clay shooter Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Do members agree that the application form for the gun license should INCLUDE a section to be signed by the aplicants GP? This would add extra cost to the already overpriced granting of...And WHAT medical conditions would stop a grant...OTHER than ...Being ..er....insane?..Any thoughts?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Categorically not. I think the police should check medical records upon grant/renewal (which they're already supposed to do.) That's me, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud 20 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 The way it works or supposed to work in Ireland is, we , have to give 2 peoples name and numbers they don't have to be licence holders also doctors details also you agree to cops speaking to doctor, now say someone goes to police and says that lad is mad , nuts ect, police ring people who have been nominated to see if there is any personal dispute, then ring doc to see if been treated for something, surppose it works both ways. There is nothing stopping them checking before they grant licence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 The GP signs the applicants form to what effect? The applicant already signs the form giving the police permission to contact their GP, and many police forces are already insisting the applicant pays for this. The same medical conditions that already exist which prevent an applicant from grant would apply. Do you think procedures need changing, and if so, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!they can see your medical records if they want to anyway so it would be pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Its always a bit contentious as to what medical conditions should be considered in theses cases. I knew somebody who lost his license after having an epileptic seizure in his sixties following an operation. He only ever had the one. There is a thread running in general shooting matters about a member who has had his SGC and FAC revoked for telling his GP he drinks a couple of pints a night. Thats worth reading through. It appears the GP went to the police not the other way round The thing that worries me is that people wont go to the doctor if they fear losing their license. How do you know the GP is not a raving anti? Edited February 19, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 There is a thread running in general shooting matters about a member who has had his SGC and FAC revoked for telling his GP he drinks a couple of pints a night. Thats worth reading through. It appears the GP went to the police not the other way round The thing that worries me is that people wont go to the doctor if they fear losing their license. How do you know the GP is not a raving anti? Just to clarify ,I have not had my certs revoked..yet. They are technically suspended pending an inquiry into my 'intemperate behaviour' Also ,the doctor did not contact the police off his own back ,but ,either the police did not contact him until after the certs had been granted,or he was very late sending back his reply. If my doctor or the doc in this case are indeed 'a raving anti' it should make no difference to firearms licencing ,he should only be asked if there is any medical reason why the applicant should not be entrusted with a firearm. The docs opinion on gun ownership is totally irrelevant.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogcal Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 My GP is very anti gun in any shape or form and he's the last person I'd ask to sign my licence application. If the police contact the practice directly I would hope they receive an unbiased report based on my medical history held on file rather than a view that may be based on the opinion of a self confessed anti who just happens to be the GP in the practice that I regularly see. Apart from his stance on guns he's a decent enough chap who is an exceptionally good doctor and entitled to hold some extreme views if he wishes but not to my detriment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 A lot of surgeries don't give you a nominated doctor anymore, just whoever is next in line. What happens there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 The docs opinion on gun ownership is totally irrelevant.. Thats not strictly true, going back in time your doctor was the commonest countersignatory for your SGC or FAC. Remember at that time they were only confirming your identity. Suddenly doctors started refusing to countersign applications and renewals. This led to a lot of problems for a lot of people and remember, that was before they were being asked if you were safe. There has been a background level of concern for a while about doctors being asked to give you an affirmative reference when it might just be easier for them to say no and avoid any chance of comebacks in the future. Many have felt an unfair risk is being placed on the Doctor and the result will be a safety first option being adopted. You appear to be an example of that happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Just to clarify ,I have not had my certs revoked..yet. They are technically suspended pending an inquiry into my 'intemperate behaviour' Also ,the doctor did not contact the police off his own back ,but ,either the police did not contact him until after the certs had been granted,or he was very late sending back his reply. If my doctor or the doc in this case are indeed 'a raving anti' it should make no difference to firearms licencing ,he should only be asked if there is any medical reason why the applicant should not be entrusted with a firearm. The docs opinion on gun ownership is totally irrelevant.. If indeed the GP is forcing his/her own agenda instead of being professional and objective I'd say a strong complaint is in order (practitioner committee/ GMC). rogcal is right - everyone is entitled to a personal opinion but a professional opinion means exactly that - a calm reasoned professional assessment within the boundaries of the question being asked. You have to put a different head on when you act in a professional capacity. I don't have a problem with authorising the police to ask my GP specific questions, but with a strong sense of civil liberty I don't agree with allowing them to roam free. I do however believe that in return for society entrusting us with firearms (our FAC) through police licensing then we must show that we are fit people. My wish is for a reasonably priced licensing system, the cost of which fairly represents the effort behind the license and in return gives a reasonable grant period across the entire country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Taken from the HO guidelines. Medical Information 10.20 The application form for firearm certificates require the applicant to give permission for the police to approach the applicant’s General Practitioner (GP), who should be registered in the UK, in order to obtain factual details of the applicant’s medical history so far as it relates to the safe possession of firearms. There are a small number of applicants who are not registered with a GP in the UK. If an applicant does not have a GP in the UK they do not fulfil the criteria to be issued with a firearm certificate as they cannot complete the application form. 10.21 There is no requirement for a GP to monitor or assess a patient who currently holds a firearm certificate, though there is a duty for a doctor to disclose information where they believe the patient may present a risk of death or serious harm to themselves or another. 10.22 GPs should not be asked to give general access to applicants’ medical records or to offer an opinion on any of the medical information given. In particular, GPs should not be asked to either endorse or oppose applications, though it is open to them to do so. 10.23 Chief officers of police may reach their own conclusions as to the significance of the information supplied, based on their own knowledge and experience, but may wish to seek advice from the force medical officer where available in cases where the medical information supplied is difficult to understand, or where its significance in terms of the possession of firearms is unclear. Any final decision as to the applicant’s fitness, whether on medical or other grounds, should be taken by the properly authorised officer in the usual way. 10.24 Once the applicant’s consent is given, it is open to the police to approach the applicant’s GP at any time during the life of the certificate if there are concerns about the applicant’s continued fitness to possess firearms. 10.25 It is also open to a GP to approach the police at any time in order to pass on information of possible concern about an individual, whether a patient or not, who possesses firearms or is applying to do so. Clearly, the GP would have to be satisfied that their public duty to express their concerns outweighed the normal requirements of patient confidentiality. The point of initial contact in any such cases will probably be either the firearms licensing department, who will know how best to respond to the information provided, or the force medical officer (where available). It may be necessary in some cases where uncertainty remains over the significance of the GP’s concern for arrangements to be made for the firearms licensing manager to speak to another GP or specialist, who may be able to offer advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Although most of us will have read and be aware of the above guidance, it must be remembered that there is now a policy in place as agreed between the BMA, ACPO and the HO for GP's to be advised of all grants and renewals. As far as I know this has now been nationally adopted. This letter from Andy Marsh (ACPO) to CC's may be of interest............http://www.gloslmc.com/downloads/Firearms%20and%20shotguns/Letter%20-%20NFLMS%20GP%20letter%20functionality.pdf Together with these passages from ACPO FLEWG minutes from 2012. 10. GP LETTERS 10.1 A further meeting regarding GP letters was held on 1st March 2012. DCC Marsh was in attendance with representatives from the British Medical Association (BMA) and the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). 10.2 There was an agreement reached over the wording of the letter and a link will be developed to offer advice to GPs. BMA interim guidance has been changed to reflect these developments. 10.3 Once the agreement has been finalised, DCC Marsh will write to all forces to advise them of the changes under proposal. He will also write to representative groups that attended the earlier meeting at BMA House on 8th December 2011 to advise them that refininment of the agreement has taken place. and...................... 4.3 c) GP Letters The wording of the letter is currently under review to address some concerns. As some revocations have been implemented in Hampshire as a result of letters from GPs, DCC Marsh’s view remains that it is a necessary and proportionate disclosure of information and therefore an extrememly valuable tool in protecting the public from forseeable harm. DCC Marsh asked reps to continue to forward him examples of positive feedback as a result of the letters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 no way let them pay,keep adding thing on where will it stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derfley Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Do members agree that the application form for the gun license should INCLUDE a section to be signed by the aplicants GP? This would add extra cost to the already overpriced granting of...And WHAT medical conditions would stop a grant...OTHER than ...Being ..er....insane?..Any thoughts?? You already authorise them to contact your GP when fill in the forms. Any further action or requests to your GP should be done by the issuing force, based on the details you gave them on the forms, no need for anything else. The push by the likes of Durham to provide a Doctors report with a application or renewal, is a move in part to shift the cost of the report from the Police to the applicant. In my case they (Humberside Police) contacted my GP as I have previously suffered (and been treated for depression, this was declared on my application). I will freely admit this made my application a little more difficult than normal, but they contacted my GP who provided them with the details they requested (and gave me a "clean bill of health" from what the officer told during my home visit), and my SGC was eventually granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay shooter Posted February 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well as the saying goes " I only asked" Because I noticed that the application form on the net to download from... south yorks police....Had NOW included that section to be signed by your GP AND GAVE A list of ANY ailments..I think this is because of the spate of shooting incidents in the country as a whole We must be aware of these on TV newspapers etc..And perhaps some "sycos" are getting through Although they are NOT like that when the license is issued..BUT who turn and then kill the locals etc..Personaly Im ok not been to the doc for ages and am as far as I know..Im ok!..But was wondering about other South Yorkshire shots? Some might have some problems??..And would as has already been said..... would the doc give an un biased opinion..or play safe and say NO?.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Firstly, there are no 'sycos' getting through. Secondly your GP isn't qualified to personally state whether an applicant is psychotic or not, and they don't have to 'play safe' as it has already been stressed by the BMA that their GP's cannot be held responsible for any decisions based on an applicants medical record and can only make decisions based on that applicants record at that moment in time, which is why some GP's are still reluctant to sign. It's up to you whether you comply or not, and pay for the report, but it isn't compulsory. But without the backing of their shooting organisations, most applicants are doing so, (and some even with the backing of their organisation) so it looks like in the future there is a very good chance it will become mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Well as the saying goes " I only asked" Because I noticed that the application form on the net to download from... south yorks police....Had NOW included that section to be signed by your GP AND GAVE A list of ANY ailments..I think this is because of the spate of shooting incidents in the country as a whole We must be aware of these on TV newspapers etc..And perhaps some "sycos" are getting through Although they are NOT like that when the license is issued..BUT who turn and then kill the locals etc..Personaly Im ok not been to the doc for ages and am as far as I know..Im ok!..But was wondering about other South Yorkshire shots? Some might have some problems??..And would as has already been said..... would the doc give an un biased opinion..or play safe and say NO?.. Poor choice of words there I'm afraid. If as you state " Personaly I'm ok, not been to the doc for ages and am as far as I know..Im ok!.." What if when your Doctor is approached for his professional opininon he sends back a letter saying he is unable to comment as he hasn't seen you for ages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 110% NO I also remember when the doctor was considered a fit person to countersign an application it was an expensive and degrading process so I hate to think what they would charge now and how they would treat you and a lot now speak and write poor English with it not being their first language. If the police think they have reason for medical information on an application then they should obtain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Does anyone think a GP will have the time or the inclination to read through the guidelines before filling out your form? I think thats being very nieve. Would they even know that there were guidelines? At my surgery now I never see the same doctor twice Edited February 21, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Does anyone think a GP will have the time or the inclination to read through the guidelines before filling out your form? I think thats being very nieve. Would they even know that there were guidelines? At my surgery now I never see the same doctor twice All GP's in Durham areas where sent everything prior to the introduction of the Medical forms so as Durham quote "they should know what they are doing " my doc charges £50, on the syco side of things "you can't regulate NUTTY I'm afraid.The Horden shootings Atherton was purly down to police /authority negligence,had multiple oppertunies to remove ( they did once) guns and never give them back.But the guy would of prob done the same but with a knive or something else. The fact is if the forces are doing their job right,there is no need for add forms,they have the authority to obtain medical information regardless,just another public relations programe to cover up continous mistake after mistake.Sick of hearing the understaffing excuses,if that's the case then they are not fit for purpose to be in charge of licensing as understaffing leads to short cuts,enviably leading to yet another incident. We don't need any changes to the legislation,what we need is the job done correctly and every force following the legislation( not like we hear now,every force doing their own thing).Instead we get a force trying to introduce (force)new forms.Just to cover up a colossal of mistakes.Totaly disgraceful in my opinion. Classic example, I think it was a thread on here regarding renewal time scales,someone quoted that the FEO phones (no visit) and asks "is you cabinet in the same place as it was 5 yrs ago?) "ok I will pop your licence in the post" NOT ACCEPTABLE,if at all true.They are going to take your word for it that the cabinets never been moved of removed for some reason like a damp course or plastering or something. Short cut,totally unacceptable. Next it will be Experian credit checks to see if we have any financial problems that may poss lead to depression and then suicide lol.I say lol but it's a possibility. Edited February 21, 2015 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derfley Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Well as the saying goes " I only asked" Because I noticed that the application form on the net to download from... south yorks police....Had NOW included that section to be signed by your GP AND GAVE A list of ANY ailments..I think this is because of the spate of shooting incidents in the country as a whole We must be aware of these on TV newspapers etc..And perhaps some "sycos" are getting through Although they are NOT like that when the license is issued..BUT who turn and then kill the locals etc..Personaly Im ok not been to the doc for ages and am as far as I know..Im ok!..But was wondering about other South Yorkshire shots? Some might have some problems??..And would as has already been said..... would the doc give an un biased opinion..or play safe and say NO?.. I've just been and looked at the south yorks firearms page and the form on there http://www.southyorkshire.police.uk/sites/default/files/FORM%20201%202014%20%28Final%29%20v3.pdf looks like the standard 201 form to me, anyone else care to give it the once over? Or are you saying that they are sending out an additional form (like Durham) requesting that the applicant get a medical report? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.