More .22 sub stuff

[turbo33]

I'm still waiting for a reply to my email to Winchester about their subs, "Daniel" was going off to check the batch number and obviously hasn't found his way back yet

So in the meantime, a quick question to the rimfire experts out there. My CZ 452 does well with Eley subs, but whilst they chamber ok, the bolt is slightly tight to close. So I cycled a few today to see what was holding up. It seems the case is fine and un marked, but the bullet head must be a fraction larger than the Winnies and there's a slight witness on the lead from being chambered.

 

My question is......would you think the tighter fit is detrimental? I am thinking that maybe one of the reasons the Eleys are so dam accurate in mine is because the rifling gets to do its stuff with a slightly larger head.

 

Any thoughts?

[drut]

Can't see it doing any harm provided you can extract OK.Last Eleys I measured were .225/.226 compared to .224 for Winnies,only measured because my Brno 581 wouldn't cycle them but they were fine through my CZ452.Measured with el cheapo digi calipers so may not be exact.

[turbo33]

Thanks Drut, yup I would say your measurements concur with the fit

[rem708]

The lead is so soft on subs that they will swage with little effort.

 

I don't know if much has changed but years ago Eley were always heavily waxed so this could be your problem i.e. thicker layer of lube

[Whitebridges]

Eley subs also feel a little tight in my Anschutz 1417 Great round though so heyho.

 

RWS are my preferred subsonic HP, smooth to cycle and quiet as a mouse. Also seem to have a softer bullet and slightly less velocity which I consider an advantage.JMHO

Edited May 9, 2014 by Whitebridges

[turbo33]

Eley subs also feel a little tight in my Anschutz 1417 Great round though so heyho.

 

RWS are my preferred subsonic HP, smooth to cycle and quiet as a mouse. Also seem to have a softer bullet and slightly less velocity which I consider an advantage.JMHO

 

Thanks for the input WB . RWS seem to be quite a popular choice accuracy wise. My local dealer is getting some in so will give those a try too

[steve_b_wales]

If the lead head is damaged or deformed, it could possibly affect the accuracy.

[bear-uk]

My Anscultz shaves some of the lead off the Eley's when loading. Great round but a tad tight for me.

[bruno22rf]

I use RWS only since Eley subs seemed to drop in quality a few years back (btw-RWS do a HV HP that's dammed good )-I have noticed that some types of .22 do seem harder to chamber (CCI Stinger were the worst because they were soooo long) but this only seems to effect accuracy if you chamber a round more than once.

[Fisheruk]

My 452 doesn't seem to vary whatever sub I use. Doesn't like cb longs. My understanding is that the head lead is so soft the rifling simple imprints the bullet head given it the unique print you get with every rifle barrel. It it still groups well that's all that matters.

[Ben W.]

Eleys are also slightly tight in my 452, enough to leave slight striations on the lead. I do find it slightly inconvenient when it comes to chambering the next round as the additional effort pushes the rifle off shot. They do still group well though. I use SK's though as they group better at range and cycle very smoothly so I can stay down for a second shot easier.

 

Try SK's, may be slightly more expensive but another quality ammo.

[turbo33]

Thanks Ben. Yes SK's seem to be another popular choice, but no one round here sells them

[Full Pelt]

Eley subs also feel a little tight in my Anschutz 1417 Great round though so heyho.

 

RWS are my preferred subsonic HP, smooth to cycle and quiet as a mouse. Also seem to have a softer bullet and slightly less velocity which I consider an advantage.JMHO

 

I'd agree with this.

 

Of the bands of .22lr subs I've tried recently indoors RWS are the among the quietest, and CCI Segmented definately the loudest. It's difficult to tell the difference with the wind blowing outside !

 

RWS also give the tightest groups in my rifle (CZ 452), although they are very greasy and filthy to handle.

 

Winchesters are currently way off par and a waste of money.

 

Another good bag of bunnies last night after the last of the showers.

[LeadWasp]

Agree with comments on RWS although they are dirty little burners. They just look well made compared to Wins.

 

I tried some Remington subs recently - I thought they might be a bit cheap and nasty - but was surprised as to how good and consistent the finish was AND that they are equal dibs for accuracy for me alongside RWS.

 

Just a thought......I saw a Finnish web post, which typically I can't now locate to link to, showing sectioned new and recovered spent rounds from Win, RWS, Fiocci, Rem etc. I noticed how much more deformed certain spent rounds were compared to others. Does the lead alloy hardness have something to do with it (considering subtle variations in energy between the rounds) AND would this also affect ricochet potential? In other words would a harder alloy bullet be more likely to ricochet or in other words one brand more so over another?

[turbo33]

Agree with comments on RWS although they are dirty little burners. They just look well made compared to Wins.

 

I tried some Remington subs recently - I thought they might be a bit cheap and nasty - but was surprised as to how good and consistent the finish was AND that they are equal dibs for accuracy for me alongside RWS.

 

Just a thought......I saw a Finnish web post, which typically I can't now locate to link to, showing sectioned new and recovered spent rounds from Win, RWS, Fiocci, Rem etc. I noticed how much more deformed certain spent rounds were compared to others. Does the lead alloy hardness have something to do with it (considering subtle variations in energy between the rounds) AND would this also affect ricochet potential? In other words would a harder alloy bullet be more likely to ricochet or in other words one brand more so over another?

 

I too tried some Remingtons. The "know it all" staff member said they were a waste of money. They were quite the opposite and pretty good, accurate and consistent at 50 yards and under £3 a box!

 

I'm sure the harder the bullet, the more likely it is to ricochet. I haven't had a ricochet from Winchesters, but on the same range, I had some with the Eleys.

[Berettacocker]

Never tried Eleys in my old Brno always stuck to Winchester Subs, never let me down. Did try some CCI 's in the 90's and every 4th or 5th shot was way off target!

[Redgum]

If they are a little tight it will be only the bands touching the rifling so the bullets will not be deformed and effect accuracy. If the bullets are all the same it should be fine but if they differ in dia from bullet to bullet then the pressures may alter slightly and open out groups. The biggest danger though is extracting an unfired rnd and the bullet head remaining. I had a some eley's that were a bit tight and I gave the chamber a good clean as you will get wax build up, it solved the problem and I still use eley's though I suppose it could have been a bad batch slightly over sized.

[Euget123]

Eleys are deadly accurate in my 455 but as said a nightmare to chamber!

Ive been using winchester pretty much since i got the rifle, which was only a few months ago so im still very much learning,but i havent had any issues with them yet!

They keep good groups within an inch at 50m and wen i do my bit the rabbits dont complain much!

[turbo33]

If they are a little tight it will be only the bands touching the rifling so the bullets will not be deformed and effect accuracy. If the bullets are all the same it should be fine but if they differ in dia from bullet to bullet then the pressures may alter slightly and open out groups. The biggest danger though is extracting an unfired rnd and the bullet head remaining. I had a some eley's that were a bit tight and I gave the chamber a good clean as you will get wax build up, it solved the problem and I still use eley's though I suppose it could have been a bad batch slightly over sized.

 

Your spot on Redgum, its just a bit of a "kissing" on the bands.

I picked up a box of RWS yesterday to try. On examining them, I'm not surprised people are getting good results with them. The bullet heads look as well made and consistent throughout the box as an Eley and of similar design. It makes the winnies I have look very poorly made. I can understand the knockdown power of the Winnies being highly rated though, as its a gaping hollow point compared to any of the others. However, you have to hit it first

[Bewsher500]

I was told by someone from GMK that the reason the Sako Quad has extraction issues (apart from the dual purpose extractor claw not being a perfect fit on the LR case) is that the chambers are deliberately cut slightly shorter than some other to make sure the bands DO kiss the lands which they feel aids accuracy.

means that the bullet can be slightly sticky to extract when unfired

 

can't fault the accuracy

 

that said anyone who has tried to pull a .22lr bullet out of the case will know it has a tight crimp lip that requires considerable force and case deformation to pop them out

a sticky chamber jam is highly unlikely to allow that

[dadioles]

I do not use Ely because I found them too tight to chamber (CZ and Anschutz).

 

There is no advantage to a tight fitting bullet. Just the nuisance of having to apply extra pressure to the bolt in order to chamber the round.

 

It seems to be the lead that is oversize, not the brass. Removing a chambered bullet when unloading can be awkward with a tight fit.

 

I want a smooth easy bolt action, not something that requires force. SK Subs are my bullet of choice but my local suppliers no longer stock them so it is getting difficult.

 

Every gun is different, you really must try several different makes of ammunition to find what YOUR gun shoots best.

[Bewsher500]

only ones that required force for me in the Quad were CCI segmented

everything else chambers smoothly without force

there is a difference between touching the lands and being jammed into them

[Brad93]

My CZ found the Eley Subs a bit tight in the face. Winchester subs are much better and shoot a better group

[wymberley]

I'm with Drut regarding size and Rem708 regarding the muck. I used Eley until the points they both raised cropped up. It doesn't matter how accurate a round is as if, particularly at night, you can open the bolt (Anschutz) leaving the unfired round in the chamber, then they are useless for obvious reasons. Moved to SK which turned out to be even more accurate in my rifle with a negligible SD which is some achievement in a rimfire.

[kent]

If they are a little tight it will be only the bands touching the rifling so the bullets will not be deformed and effect accuracy. If the bullets are all the same it should be fine but if they differ in dia from bullet to bullet then the pressures may alter slightly and open out groups. The biggest danger though is extracting an unfired rnd and the bullet head remaining. I had a some eley's that were a bit tight and I gave the chamber a good clean as you will get wax build up, it solved the problem and I still use eley's though I suppose it could have been a bad batch slightly over sized.

 

Had this once with some cheap stuff and thank goodness I checked