propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 O.K. chaps, let us have a sensible conversation regarding how to get shotgun cartridges onto the market. If you were me and you decided to make shotgun cartridges with up to date machinery and have all of the Licenses etc in place, how would you get them out there ? Before you answer back, if I can save you a little time, some of the gun shops I have approached, have come back to me with various answers. The main one is, that when they place an Order to a cartridge Company, they expect 28 days credit or possibly longer. Let me say from the beginning, that itself is not a problem. The other main answer is, who are you Proper Cartridges? never heard of you. My main attack was to get them in the hands of the end user and keep speaking to the end user directly and if he likes them, he would walk into his local gun shop and say the cartridges are good, or whatever, can you get some in for me ? But also chaps, let me tell you that I have had the following answers back:- Cartridges are not worth handling, I would sooner buy guns than buy cartridges. Cartridges are heavy to handle and I only make a couple of quid per 1,000. You are a new brand, why should people buy yours ? I don't want any more choice, I think I have quite enough as it is. So I think these are quite enough examples of what some gun shops say to me. We hear so much about Express, how did they do it ? Some people tell me there was a shortage at that time, due to the accident at Eley. This was mentioned, whether it was true or not, I do not know. To conclude, my means of attack is to get them directly into the hands of the end user and so they will approach their local gun shop, to get my cartridges into stock. From the 3 advertised prices of my cartridges, there is definitely some room for the Trade, on 2 of them ;- My Hi Speed at £209 and my 32 GRAM at £189 Unfortunately, I can offer no more than £10 including vat discount to the Trade on my 30g 6 Ultimate Game at £169 In my humble opinion, Trade is any person / persons who buys a job lot of 20,000 or more in one Order. Yes I am open for deals, especially if you are a new person in a new area, to get them going in your vicinity. Let us have some sensible replies please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 you just need to have friends in shops. full stop. they have purchase deals in place with other manufacturers.... if they start to sell yours as an alternate, then its handbags at 50 paces. what you may want to consider is trying to have some shops as a premium dealer. you could also try and sell through "just cartridges" i`m lead to believe they are sensible and buy big quantities.... of late there have been some sponsorships, dare i say digweed, faulds, amber, to name but a few... probbly this isnt an option. maybe target new rfd, if you know any, that could be the start of a beautiful relationship. the other thing you can do is directly target syndicates who purchase shells... then get them to commit to 20k shells. problem with that george, say 10 guys get together, 4 drop out. they buy the shells anyway, its going to take along time before they are able to purchase again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 this is a good one now chaps don't spoil it as my mate mr zapp is watching what do you think of the typing now everybody sinsable answers now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Hi Just my thoughts The bulk sold by shops are budget clay loads proberably 60/40 split plastic /fiber wad shot 7/8/9 The 3 loads your promoting are for serious pigeon high bird shooters Possibly a shop won't turn them over fast enough to get them sold by the time they pay for them I'm sure it's a good product and its going to be hard for you Anyway just my thoughts All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinF Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) Express, Eley, Gambore etc will have a significant marketing budget, look at how much advertising the Gamebore Black Gold range get in the shooting press. As above, I would try Just Cartridges and Clay Shooting "R" Us. How about giving some samples to the magazines and ask them to include your products in the monthly cartridge tests/reviews? You need a much better website, compare your current one with the others..... I would also be in touch with shooting grounds as they use 1,000's of cartridges in lessons. If they can buy your cartridges cheaper, it obviously increases their profit on lessons. Most gun shops only stock cartridges as a service to their customers, as you say, there isn't much money in it and they are heavy and bulky, so they are probably not the best place to start? Edited August 5, 2014 by ColinF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lister1 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Have you approached any of the magazines? get them to do a test and a write up on some of your products. I would think its a quick way of getting alot of people to see what you can do. just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 right chaps so far so good so I am trying at this moment to get them in the hands of the end user so he can try them and report back for the full blown job on adverts for what they want on adds I can travel the country meet some of you give you sum carts and shoot sum pigeons I bet you for say £500 on a add I can travel the country stay in travel lodge and meet 2 new people every day for at least a week and get a bit of shooting in different places is that not nicer than stuck here waiting for the phone to ring wood you not like to do that if you were my sales rep?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Have you tried all the local shooting grounds ...Thimbelby has just reopened and then there's oak lodge i know some of the lads there like your carts kirky is one of them then there is kdubya and quite a few more.. Have you been to J Marsh's clay shoot its on this Sunday and every 2 weeks . people are always buying carts at the clay grounds.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 the clays r chopped to pieces theres no where to go on price ever heard the saying busy fool!!! its the pigeon and game I am after you can make sum money there but not on clays Thomas from eley said to me years ago they just keep the doors open with clays and just pay the bills its the game stuff they make the money on as before you tell me the cheapest cart for clays you know then go back to express at £240 for 25 gram why and how??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Try BBC dragons den - get a dragon on board. You miss the point re advertising at £500. By driving the country you meet a few people from the forum but an advert in a magazine will be read by say 30,000 or more shooters. No good trying to sell via clay clubs when the three cartridges you want to sell (or list so far) are all pigeon/game. good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Have you tried all the local shooting grounds ...Thimbelby has just reopened and then there's oak lodge i know some of the lads there like your carts kirky is one of them then there is kdubya and quite a few more.. Have you been to J Marsh's clay shoot its on this Sunday and every 2 weeks . people are always buying carts at the clay grounds.. Good answer I think this might be a way to move some volume to people who might care more about price with a good cartridge rather than selling the very best. They will soon get feedback on the quality of your cartridges and that may work in your favour. I, like many, will read your posts about how good your cartridges are, and they may well be, but I have no experience of them and no way of buying them easily to find out for myself. I would love to try them but until a shop stocks them near me it is unlikely to happen as I am an end user not a retailer. I really do wish you all the very best with this venture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 where is walmington on sea cannot find it on google earth or nearest place please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 where is walmington on sea cannot find it on google earth or nearest place please That's where Captain Mainwaring had his platoon of Home Guard soldiers! Still waiting for some of your cartridges George! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 you see mr malkiserow is it not a better way for you to somehow get some carts in your hands shoot them if you do like them go and say to your local shop that you like them and can he get you sum that's it or if he has them how to get you to shoot them no I believe the shooter has to do the pushing that's my honest feeling you have to try them first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 That's where Captain Mainwaring had his platoon of Home Guard soldiers! Still waiting for some of your cartridges George! am trying to do the run from Friday now where is this place please sensible answers please big boss is watching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIDES EDGE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) you see mr malkiserow is it not a better way for you to somehow get some carts in your hands shoot them if you do like them go and say to your local shop that you like them and can he get you sum that's it or if he has them how to get you to shoot them no I believe the shooter has to do the pushing that's my honest feeling you have to try them first PM sent I agree with you. I just cold not see how to try them locally. It's a catch 22 position. Edited August 5, 2014 by malkiserow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I work in a small farm shop where we are bombarded by new companies with new products some of whome could talk the hind legs off a donkey, what we say to them is to leave us some samples, we also get plenty phone call's asking if companies can send new products, we as a group sit down and try them all and if any look and taste good we stock it, what i am saying is get some of your cartridges out to the shops and even some of the more reputable shooters off here and if they are as good as you say they will sell themselves. now i know this will cost but in retail you have to speculate to accumulate, i for one don't do enough with the shotgun to try them but there are plenty of genuine people on here who could, just my thoughts and how new companies do it in the food retail business Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) This is my two pennies worth. George you say the clay carts are not where the money is. I can understand that but its where most sales are, brand dominance is everything. If people like Gambore clay carts, chances are they buy Gamebore game and pigeon carts, or are more inclined to as they trust the product already. If you start with your budget clay cart, but make it a very good performer that is soft to shoot so its a good club cart that can still do the buisness, you can then start adding premium loads at a higher price with a bit more speed and more kick, because folk like more bang for their buck. Some folk don't like cheap shells they like to look like a star with the top of the range, human nature. People will then look for your game carts to stick with what they like, and loads use clay loads for pigeons so your 30g 6s or even a 28g 6s carts become very usable to a lot of people as they are clay cart priced. Could even be a clay and game cart at 28g 6.5/7 shot use the same cart for both. Your Web site George has always been a big letdown for us shooters, no info at all on each cartridges break down and characteristics. People like to look and read about intended purchases, the then don't feel like their taking a leap in the dark. Take the budget Trust cartridge a write up in the Magazines and stocked by Just Cartridges, people have read about them being compared favourably to other carts that know of and can get hold of them easily. George you have a good product that does all we need, you just need to get it out their more. I used both your clay and game carts years ago as did many local shooters because we could buy them locally from Richardsons or further north another Dealer and Ground. The Proper Little Devils and the Proper Snipe 32g 5.5s and both performed well. But disappeared from the shelves and looking online at your website just didn't give any info on stockists or anything other than your phone number. Figgy Edited August 5, 2014 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Offer some for trial at game fairs for shooting coaches to try? Ask BASC if they fancy trialling some? Or the CPSA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Let me say this. I can go and get Gamebore, Eley, Lyvale, RC and Hull cartridges easily. Standard game loads are made by every company so unless yours are radar guided or something why are they better than brand x? IMHO you need to find a niche market, and one of those would be wildfowling and non toxic loads, in steel AND OTHERS. Bismuth and Tungsten are getting hard to source. Now if you had something like that......... One of the gunshops in the area used to stock your cartridges but at the time (around 2010) they were charging £70 a slab and I could get Gamebore Super Game at £55 why go for something new and unproven which is more expensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Express, Eley, Gambore etc will have a significant marketing budget, look at how much advertising the Gamebore Black Gold range get in the shooting press. As above, I would try Just Cartridges and Clay Shooting "R" Us. How about giving some samples to the magazines and ask them to include your products in the monthly cartridge tests/reviews? You need a much better website, compare your current one with the others..... I would also be in touch with shooting grounds as they use 1,000's of cartridges in lessons. If they can buy your cartridges cheaper, it obviously increases their profit on lessons. Most gun shops only stock cartridges as a service to their customers, as you say, there isn't much money in it and they are heavy and bulky, so they are probably not the best place to start? Having had a quick read of the thread the question I keep asking is "what makes your product more buyable than the next"? In other words what is your unique selling point? What would tempt me to buy yours? Who is/are your market? Not having a pop but answers to this sort of stuff weren't coming across. They are the sort of questions I ask myself at work. As ColinF says above ( about the magazines ) good editorial is worth it's weight in gold and nearly free, whereas advertising costs a lot. Advertising should be used only as part of a more comprehensive marketing plan and much more can be done effectively with a small budget BEFORE you pay for adverts. Good luck though - hope it goes well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 George, Seriously how often do you watch dragon den and here them say that to build new brand or new product awareness cost a lot of money with most in front of the dragons completely underestimating the true cost of doing so. Just look at the advertising the major players in the UK do, you pick up almost any shooting magazine and they will have whole pages adverts in them. Even on the reloading components, who cannot have failed to see the Clay and Game adverts again such adverts are unlikely to be cheap and no advertising guarantees sales. May be you need to focus the advertising with the three cartridges you have for sale, why not try an advert in the BASC magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Or give a few slabs to Andy Crow he's always in the mag's with his pigeon shooting...ask him to test them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkycorksta Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Wow, suddenly I can understand everything George says without google translate. Proper impressed, I am Put me down for a thousand next time your near dorset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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