semi auto for driven game shooting

[Tim Kelly]

Why should you have to spend that extra £100 when you have a perfectly capable gun that does the job. If you read my earlier posts you would see that I have keepered on places with nobility shooting and they even had guests using semi-auto's. They have more money than you could imagine but prefer semi-auto's as a 600-700 bird day with extremely high birds requiring heavy loads is hard going with a SxS. I am able to use a SxS but find a semi-auto (it doesn't make me a fan of them though) a lot easier going even with light loads which when you are in severe pain, every little helps. I have also said I'm not a huge fan of them used on driven days but at the end of the day it is down to the individual, not someone who thinks they know what is appropriate and what isn't.

 

 

Because, like turning up to a black tie event in jeans and flip flops, you are spoiling the day for everyone else who has scrimped and saved to have a day out there with you. A bit like having a greedy gun on the team. Yes, you could shoot at everything that comes close to you, but if you've paid for twenty birds per gun and someone shoots fifteen on the first drive themselves, you know it's going to be a long day.

[Bluebarrels]

Nice to see a sxs on a driven day IMO and it's more in keeping with tradition however nothing wrong with a semi auto in safe/good hands,as already said plenty of un-safe shots who prefer a sxs o/u BB

Edited September 24, 2013 by Bluebarrels

[pontbeck]

This attitude of tradition is reminiscent to me of the Amish in America and the Hassidic Jews in dressing from an earlier era and driving a horse and carriage instead of a car. Time moves on and so should we. Tweeds still look great but so do some of the more modern materials. I'm a traditionalist and it pains me that I think along similar lines. My first post on this thread stated it was no more than snobbery that excludes semis from driven game and I've come to the conclusion I 'm a snob.

[Highbird70]

This attitude of tradition is reminiscent to me of the Amish in America and the Hassidic Jews in dressing from an earlier era and driving a horse and carriage instead of a car. Time moves on and so should we. Tweeds still look great but so do some of the more modern materials. I'm a traditionalist and it pains me that I think along similar lines. My first post on this thread stated it was no more than snobbery that excludes semis from driven game and I've come to the conclusion I 'm a snob.

 

I don't think that you are a snob at all Pontbeck, what you are its a passionate traditionalist hunter, something that I really fund of, if you noticed, this year I have bought my first ever tweed and not for snobbery, despite the general assumption, but for a bit of old time keeping, a bit like those people that they like to dress up for historic roles in a social gathering.

About the shotgun used on a day shooting, personally I like the old style shotgun, but I have been in situation, that there was a semi-automatic one on a walked up shoot, not all were very pleased, but as long you know your safety ABC when handling this type of gun, I find it safe enough.

A point that I would like to raise about the semi-automatic shotgun....you can walk with 1 - 2 cartridges in the magazine, but take out the one in the chamber and mechanically jam it in the action, that makes the shotgun very safe, impossible to accidentally discharge it.

 

ATB

Mark

[strangford wildfowler]

All guns are safe when unloaded and broken/bolt locked back

[bostonmick]

surely the first thing to do is ask the keeper if semi auto's are acceptable if he says yes then away you go and just take a little extra care to show the others that the gun is safe and empty when its needed.

[Penelope]

If a sportsman true you’d be
Listen carefully to me. . .

Never, never let your gun
Pointed be at anyone.
That it may unloaded be
Matters not the least to me.

When a hedge or fence you cross
Though of time it cause a loss
From your gun the cartridge take
For the greater safety’s sake.

If twixt you and neighbouring gun
Bird shall fly or beast may run
Let this maxim ere be thine
“Follow not across the line.”

Stops and beaters oft unseen
Lurk behind some leafy screen.
Calm and steady always be
“Never shoot where you can’t see.”

You may kill or you may miss
But at all times think this:
“All the pheasants ever bred
Won’t repay for one man dead.”

Keep your place and silent be;
Game can hear, and game can see;
Don’t be greedy, better spared
Is a pheasant, than one shared.

[Scully]

As well as shooting I also beat quite a lot,and so do many youngsters who don't necessarily come from shooting backgrounds and who have as their first gun a cheap but perfectly safe and functional semi-auto or pump.Now come beaters day,who am I to turn round to that lad or lass and tell them that their gun wont be welcome on our shoot? So long as they're safe I couldn't give a monkies chuff what they use.

Many of them shoot in the tatty old clothes they beat in,but some make the effort for a shirt and tie.They recognise the occassion and tradition because obviously they have been watching how the guns act and dress,and many aspire to the o/u and sxs they see in the drives,but they can't afford them,but until they can then they're welcome to use what they have,be that a semi or pump,or the odd Cooey and single barrelled BSA we've had in the line on occassions.These lads and lasses are ALL members of BASC and because I have taken most of them over the years to Young Shots Days,they also know how to remove and return a gun to and from its slip without sweeping the muzzles across everybody as they do so.Not something I can say about the vast majority of adult shots!

While it is traditional game shooting which has gone a long way to preserve our shooting,it is a double edged sword,and the perceived tradition and snobbery of Ruperts and Henrys scything birds out of the air while sipping Pimms and munching pastries from Fortnum and Masons hampers (and they do exist!) does us no favours.

It's not too long ago that o/u's were frowned upon,and if it wasn't for the fact that the aristocracy tried out the 'new fangled' design first (and liked it) they maybe still would be.

I doubt if the Duke of Westminster turned up with a semi auto much would be said.Live and let live I say.No harm done.

[shootgun]

As well as shooting I also beat quite a lot,and so do many youngsters who don't necessarily come from shooting backgrounds and who have as their first gun a cheap but perfectly safe and functional semi-auto or pump.Now come beaters day,who am I to turn round to that lad or lass and tell them that their gun wont be welcome on our shoot? So long as they're safe I couldn't give a monkies chuff what they use.

While it is traditional game shooting which has gone a long way to preserve our shooting,it is a double edged sword,and the perceived tradition and snobbery of Ruperts and Henrys scything birds out of the air while sipping Pimms and munching pastries from Fortnum and Masons hampers (and they do exist!) does us no favours.

It's not too long ago that o/u's were frowned upon,and if it wasn't for the fact that the aristocracy tried out the 'new fangled' design first (and liked it) they maybe still would be.

I doubt if the Duke of Westminster turned up with a semi auto much would be said.Live and let live I say.No harm done.

Well said mate

[Dangerous Brian]

 

Like everything if ur a safe gun u will also be safe with a semi but unfortuntely not every gun is as safe as they should be and i think using a semi would make it worse and harder to pick up on

Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page. Semis can be made as safe as break barrel, provided the effort is put in. However, the job of policing gun safety on a game shoot would become a nightmare for the shoot captain. As for beaters days, I can see a case for semis if no alternative is available but you would have to be very sure of those taking part.

 

Just for the record and just my opinion as a beater: It is nice to see a line of guns dressed up for the occasion. It would be a great shame to lose that but equally it shouldn't be seen as a barrier to anyone entering the sport. Anyone who's been to a gamefair can see it is quite easy to pick up the kit needed for a lot less than we pay for our smart phones and other modern "must haves".

[Salop Matt]

As well as shooting I also beat quite a lot,and so do many youngsters who don't necessarily come from shooting backgrounds and who have as their first gun a cheap but perfectly safe and functional semi-auto or pump.Now come beaters day,who am I to turn round to that lad or lass and tell them that their gun wont be welcome on our shoot? So long as they're safe I couldn't give a monkies chuff what they use.

Many of them shoot in the tatty old clothes they beat in,but some make the effort for a shirt and tie.They recognise the occassion and tradition because obviously they have been watching how the guns act and dress,and many aspire to the o/u and sxs they see in the drives,but they can't afford them,but until they can then they're welcome to use what they have,be that a semi or pump,or the odd Cooey and single barrelled BSA we've had in the line on occassions.These lads and lasses are ALL members of BASC and because I have taken most of them over the years to Young Shots Days,they also know how to remove and return a gun to and from its slip without sweeping the muzzles across everybody as they do so.Not something I can say about the vast majority of adult shots!

While it is traditional game shooting which has gone a long way to preserve our shooting,it is a double edged sword,and the perceived tradition and snobbery of Ruperts and Henrys scything birds out of the air while sipping Pimms and munching pastries from Fortnum and Masons hampers (and they do exist!) does us no favours.

It's not too long ago that o/u's were frowned upon,and if it wasn't for the fact that the aristocracy tried out the 'new fangled' design first (and liked it) they maybe still would be.

I doubt if the Duke of Westminster turned up with a semi auto much would be said.Live and let live I say.No harm done.

 

 

Well said.

 

ATB

 

Matt

[al4x]

 

 

Because, like turning up to a black tie event in jeans and flip flops, you are spoiling the day for everyone else who has scrimped and saved to have a day out there with you. A bit like having a greedy gun on the team. Yes, you could shoot at everything that comes close to you, but if you've paid for twenty birds per gun and someone shoots fifteen on the first drive themselves, you know it's going to be a long day.

If he has been a keeper on that size day I'd be amazed. We have a few shoots here that do that many and I know none who would accept autos unless a serious health issue. What you find is sportsmen who shoot a lot of game will drop down to even a 4.10 to reduce recoil.

Beaters on one shoot I go on can use autos on their day but the other shoots it's a definite no and they would be lent a gun instead. It's purely to keep the days special and not forgetting that any auto over 3 shots is illegal on game anyway

[r1steele]

If he has been a keeper on that size day I'd be amazed. We have a few shoots here that do that many and I know none who would accept autos unless a serious health issue. What you find is sportsmen who shoot a lot of game will drop down to even a 4.10 to reduce recoil.

Beaters on one shoot I go on can use autos on their day but the other shoots it's a definite no and they would be lent a gun instead. It's purely to keep the days special and not forgetting that any auto over 3 shots is illegal on game anyway

I have been a keeper on those size days and a .410 (not 4.10) would not have been very good on the high bird drives we used to produce. There is one shoot in particular in Northumberland where they produce some of the highest birds in the country and area using some very heavy loads so a .410 would be absolutely useless. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened. We did have the odd semi (on very rare occasions), one as I have said previously being a guest of my boss who was a Duke. Most big bird days would be double guns anyway so that would take out the semi-auto anyway, but they did appear on some of the smaller days.

[CharlieT]

Driven shooting is supposed to be a special day, a treat, a formal occasion. I hope nobody would turn up for a driven day in a tracksuit, same applies to the guns. It's about creating the right atmosphere and appearance, not about moaning about recoil or any of the other lame excuses for wanting to use a semi auto. Special occasions are enhanced by everyone joining in to the required standard. If you turned up at a wedding in jeans and a tshirt when a morning suit was the expectation you'd look ridiculous and spoil part of the day for everyone else who made an effort.

Well said Tim.

 

I find it quite extraordinary that people are happy to spend a considerable sum on clay shooting vests, glasses, entry fees, cartridges, waterproof coats and the like but balk at spending a few quid on a proper game gun for the sake of tradition.

 

If someone can't understand that autos and pumps have no place on a driven day then that's their choice but please don't book a day with us, as you won't make it to the first peg. Conforming to tradition and standards is just plain old fashioned good manners and people without manners I can do without.

[wymberley]

Well said Tim.

 

I find it quite extraordinary that people are happy to spend a considerable sum on clay shooting vests, glasses, entry fees, cartridges, waterproof coats and the like but balk at spending a few quid on a proper game gun for the sake of tradition.

 

If someone can't understand that autos and pumps have no place on a driven day then that's their choice but please don't book a day with us, as you won't make it to the first peg. Conforming to tradition and standards is just plain old fashioned good manners and people without manners I can do without.

Probably wouldn't be allowed past the Black Cat anyway - quite right too.

[CharlieT]

Probably wouldn't be allowed past the Black Cat anyway - quite right too.

 

That made me chuckle.

 

It's raining here and very windy and the birds aren't moving much, so I've taken a couple of hours off from dogging in and being bored I thought I would stir this thread up a little.

[welshwarrior]

That was from an instructor at a well known North West London ground.

 

It will be a he is correct but whilst bring the barrels to the stock the closed gun should point to the ground 4-8 feet in front of you (shouldn't be a beater that close!)

 

This method does 2 things

 

1 in my mind questionable puts less strain on the head of the stock ( it should not be that weak in a serviceable gun)

 

2 stops the gun pointing at you feet as the closes and may go off. I was loading 2 pegs down when an 'experienced' gun did this the sear failed as he closed the gun and blow his toes off. I spent 10 mins trying to steam the bleeding luckily I had an Army issue field dress and CAT in my hill bag.he lost 2 toes air ambulance ride etc.

 

It is the expected way to close a gun and is taught in most if not all good shooting schools (yes they shoot clays but are in the most training game shooter and the instructors are game shooters)

 

 

Sorry about the rant but it's something I'm passionate about.

[Bantam boy]

All very good valid points guys, but I think it's more about,etiquette,

Driven shooting,in this country at least,is surrounded by many rituals and formalities,from drawing peg numbers,to stopping at eleven, for a quick slug of sloe gin and a pork pie,plus there is a dress code as well, you wouldn't stand on a peg with a full camo suit on!

[brett1985]

Im going to have no choice but to use a semi on the beaters day this year, unless my shoulder heals up! Would be great to use a side by side but 1. I cant afford one as im saving for a wedding and 2. It would destroy my shoulder, even with light carts....

 

I do however understand the importance of the traditions, and will move back to a sxs or ou as soon as my body and wallet will allow...

[Dekers]

 

Times evolve, I accept that, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of tradition and etiquette in my book.

 

I would not want any part of a shoot where the guns dressed in Jimmy Savile tracksuits and used a Hatsan.

 

[bullet boy]

Use what you feel most comfortable with.

[Bantam boy]

And don't get invited again!

[grahamch]

_{I may be old fashioned but l can see no place for a semi auto on a driven day, or even on a rough shooting day in company. They are inherently more dangerous than a break barrel gun, no matter who is using them and I have regretablly owned a Benelli s/a.}

 

_{Best left for wildfowling or pigeons.}

 

_{As for using 3 shots if you cant hit a bird with two shots do you really deserve a third chance?}

[brett1985]

_{They are inherently more dangerous than a break barrel gun, no matter who is using them and I have regretablly owned a Benelli s/a.}

 

 

 

is that your opinion,or a fact?

 

not meaning to start an argument or go off topic but i find it incredibly odd that people will think nothing of taking a 150 year old shotgun to a driven pheasent day and rattle off up to 200 shots with it, and yet say that a 2 year old semi auto is more dangerous...

 

the fact is, once again, its not the gun that is more dangerous, its the person handling it.

 

if someone can give me factual evidence as to why a semi auto is more dangerous than any other shotgun, i may change my mind.

but until that point, i'll stick to the logic that in my hands, my semi auto is no more dangerous than any other shotgun...

[Tim Kelly]

How about a semi auto is more disconcerting for the other people at the shoot as it can't be broken, so is less obviously safe from a distance?

 

Beyond that, there's no good reason to have a semi at a driven shoot. It's not what others like to see and if you can afford to go driven shooting you can afford to have a suitable gun. The whole argument seems pointless to me.