rwade545 Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Hi, Well a while back I decided to treat myself to a beretta silver pigeon in 20 bore. Have a 12 guage 687 el and get on great with it. Have been using the 20 guage for some walk up rough shooting and am not getting the clean kills I did with the 12. Currently using gamebore gold 30gram number 6 wich are very soft on the shoulder ( use game bore 30 gram black gold number 6 in the 12). With the 12 it was rare that birds were not dead in the air and easily picked up but using the 20 I have had around 1/2 or more of the birds shot run on, a lot were not picks after appearing hard hit. Just not getting the clean kills I am used to wich is a pitty as shot well with the 20. Keep the ranges at which I take shots much the same. In the end used a 12 at the end of the day and was back up to a good clean kill ration. I know a lot of people use a 20 successfully on driven birds but was wondering if any one else using a 20 for walk up shooting? Any ideas as to what I can change? What cartridges is everyone else using? I'm thinking of going up to number 5s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Pattern the 2 guns make sure they are throwing the same sort of patterns the 20s may be patchy etc. If used properly the plate will also show if both guns shoot to the same place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blasterjudd Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Hi I also own 12s and 20s and I fear the issue you have is with density of the shot pattern i.e a 20g will have less shot in a circle than a 12 I use mainly my 20s as they are so much lighter for walked up rough shooting but find the same as you i hit more birds dead with the 12s! You need to be a bit more deadly with your 20. Afraid its a case of practise makes you better with a 20 also switching guns is not good and plays with the mind on which guns best! It can just be a physcological matter!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Try rc sipes in fibre wad 5 instead of 6 and pattern the two guns i found some makes in heavy loads blew the pattern to bits Also found in walked up rough shooting I was shooting at the back of the bird and they took a bit more stopping I shoot a beretta 20 to Shoot over spaniels for field trials 12 the rest of the time Edited January 2, 2014 by Old farrier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shropshire_Lad Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Do you find you are looking at more of the rib on your 20? I have a 12 and 20 bore Beretta and the view down the 12 looks a lot better on mine . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Do you find you are looking at more of the rib on your 20? I have a 12 and 20 bore Beretta and the view down the 12 looks a lot better on mine .Depends which one I had mine fitted to prevent that happening but if I just pick up one from the rack the sight picture is different Gun fit very important Pattern test for cartridge choice Ballance All important to shoot well Hope this helps All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) Hi I also own 12s and 20s and I fear the issue you have is with density of the shot pattern i.e a 20g will have less shot in a circle than a 12 !! If the guns are choked the same they will have the same amount of pellets in a 30" circle if both are 30g 6s. Edited January 3, 2014 by welshwarrior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp3k3y Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 i have found that eley vip 28 gram 6`s are about the best cartridge you can put through a 20 gauge, try them they are hard hitting and low felt recoil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 If the guns are choked the same they will have the same amount of pellets in a 30" circle if both are 30g 6s. I'm happy to bow to your knowledge here but just thinking about it logically (and if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly) then how can that be true? If you're putting the same amount of lead down barrels of different sizes then will they pattern the same at the same distance? E.g. if you had an O/U shotgun with a top barrel that was 12g and a bottom barrel that was 20g then surely they would pattern differently even if you put 30g 6's in both barrels? I know that the shape of the barrel (forcing cone, choke, etc) will control the shot pattern but can you really shape a 20g barrel to give exactly the same performance as a 12g barrel? Convention might suggest that the larger loads on smaller barrels will not perform as well as you try to force large amounts of lead down smaller barrels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningDJC Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Ive found with 20's you need to find the cartridge which suits your gun the best, but ive always found a 20 kills equally as well as a 12 when a good cartridge is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wj939 Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Had this problem myself when I exclusively used a 20 bore. Believe it or not but I got the best patterns out of 24gram carts when I patterned a few different shells and by far game bore were my least favoured shell in the 20. If you can get them get hull high pheasant, they do a 28 gram version too. Or if your really lucky I can recommend fioochi just availability that's the problem with these. As Welsh warrior says best thing to do is pattern them back to back it may be gun fit over cartridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 I'm happy to bow to your knowledge here but just thinking about it logically (and if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly) then how can that be true? If you're putting the same amount of lead down barrels of different sizes then will they pattern the same at the same distance? E.g. if you had an O/U shotgun with a top barrel that was 12g and a bottom barrel that was 20g then surely they would pattern differently even if you put 30g 6's in both barrels? I know that the shape of the barrel (forcing cone, choke, etc) will control the shot pattern but can you really shape a 20g barrel to give exactly the same performance as a 12g barrel? Convention might suggest that the larger loads on smaller barrels will not perform as well as you try to force large amounts of lead down smaller barrels. 30 gram of 6s is 30 gram of 6s whatever you throw it out of, same choke should give very similar patterns. Choke is relative to bore size so whatever bore it is you'll still be throwing the same sort of patterns with the same loads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwade545 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Cheers all, think I will use the 12 till the end of the season and then spend a little time patterning the gun with different cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) Hi I also own 12s and 20s and I fear the issue you have is with density of the shot pattern i.e a 20g will have less shot in a circle than a 12 I use mainly my 20s as they are so much lighter for walked up rough shooting but find the same as you i hit more birds dead with the 12s! You need to be a bit more deadly with your 20. Afraid its a case of practise makes you better with a 20 also switching guns is not good and plays with the mind on which guns best! It can just be a physcological matter!! Put simply you have less margin for error in a 20 than a 12! EDIT Just noticed that apparently an exactly similar load is being used in each. SO...the 20 is not being pointed in the right place then, simple! Edited January 3, 2014 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 30 gram of 6s is 30 gram of 6s whatever you throw it out of, same choke should give very similar patterns. Choke is relative to bore size so whatever bore it is you'll still be throwing the same sort of patterns with the same loads You may be right, I don't know, thats why I'm questioning it really. I just thought that whilst they might be the same weights of lead that they would perform differently depending on bore sizes, perhaps pattern on a flat plate might be similar at a set distance once all the shot has hit home but surely shot string would be different? If a 20g really does perform the same as a 12g then I can't see why 12g ever became popular, except for clays where the extra weight might help if you're putting hundreds of cartridges through it in a day and/or using really heavy loads. For game shooting I would imagine many people would chose a 20g if its peformance is exactly the same as a 12g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Connally Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 You may be right, I don't know, thats why I'm questioning it really. I just thought that whilst they might be the same weights of lead that they would perform differently depending on bore sizes, perhaps pattern on a flat plate might be similar at a set distance once all the shot has hit home but surely shot string would be different? If a 20g really does perform the same as a 12g then I can't see why 12g ever became popular, except for clays where the extra weight might help if you're putting hundreds of cartridges through it in a day and/or using really heavy loads. For game shooting I would imagine many people would chose a 20g if its peformance is exactly the same as a 12g. There is a theoretical advantage to a 12 bore over a 20 bore. The smaller diameter of the 20 bore means that you will have a longer shot column and more shot scrubbing on the inside of the barrel. This translates to more deformed shot for the same weight shot charge. Notice I said "theoretical advantage". I have never been able to notice this advantage in the field. Almost all of my hunting is done with a 20 bore. I am always prudent to use the best cartridges available. Good hard shot and good wads. My hunting here in the States is probably of a different type than yours, but I think a 20 is a very useful bore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis11 Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 I shoot with both 12 and 20, try RC T3 28grm 5 or Lyalvale Express 30grm 5. Just my choice but it works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Bought a 687 when they first came out in the 80`s,shot so badly with ,I patterned it....the quarter choke barrle was shooting pretty good FULL patterns! Had it opened to cylinder and light quarter which much improved it.Only used 24g cartridges for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheasant Plucker Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 If both 20 and 12 bore cartridges have the same shot size and the same load e.g. 28gr 6 and the respective guns have the same choke constriction, then the amount of pellets in the 30" circle should be pretty similar. However, one very important factor that has not been mentioned is the amount of powder used to propell the charge! The charge used in the 20 bore will be appreciably less tha the charge in the 12 bore consequently the kinetic energy will be less due to the slower speed (Having gained this energy during its acceleration the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes). So there you have it, the slower 20 bore will kill with the same energy up to a certain distance and the 12 a bit further. Check the speed of your cartridge in FPS and you will find that the lighter the load - the faster the cartridge will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) If both 20 and 12 bore cartridges have the same shot size and the same load e.g. 28gr 6 and the respective guns have the same choke constriction, then the amount of pellets in the 30" circle should be pretty similar. However, one very important factor that has not been mentioned is the amount of powder used to propell the charge! The charge used in the 20 bore will be appreciably less tha the charge in the 12 bore consequently the kinetic energy will be less due to the slower speed (Having gained this energy during its acceleration the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes). So there you have it, the slower 20 bore will kill with the same energy up to a certain distance and the 12 a bit further. Check the speed of your cartridge in FPS and you will find that the lighter the load - the faster the cartridge will be. The propellant in a 20 gauge cartridge will be slower generally for any given shot weight but will propel the shot at a similar speed to a 12 gauge. As an example I can use 21 grains of a fast powder such as Vectan AS with 28 grams of shot in a 12 gauge and get pretty much the same result as I would using a 20 grains of a slow powder such as Vectan A0 in a 20 gauge cartridge with 28 grams of shot. They will both have pretty much identical killing abilities. It's about choosing the correct components for any given application and the volume of powder is largely irrelevant when comparing different gauges Edited January 3, 2014 by sitsinhedges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheasant Plucker Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 The propellant in a 20 gauge cartridge will be slower generally for any given shot weight but will propel the shot at a similar speed to a 12 gauge. As an example I can use 21 grains of a fast powder such as Vectan AS with 28 grams of shot in a 12 gauge and get pretty much the same result as I would using a 20 grains of a slow powder such as Vectan A0 in a 20 gauge cartridge with 28 grams of shot. They will both have pretty much identical killing abilities. It's about choosing the correct components for any given application and the volume of powder is largely irrelevant when comparing different gauges Your correct but the object of the discussion is that "all other things being equal" - that the powder is the same type, then the smaller charge will be less effective at the same range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Your correct but the object of the discussion is that "all other things being equal" - that the powder is the same type, then the smaller charge will be less effective at the same range. If the powder is the same type and the shotload is the same the gun with the smaller bore would probably blow up due to overpressure. It wouldn't just go more slowly. The only way around that is to have significantly less shot in the smaller tube but then you're not comparing anything remotely similar so any comparison is pointless. Smaller bores tackle propelling higher payloads at normal speeds by using slower powders. Larger bores need faster powders to do the same to maintain pressures and get an efficient burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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