southeastpete Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 So many times I have read people saying they think there should be a better system in place, of proving competency etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 We will agree to disagree on this one - Because as far as i am concerned you seem to choose what you want to understand and not the whole picture. Merely changing what i wrote to something else implies i was wrong - I was making a point. Not a statement. The 'point' you were making was to indicate why YOU 'would not issue for a start', I was pointing out that that scenario wasn't likely to take place as no one in their right mind wanting a SGC would reply to their FEO in that manner, scenario or otherwise. I have been shooting since before the licence came into force so i think i have some valid opinion (NOTE OPINION) on the matter. The fact you may have been shooting since jesus was a lad has no bearing on the validity or otherwise of your opinions, nor on mine; both are totally irrelevant. The fact remains no one has to show a good reason to own a SGC; merely stating they have a desire to shoot clays or game is enough. IF you understood my post, you would note i was not having a go at anyone, but making a point about - You do not need to show any reason to hold an SGC. I think we do.Simply because you think we do need to show reason to own a SGC does't make it so. Because the post i replied to implied that that was basically all you needed to say about having one and not any other reason. You wrote - I don't need a (an) SGC- etc etc etc- but i would like to have a gun of my own one day. I think we're at crossed purposes here. Your initial scenario had your FEO asking why an applicant NEEDS an SGC, but nobody NEEDS an SGC; they apply for one because they WANT one, they do not have to display a NEED or good reason, unlike a FAC; the fact they want to take up shooting is enough. Well first off you would need an SGC before you own/buy a gun. Legally, of course. An SGC is Granted not given I'm not sure what point you're making here. If your reason for having an SGC is choice - God help us. God help us? Why? What will be gained by anyone having to prove a need or good reason to own a shotgun? Like I said, even if an applicant states they want to take up clay pigeon shooting and undergoes a probationary period at a club; who or what has benefitted from this, apart from a monetary gain by the club? What has it proved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) I have one or two myself. My main point is - That everyone who owns or applies for an SGC (or FAC for that matter) should have a valid reason to own one. This is my opinion and view on the matter. You have to pass a test to drive a car on your own and i think an SGC should be held in higher regard. Try getting one in France -we have it so soft here in that respect. Everyone seems really naffed off about having a reason to own one - WHY? ? Spouting- its are right etc is all well and good but its not an opinion or view Not spouting simply saying it as it is YOU DO NOT need to prove a reason to own a shotgun,all you have to do is be of good character and have a secure location to keep it, when they change the law ( plod does not do that he applies it) fair enough at the moment the law as said requires no reason,so if we then allow a CPO who is on mission following his forces past incompetence as with Durham and implementing all and any dreampt up hurdle, then we may as well do away with parliament and wave the flags to a ruling junta. KW Edited February 1, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) I have one or two myself. My main point is - That everyone who owns or applies for an SGC (or FAC for that matter) should have a valid reason to own one.But we already DO have valid reasons to own them. This is my opinion and view on the matter. You have to pass a test to drive a car on your own and i think an SGC should be held in higher regard. Try getting one in France -we have it so soft here in that respect. We're not in France. The UK has some of the most restrictive firearms legislation in the western world. Everyone seems really naffed off about having a reason to own one - WHY? ? Again, we HAVE reason. I could equally ask why some people appear so hellbent on frittering away what little freedoms of choice we still have. Spouting- its are right etc is all well and good but its not an opinion or view If 'it's our right' isn't an opinion or view what is it? A fact? It is a right unless excluded by law as far as I'm aware. Edited February 1, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Wouldn't the knowledge that an applicant has just returned from a Jihad training camp cast doubts as to their suitability and entitlement to obtaining a SGC? And our security forces know everyone who has just come back from 'training' right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith RW Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Just put in my application for my SGC with Merseyside. I'd like to think that they wouldn't do this, considering my age, 23. However, I think they would measure up an application through age, occupation, location etc - Much like car insurance. I know that occupation has nothing to do with it, but it may be one of the things they look at. no they shouldn't as that would be "ageist" and therefore discriminatory and that's not what its all about..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Can someone explain where it is written that it is everything citizens right to have a sgc. As I cant find it anywhere but then I am not that good with computers. If it is my right why does it have to be granted.My understanding of a right was always that you needed no permissions to pursue it.In America it is written into the constitution but I can't find it in our magna carta or any other official notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 And our security forces know everyone who has just come back from 'training' right? funny old me it had never crossed my mind that a would be terrorist would go off to a jee harr training camp be trained in weapon and explosive handling usually with weapons akin to an ak47 to then return to create mayhem and havoc , but before setting out on his murderous deeds he would first apply for a SGC and sit and wait for the application to be processed and then have a nice cup of tea and a biccy with his FLO KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) And our security forces know everyone who has just come back from 'training' right? I have no idea, but they don't seem to be doing too bad so far. Our licensing authorities can only act on known information, and that applies equally to you or I. On what other basis can any of us be judged? I know as much about you as you do about me, but I'm assuming your licensing authority are satisfied of your entitlement to the extent they've issued you with a SGC or FAC? If they had no knowledge of your Jihadist training and all other criteria was met then they would have no reason not to grant wouldn't they? Unless you stated 'terrorism' or 'the implementation of an islamic state in the UK' as your good reason of course. Edited February 1, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 but can't recall walking around with an erection as a result. Oh, bad luck! It makes a very handy monopod when free standing shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Do you mean like the IRA did? Please; aren't we straying into the realms of fantasy now?. Looking at the bigger picture though, we have fanatical enemies in our midst: Fantasy? We have fanatical extremists who don't mind being killed in our midst. What law is in place to prevent a bunch of guys who decide they would like to excercise their right to carry shotguns anywhere they want - and the police are not allowed to say no SGC because they don't even have a hint of a reason? Perhaps those guys might be known to frequent certain temples for instance but have broken no laws. Something HAS to be put in place to at least justify wanting shotgun(s) Lets not forget they are unlimited too so one bloke could arm a team. If licensed SG's were used in a terrorist incident how long do you think licences would continue to exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 This dates back to I think it was 1968 when shotguns were first licenced. Still have my first one - it's dated 9:26am on 23 August 1958. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 funny old me it had never crossed my mind that a would be terrorist would go off to a jee harr training camp be trained in weapon and explosive handling usually with weapons akin to an ak47 to then return to create mayhem and havoc , but before setting out on his murderous deeds he would first apply for a SGC and sit and wait for the application to be processed and then have a nice cup of tea and a biccy with his FLO KW LOL - funny yes, unlikely too but in all seriousness we would be stupid to ignore the possibility of it occuring - trojan horses and all that. How many times have we moaned about being too soft on ... Oh I give up trying to find PC acceptable words to carry this on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Oh, bad luck! It makes a very handy monopod when free standing shooting. That's an idea; I have no other use for it nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 It is a strange 1, I know it is a right but with a bit of sense common sense applied so u need some sort of excuse is not a bad thing but as many have said the way Firearms laws are intreprted is already resricting things i have been phoned a few times in recent years by various FEO's asking about so and so (as they must of put the shoot down). I have no problem co-operating with them but mibee i should be pointing out to them politely its none of their business if so and so shoots a shotgun on the shoot or if they are safe etc which has been asked a few times. But at the same time i do not want to make someone elses grant/remewal harder because i'm being an **** hole, albeit lawfully correct As for terrorist/criminals using legally held firarms or aquiring SGC. Why would they bother? U can probaly buy an illegal pistol cheaper than it costs to buy a decent legal shotgun anyway. If legislating firarms actually made any difference in theory there should no longer be any handgun/pistol crime, but we all know that is not the case. If u can smuggle drugs/people and various other things in/out of the country i doubt something as small as a gun will really be much problem. The Ira were mentioned as far as i know most of there firepower was smuggled in rather than legally held and stolen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Do you not think a "wrong-un" could bypass all the checks and balances with consumate ease if they wanted to? So Mr wannabe Jihadi has to join a club? No big deal, very easy, he's not going to turn up looking like something from Four Lions is he ? He's going to wear a football shirt and be clean shaven. A nice bloke Where did the Paris killers get their AK47s from? Porous EU borders thats where. Spending all this time trying to impose rule after rule at the front door when there is no back door, just a gaping hole is pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 4 pages of posts and not a sign of any shooting organisation. This where they should be on here asking for the info so that they can go and beat the residue out of the police force in question. until they do it is a waste of your money being a member because they dont do anything. they have no power at all and the police know it and that is why they constantly nibble away around the edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Fantasy? We have fanatical extremists who don't mind being killed in our midst.Very true, so what do you suggest we do? What law is in place to prevent a bunch of guys who decide they would like to excercise their right to carry shotguns anywhere they want - There is absolutely no law in place to prevent this apart from the same laws which apply to us all. What do you want, two tier legislation? One which caters to the likes of those you find acceptable and another for those who have beards and dress funny? There is nothing in law to prevent someone with a S1 shotgun (for which you need good reason) from walking to their nearest school and creating havoc or entering the local Waitrose and doing similar. There is nothing in law from preventing someone planting a fertiliser filled car outside any busy building and there is absolutely nothing in law to prevent the smuggling of fully automatic weapons into the country or a suicide bomber strolling into a local market. What do you suggest we do? and the police are not allowed to say no SGC because they don't even have a hint of a reason? As above. Perhaps those guys might be known to frequent certain temples for instance but have broken no laws. You can't deny the same application of the law to people just because they pray a lot and like mutton. Something HAS to be put in place to at least justify wanting shotgun(s) It already exists. Lets not forget they are unlimited too so one bloke could arm a team. So applying S1 restrictions to shotguns would prevent terrorism? Are you a member of ACPO? If licensed SG's were used in a terrorist incident how long do you think licences would continue to exist?Your guess is a good as mine. So again, what do you suggest we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mick.j Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Scully Your replies make me smile! I just wonder how long i have to be shooting before i have a valid opinion on things. Oh the joys of a forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Scully Your replies make me smile! I just wonder how long i have to be shooting before i have a valid opinion on things. Oh the joys of a forum! So give us the wisdom of your opinion then. What, in your opinion should be done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I am intrigued by the OP. If people are being told this ask them to get in touch with me without delay. And for the record, much though I love this forum, please do not use it as a prime contact source to me or BASC, please contact us directly if there is an issue. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 So we have someone who's asked to join a club for three months to gain some kind of accreditation and from that we are at terrorists. Only on PW and some say the general public are paranoid. As for those asking where are our organisations why are they not only here asking questions well contact them yourselves giving your membership details or maybe you can't as you have kept your money in your pocket instead of using a small amount trying to protect the sport you claim to love.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mick.j Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 So give us the wisdom of your opinion then. What, in your opinion should be done? Joining a club/game shoot is a good start as it shows intent to take up the sport- But you don't like that idea because 'it proves nothing' What about mandatory gun safety courses before you are granted one? or is this another waste of time and proves nothing? Most people who want an SGC do so because there friends also shoot and its a progression to join them - They in my view/opinion (which has no validity) have a reason to want to apply. Its people with no background at all in shooting who 'just want a licence on the spur of the moment' What makes them want one and why. That i fear is the biggest problem to solve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Wow this was a tough read, I think we should be able to claim a reward for every thread that descends into "they're coming for our guns" I have no issue with this, as has been stated several times although it is a right to have SGC it is reasonable to expect someone to actually have an interest in shooting and not just to have a shotgun because they can. If you only want a shotgun for posing power, and this is a slight leap, but are you likely to be on top with security, and not flashing it to all your mates to show how super cool you are? Also terrorists using legal shotguns is fairy land stuff, illegal guns are easy to get and cheaper than legal, if you were planning an atrocity would you really want to ensure you pop up on the police radar by applying for SGC? Of course not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Fantasy? We have fanatical extremists who don't mind being killed in our midst.Very true, so what do you suggest we do? What law is in place to prevent a bunch of guys who decide they would like to excercise their right to carry shotguns anywhere they want - There is absolutely no law in place to prevent this apart from the same laws which apply to us all. What do you want, two tier legislation? One which caters to the likes of those you find acceptable and another for those who have beards and dress funny? There is nothing in law to prevent someone with a S1 shotgun (for which you need good reason) from walking to their nearest school and creating havoc or entering the local Waitrose and doing similar. There is nothing in law from preventing someone planting a fertiliser filled car outside any busy building and there is absolutely nothing in law to prevent the smuggling of fully automatic weapons into the country or a suicide bomber strolling into a local market. What do you suggest we do? and the police are not allowed to say no SGC because they don't even have a hint of a reason? As above. Perhaps those guys might be known to frequent certain temples for instance but have broken no laws. You can't deny the same application of the law to people just because they pray a lot and like mutton. Something HAS to be put in place to at least justify wanting shotgun(s) It already exists. Lets not forget they are unlimited too so one bloke could arm a team. So applying S1 restrictions to shotguns would prevent terrorism? Are you a member of ACPO? If licensed SG's were used in a terrorist incident how long do you think licences would continue to exist?Your guess is a good as mine. So again, what do you suggest we do? LOL, the issue is police introducing queries about the intended use of a shotgun - not laws about atrocities. No I don't propose a two tier system. The system can only possibly have equal rights for all so I feel we will have to bend a bit to allow police to refuse a certificate unless at least some sort of indication is shown that it will be used for sporting or vermin purposes. As it stands at the moment (We 'want' we get right?) What rights of refusal do the police have if a british woman in a burka applied for a shotgun licence? What would you say if said woman then passes it to her husband who goes mental with it? Shouldn't the police have required some justification? Bear with me here - what would be said about that after the incident? Daft? surely, but take it to the extreme because our enemies might just decide to excercise their human rights to abuse our EU determined human rights laws. Unless the police can find a reason to refuse I think they HAVE to grant the licence. So my suggestion is to bend a little and allow police to initiate some sort of query about who qualifies for a ticket if they need to - and apply it to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.