Shooterluke Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Hello pw I'm in a bit of a dilemma here i am currently watching a field of rape The farmer as told me to get on it .but the farmer rents the field of the estate witch the estate owner as told me that only people who beat for him can shoot the land .which when i told the farmer he told me he rents the field he says who shoots On it not the estate he also said if the estate man turns up tell him to go and see him an now he keeps asking if i have shot it which puts me in a position because I'm always thinking about if the estate man turns up i don't want to lose my permission of the farmer for not going what would your do in this situation an who has the say the farmer renting or the estate thanks a lot luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Shoot it , the tennant generally has the rights to control the vermim . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I would shoot it and if anyone came i would just tell them i had permission to do so from the farmer.If they have a problem tell them to have a word with the farmer who rents it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooterluke Posted February 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Last time he stopped me i said ive got permission to be here politley an he said yes and said ive got the shooting rights so dont no what to do the farmer as rented the farm since is father as deid his dad had it i think for aroundr 20 year before he deid all rented off the same estate owner it really boils my **** when these beaters who have permission of the estate you never see shoot the land .when im willing in the **** weather but like a said im in a awqward position if i went an saw the farmer he would tell me to tell him to get lost because he doesent want people who beat for him on his land he doesent no them theres bad blood between the farmer an estate other previous problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I would shoot on the land and if anyone from the Estate questioned me, I would refer them to the Farmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I would shoot on the land and if anyone from the Estate questioned me, I would refer them to the Farmer. I would shoot it if challenged I to would refer them to the Farmer who wants his crop protected. Do the beaters intend to shoot at the week ends if so shoot it Friday . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 In general the tenant farmer usually has the right to give someone the opportunity to control the vermin but there are circumstances where it may be written into the sporting rights where they have the obligation to control the vermin. If these obligations are not met by the sporting rights owner the tenant may again nominate someone to do it. I would try and contact the estate and ask for verification as to whether the owner of the sporting rights also has the vermin shooting and also ask the farmer to check his tenancy to see if there is anything in the small print saying something along these lines. If you carry on and shoot and the sporting rights include vermin control you may be committing armed trespass. It's all well and good people telling you to carry on but it's not their certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Is there any chance of getting permission in WRITING from the Farmer ? At least then, if the fertiliser hits the fan, you have a reasonable defence. I was in a syndicate where we had a problem with a Tennant Farmer letting people go shooting. The Estate then sent out letters to all of the Tennant Farmers explaining that the part time Keeper had to be informed of any vermin problems. Then and ONLY then, if the Keeper took no action,was the Farmer allowed to deal with the vermin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh man Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Why not have a word with the keeper and offer your service to go beating your self, he normally have a say who shoot the pigeons I worked on a large estate and even if one of the tenant farmers rang me to go on there land I would always ring our keeper first If he hear your shooting he is going to come and see who it is, and even if you told him you have got permission I don't think he would be to happy .By keeping every one happy it could lead to more shooting later especially if you say the beaters are not interested ,If you cant beat them join em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooterluke Posted February 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I have got written permission an i have also asked about beating an he said no he's got close friends who do it for him thanks for replys every one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerSim Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 In general the tenant farmer usually has the right to give someone the opportunity to control the vermin but there are circumstances where it may be written into the sporting rights where they have the obligation to control the vermin. If these obligations are not met by the sporting rights owner the tenant may again nominate someone to do it. I would try and contact the estate and ask for verification as to whether the owner of the sporting rights also has the vermin shooting and also ask the farmer to check his tenancy to see if there is anything in the small print saying something along these lines. If you carry on and shoot and the sporting rights include vermin control you may be committing armed trespass. It's all well and good people telling you to carry on but it's not their certificate. My thoughts exactly - if this went "wrong", it could get very messy indeed.... your shooting organisation may be able to help.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) If you have written permission get on the land and shoot the pigeons. I shoot a number of farms that have shoots on them. All tenant farmers have the right to have a gun to control vermin. That is unless the shoot has it written into their lease that he can not, and they control the vermin. which is what I have done with some land we lease. Edited February 15, 2014 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDRsniper Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Have had a very similar situation when shooting on a leased field. Had a woman screaming that we trespassing etc etc...I called my farmer who quickly put her back in her box saying we were licensed, insured and shooting with his permission (all true) as the tennant he has every right to give permission to shoot on land which he pays for or owns. Shoot the pigeons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postie Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 if you have written permission from farmer it may be worth you giving the firearms officer a ring and get there view on the situation atleast you've covered yourself with them then I don't know worth a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) I would continue shooting the pigeon and has been said refer anyone to your farmer and let him argue the toss.I would not bring the FEO into the equation. They would, IMO not be interested in your dilema but would assume your 'written permission' was not valid, possibly causing you greater problems.Do not alienate the estate owner but request that he speaks to the farmer to over come the problem that he has, try to show that you are responsible and would benefit him also. I would have thought that if the estate controlled all shooting they would have 'stopped you shooting' by now. It's one thing to have all shooting rights and another not to want some one shooting vermin on part of your game shoot. Let the farmer know your concerns, (without causing him a problem) and be reassured by his response. Edited February 17, 2014 by Good shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michufc Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I would get it in writing from the farmer so you have it in black and white because the keeper will be coming to see you if he gets told someone is shooting on his land. But also go and introduce yourself to the keeper and explain the situation and politely tell him that you are going to shoot it and that you want no animosity between you both. Give him your details ie insurance / name and address and phone number so if he gets a call he could ring you and save himself the hassle of coming out. You never no if handled correctly it could Lead on to more shooting. All the best mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Whilst most tenancies include the right to manage vermin/pests I would not shoot it without unequivocal permission. The answer here is for the farmer to clarify the position with the estate owner.It may well be that the estate owner has kept all shooting rights, including pest control (although not normal) on the tenanted parcel of land. If the farmer went to the owner and said I have my crops being hammered and am going to shoot it/give such permissions then so long as the tenancy agreement states this the farmer can shoot/permit you to shoot. The estate owner is on sticky ground legally unless he retains the shooting...but it is a situation for the farmer to resolve..in your position as it stands I would NOT shoot it. The estate owner still owns the land and a case of armed trespass would be possible if he was bloody minded enough......The worst thing to do is sit in a hide worrying about it.....get clarification 1st. atb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Whilst most tenancies include the right to manage vermin/pests I would not shoot it without unequivocal permission. The answer here is for the farmer to clarify the position with the estate owner.It may well be that the estate owner has kept all shooting rights, including pest control (although not normal) on the tenanted parcel of land. If the farmer went to the owner and said I have my crops being hammered and am going to shoot it/give such permissions then so long as the tenancy agreement states this the farmer can shoot/permit you to shoot. The estate owner is on sticky ground legally unless he retains the shooting...but it is a situation for the farmer to resolve..in your position as it stands I would NOT shoot it. The estate owner still owns the land and a case of armed trespass would be possible if he was bloody minded enough......The worst thing to do is sit in a hide worrying about it.....get clarification 1st. atb. As I said in quote #7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 To the best of my knowledge a Tenant Farmer does not have the right per se to control avian pests. Unless his tenancy agreement permits him to do so he is not in a position to give anyone permission to do so. Whilst I appreciate that most estate owners would not object to their tenants doing so, the wishes of an estate that has, for one reason or another, decided to say no must be observed. Remember that the estate have said no and that they could report you for armed trespass................its your license you risk. Tell the farmer to sort it out with the estate, if he won't then walk away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 The CPS guidelines state what they look for when deciding whether to prosecute someone. A person commits an offence if, while he has a firearm [or imitation firearm] with him, he enters or is on any land as a trespasser and without reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) From that, I would have thought that the tenants permission grants you a reasonable excuse to be on the land (with the burden of proof on you to show that was the case). Considering that trespass is a civil tort, and armed trespass a criminal offence its hard to know what similarities can be drawn between the two. Alternatively with offences, that also involve being on someones else's property, I think you must either know that you don't have permission or "be reckless" as to the fact. If that was the case here then knowing the estate owner has said no, and going ahead on the farmers permission anyway, may be seen as you being reckless and combined with the fact your on the land complete the requirements for the offence. Then again it may simply be a strict liability offence, although that would seem slightly unreasonable considering the possible penalties. Just my 2pence I wouldn't go on knowing the estate owner is against it without getting some proper advice or getting the farmer to sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longchalk Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The Keeper & the farmer have a beef... You are only ever going to be the pickle in the sandwich. Walk away, and find somewhere else to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad93 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Owner of the land has sporting rights, tenant farmer has the right to control vermin on land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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