotgun renewal but not for a first time applicant!

Get in touch with your shooting organisation and make a fuss.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Scully

[HDAV]

Just because it was passed for renewal doesn't mean it meets the current guidance (when exactly was it last inspected?) download the current spec and see what is recommended, remember the location of the cabinet, type of property, additional security and area are all considered, up stairs in a corner of a well secured house with a monitored alarm in a low crime area is different to in a bungalow with no alarm in a high crime area.

Edited August 21, 2013 by HDAV

[Kes]

Its only my opinion but an exposed hinge is asking for trouble. Irrespective of previous apporovals or not, would you think its safe if the hinge(s) could be cut off with a grinder?

I would check what constitutes Ho approval in a gun safe and if yours meets the requirements weigh -up whether you want to pursue it. You could pursue it and probably win but its a cabinet and so why would the police want to stupid over that ? Perhaps only because it is close to the approval line.

My advice would be replace it and use the original for your other valuables.

[aris]

If it has hinge bolts, exposed hinges should not make it easier to open.

 

Everything you need to know should be in here.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117636/firearms-security-handbook.pdf

 

2.1 The security of firearms, section 1 ammunition and shotguns within a dwelling can in most cases be achieved using a cabinet designed for this purpose. New cabinets should conform to the requirements of BS7558 (see Annex C for examples on points of construction). The cabinet should be fixed to the structure and located to frustrate attack or identification by persons visiting the premises. BS7558 was introduced in 1992 but many older cabinets will be built to perfectly satisfactory standards and, if satisfactory, need not be replace

Edited August 21, 2013 by aris

[rascal72]

I have just had the same after moving both my cabinets to a different room my older cabinet will only be approved as an amunition safe now due to having an external hinge this was only inspected less than 6 months prior with a sgc renewal was given 3 months to get rid of a couple of guns or install another cabinet

[andrewluke]

Its only my opinion but an exposed hinge is asking for trouble. Irrespective of previous apporovals or not, would you think its safe if the hinge(s) could be cut off with a grinder?

I would check what constitutes Ho approval in a gun safe and if yours meets the requirements weigh -up whether you want to pursue it. You could pursue it and probably win but its a cabinet and so why would the police want to stupid over that ? Perhaps only because it is close to the approval line.

My advice would be replace it and use the original for your other valuables.

 

if someone is going to use a grinder then they would get into any cabinet???

 

 

andrew

[Malik]

The FEO has to put their **** on the line and if they're in any doubt or are not happy, then thats his/hers decision. At the end of the day. They have to be able to go to their chief of his/her force with confidence with what they are approving.

 

If anything where to happen and security was breached. Questions would be asked as to who approved the cabinet in the first place.

 

 

New cabinets aren't much. Better to be safe than sorry. Probably a motto the FEO is thinking too.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Malik

[Kes]

if someone is going to use a grinder then they would get into any cabinet???

 

 

andrew

It's a matter of how long it takes, not the tool you use. If it takes a very short amount of time (risk of detection) someone will try it. Concealed hinges/ no access to hinge pins visually deters as the time element is obviously increased.

 

Exposed hinges can be a problem for patio doors - remember that series of break-ins - now those hinges are complemented by multiple lugs to prevent lift -out.

[JonathanL]

Its only my opinion but an exposed hinge is asking for trouble. Irrespective of previous apporovals or not, would you think its safe if the hinge(s) could be cut off with a grinder?

I would check what constitutes Ho approval in a gun safe and if yours meets the requirements weigh -up whether you want to pursue it. You could pursue it and probably win but its a cabinet and so why would the police want to stupid over that ? Perhaps only because it is close to the approval line.

My advice would be replace it and use the original for your other valuables.

 

If someone has a grinder with them then they can get into any type of sheet-steel gun cabinet currently available.

 

The level of security you need to provide is not intended to stop someone with a grinder. It's intended to prevent theft by an opportunist who happens accross your guns in the process of burgling your house. House burglars rarely carry grinders with them. If someone has decided that they want your guns are are prepared to do what it takes to get them then virtually no security will stop them.

 

J.

[Steel100]

If they want your guns they'll come when you are in and 'ask' for them!!

 

Andy

[HDAV]

If they want your guns they'll come when you are in and 'ask' for them!!

 

Andy

Very true!

 

You may be able to weld a cover over hinge but for the faff a BS approved cabinet is a better option

[Cosd]

Problem is you can argue until you are blue, but it is them you argue with who have the power to grant or refuse. Don't upset them, you need them on your side. Cabinets are reasonably cheap. Move it on and buy another. Get the licence with no fuss.

 

Or, lend him your new one for the inspection, then swap them back after the grant. Chances are, when it comes to renewal, they will take a quick glance and carry on....

 

 

I'm sorry but this is such a bad piece of advice!! Do not go down this road!!

 

Either ask the FEO if would would reconsider his verdict based on the cabinet has been previously approved, or get another cabinet.....

 

 

[al4x]

lets face it the FEO isn't going to accept it, whether that is simply the hinges or its the hinges plus your location or house security there are a few things that make them more picky. I had a decent safe in a house that was single glazed with panes missing a plenty when I bought it but a very low crime area and they never batted an eyelid. However you wouldn't get away with it in most areas. It is a reason for refusal so really tell them to bite the bullet spend 100 notes and get a new one

[mereside]

hi bud were is the steel pin? if its internal on the fold just cover with a 2mm plate and tack it in the door should be folded back on itself in a u shape and the cabinet should also have a return so you cant jemmy the door. i use a solid bar welded in and a cover plate on the door. some cabinet doors now use arms for hinges now so they are away from the door so you cannot cut them, for the sake of a few quid its not a disaster, atb wayne

have you a pic so i can see what its about

Edited August 22, 2013 by mereside

[butchdickason]

I have just had the same situation, renewal time and the same FEO who had not said anything about my cabinet last time he checked, this time said that the cabinet was not up to latest spec as approved by the police,

he could not enforce a change, but should there be a problem at any time and an insurance claim made for my guns, it was more than likely that the Insurance company would use my cabinet not being latest spec as an out to meeting any claim. Thought about it for a very short time, bought a new cabinet and informed the FEO of the change and he recorded the details on my record.

 

Butch

[timps]

In terms of the law it is worded.

 

"(iv)(a)the shot guns to which the certificate relates must at all times (except in the circumstances set out in paragraph ( b ) below) be stored securely so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the guns by an unauthorised person;"

 

 

What is considered securely is open to interpretation and is not yet defined in law.

 

So bearing that in mind there is no requirement to use a cabinet of any sort and also no guarantees a cabinet to the British standard is going to be enough to be classed as securely .

 

Most FEOs will go off Home Office Guidance hence why you have the issue, but Home Office Guidance is just that, Guidance not the law.

 

People in the past have argued and got gun clamps accepted, you could probably argue this case and get it accepted, the question is whether it is worth the hassle, but the law does not state what is securely so it is an argument you can win.

 

I know someone with a gun room who had this very argument and won.

Edited August 22, 2013 by timps

[HDAV]

I have just had the same situation, renewal time and the same FEO who had not said anything about my cabinet last time he checked, this time said that the cabinet was not up to latest spec as approved by the police,

he could not enforce a change, but should there be a problem at any time and an insurance claim made for my guns, it was more than likely that the Insurance company would use my cabinet not being latest spec as an out to meeting any claim. Thought about it for a very short time, bought a new cabinet and informed the FEO of the change and he recorded the details on my record.

 

Butch

Unless your insurance stated the terms of security (never seen gun cabinet mentioned on my policy...) How could they refuse to pay out?

 

I think the FEO was bending the truth to suit his own ends.....afterall the cabinet had been approved by him!!!

Edited August 22, 2013 by HDAV

[vulpicide]

The cabinet is ok I would tell him to refuse the application and I will appeal but I'm a SACS member we do'nt accept the law as they want it to be we insist they stick to the law as parliament passed it.

[tedster]

Just get a new, bigger, gun cabinet and then treat yourself to more guns!

 

Problem solved.....

[mossy835]

as it was passed befor, how can it not pass now,i though once passed all ways passed.

[remmyman]

In terms of the law it is worded.

 

"(iv)(a)the shot guns to which the certificate relates must at all times (except in the circumstances set out in paragraph ( b ) below) be stored securely so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the guns by an unauthorised person;"

 

 

What is considered securely is open to interpretation and is not yet defined in law.

 

So bearing that in mind there is no requirement to use a cabinet of any sort and also no guarantees a cabinet to the British standard is going to be enough to be classed as securely .

 

Most FEOs will go off Home Office Guidance hence why you have the issue, but Home Office Guidance is just that, Guidance not the law.

 

People in the past have argued and got gun clamps accepted, you could probably argue this case and get it accepted, the question is whether it is worth the hassle, but the law does not state what is securely so it is an argument you can win.

 

I know someone with a gun room who had this very argument and won.

Well said. Feo's seem to be regarded as Godlike by some on here, the reality is that a high percentage of them don't even shoot and indeed never have. The LAW is THE only thing to be non- negotiable, the interpretation of the HO guidance is just that, no more no less. Remember as far as shotgun certs go you have a lawful RIGHT to possess provided the relevant prohibitions don't apply.

[Bowen20]

I hate it when people are tight just go and buy a new cabinet and stop crying if someone wanted to sell/give me a cabinet with exposed hinges I would think hmmm looks a bit of a **** design the new ones haven't got this so I'd go buy another one or newer one. The FEO's just give you a gist of what's going to happen they don't have the last word it's the firearms licensing manager you need to speak to and explain your situation if your going to keep the cabinet

[welshwarrior]

I'm not saying your right but I would speak to the BASC team and get their advice if you are in the right they will speak to the firearm department and the FEO may change his mind.

 

Worked for me when they asked me to up grade my alarm system as they thought The local guy was better than a national company. I would have spent £900 to have the same sensors and panel fitted with a different sticker on the front!!!!!