ShootingEgg Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I currently have a .22 and .17, and both are set wuth the condition 'use for vermin control. My feo has said that my 17 is fine for fox and i quote ' aslong as its a clean kill'. my question is, would you class fox as vermin? Ive always put rat rabbit squirrel in that category. Not fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yes Definition of Vermin wild animals which are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease, e.g. rodents. "killed as vermin or game, the pumas have gone" How does a fox not fit that discription Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) yes definitely Edited June 17, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 So why does it say on others fac vermin and fox seperately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I currently have a .22 and .17, and both are set wuth the condition 'use for vermin control. My feo has said that my 17 is fine for fox and i quote ' aslong as its a clean kill'. my question is, would you class fox as vermin? Ive always put rat rabbit squirrel in that category. Not fox. There is no way that this request can be guaranteed, stupid comment really. I wonder if the same FEO tells people this when they ask for a centrefire or is it just the .17hmr that he requests this for. Just wondering, why don't you classify fox as vermin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted June 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 There is no way that this request can be guaranteed, stupid comment really. I wonder if the same FEO tells people this when they ask for a centrefire or is it just the .17hmr that he requests this for. Just wondering, why don't you classify fox as vermin? Thats the point i made when they said clean kill. I said i Could apply for a 22.250 and shoot a fox in the rear due to movement etc and it wouldnt be clean.. Also I suppose I have only really seen vermin as crop attackers and a fox as a pest... which I guess you could argue are the same thing. Only reason I ask is that someone i know seemed to think fox wasnt in that clarification either so just thought id put it out there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 A fox is vermin as described by the dictionary, not by a court of law or a firearms team. My last ticket used to say "vermin, including fox". They wouldn't do that if it wasn't ambiguous to begin with.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 A fox is vermin as described by the dictionary, not by a court of law or a firearms team. My last ticket used to say "vermin, including fox". They wouldn't do that if it wasn't ambiguous to begin with.. Indeed Fox is mentioned several times in the HO guidelines, fox and vermin conditions very often are separated so don't go by a suggestion in a dictionary. If you are wanting to shoot more than the occasional fox then get a centre fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) A fox is vermin as described by the dictionary, not by a court of law or a firearms team. My last ticket used to say "vermin, including fox". They wouldn't do that if it wasn't ambiguous to begin with.. It hasn't been described as not being vermin either. A firearms team do not have any authority to decide what they 'think/consider' vermin is or isn't. Foxes, along with stoats rats etc take my birds so I carry out 'vermin' control to try my best to stop them. I have done this for many years as had my father who was also a gamekeeper and his father before him, foxes are vermin. Edited June 17, 2015 by r1steele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I suppose the acid test would be to see how defra categorises fox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 As it is currently undefined in law and there is no case history for successful prosecution for "breach of the condition" IMO you are just as covered shooting foxes as anything else Be aware that the "so long as they are killed cleanly" is not a request from the FEO but a requirement in law of the general license that you are shooting under. failure to do so and successful prosecution could be possible under the Wildlife and Countryside Act You have more chance of prosecution for causing suffering to an animal than you have being done for shooting a fox with a .22lr or .17 Also be aware that you conditions are stated as more to indicate your "good reason" rather than they are interpreted as what you can and can't shoot after granting authority I will happily smoke Hoodie Crows and foxes with my .270 and 300WM knowing that I am well within the law despite both rifles formerly (FAC print rules changed up here recently) being conditioned as 1D - large deer and feral/wild pigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) I currently have a .22 and .17, and both are set wuth the condition 'use for vermin control. My feo has said that my 17 is fine for fox and i quote ' aslong as its a clean kill'. my question is, would you class fox as vermin? Ive always put rat rabbit squirrel in that category. Not fox. :yes: The Home Office does............ 2015 Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Shooting Small Quarry Species, including Game and Pest Species (Vermin) 13.19 The term "game" covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and hares). The term "vermin" is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow................................... Edited June 18, 2015 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 That's not really clear though is it...... not defined in law, but may Imho holds no weight whatsoever Like I said, what's does defra think, or English nature, if it ever came to the crunch this is where advice would be sought from rather than poorly written 'guidance' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadWasp Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 The most helpful phrase on a certificate is 'any other legal quarry'. If you can work that into your next variation it will remove uncertainties. Additionally there is no restriction on rifle calibre for fox despite what some forces try to apply - however, as others have mentioned above, you have a both a moral duty and a legal obligation to prevent suffering. Every shot is a dynamic risk assessment and that includes aspects of humanity. My take on pest control is that 'vermin' is a classification not an attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) That's not really clear though is it...... not defined in law, but may Imho holds no weight whatsoever Like I said, what's does defra think, or English nature, if it ever came to the crunch this is where advice would be sought from rather than poorly written 'guidance' It is an Opinion expressed by the Home Office, and issued to all police regions (and the public) as a guide to interpretation, it will carry MUCH more weight than anything from DEFRA or English Nature. The Home Office is the Police HEAD OFFICE. It would be ridiculous for anyone to bring any prosecution for fox/vermin when the Home Office have made it clear they consider fox vermin. It is the closest you will get to Law at the moment. I would like to see any Police region argue with their own Head Office! Edited June 18, 2015 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 It is an Opinion expressed by the Home Office, and issued to all police regions (and the public) as a guide to interpretation, it will carry MUCH more weight than anything from DEFRA or English Nature. The Home Office is the Police HEAD OFFICE. It would be ridiculous for anyone to bring any prosecution for fox/vermin when the Home Office have made it clear they consider fox vermin. It is the closest you will get to Law at the moment. I would like to see any Police region argue with their own Head Office! Take your point regarding the 1st three bullet points, but in effect aren't many, if not all, police regions arguing with their own head office when they fail to adhere to that authority's guidlines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Well I've not got Fox on my FAC but will continue to shoot them under the vermin condition. Fox meets the dictionary and Home Office definition so I'm happy to carry on as I always have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 It is an Opinion expressed by the Home Office, and issued to all police regions (and the public) as a guide to interpretation, it will carry MUCH more weight than anything from DEFRA or English Nature. The Home Office is the Police HEAD OFFICE. It would be ridiculous for anyone to bring any prosecution for fox/vermin when the Home Office have made it clear they consider fox vermin. It is the closest you will get to Law at the moment. I would like to see any Police region argue with their own Head Office! And that same HO guidance says what about .22rf and fox? ..... Occasional use or similar iirc, so why at that point differentiate between fox and vermin? The police do not make the laws, HO has issued conflicting guidelines, so if ever there was to be a case brought to court then who would the court accept to give a credible opinion as to fox bring vermin or not? As an agricultural pest I think defra would be the answer. AOLQ condition and using the correct tool for the job is the answer in real terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 And that same HO guidance says what about .22rf and fox? ..... Occasional use or similar iirc, so why at that point differentiate between fox and vermin? The police do not make the laws, HO has issued conflicting guidelines, so if ever there was to be a case brought to court then who would the court accept to give a credible opinion as to fox bring vermin or not? As an agricultural pest I think defra would be the answer. AOLQ condition and using the correct tool for the job is the answer in real terms. I would have thought someone like myself (third generation gamekeeper) should be accepted to give a credible opinion as to whether fox is vermin or not. Defra don't have any say whether it is legally classed as vermin or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpy22 Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 my fac for rimfies and centrefires say vermin and aolq / deer and aolq. which I would say covers fox under aolq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Take your point regarding the 1st three bullet points, but in effect aren't many, if not all, police regions arguing with their own head office when they fail to adhere to that authority's guidlines? Not as such, as they have not been put to the test, they simply do what they want. When questioned by either an FAC holder or BASC (other shooting organisations are available) it has been noted they will commonly relent. They get away with it too often because people are commonly reluctant to question them. Edited June 19, 2015 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Not as such, as they have not been put to the test, they simply do what they want. When questioned by either an FAC holder or BASC (other shooting organisations are available) it has been noted they will commonly relent. They get away with it too often because people are commonly reluctant to question them. Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) And that same HO guidance says what about .22rf and fox? ..... Occasional use or similar iirc, so why at that point differentiate between fox and vermin? The police do not make the laws, HO has issued conflicting guidelines, so if ever there was to be a case brought to court then who would the court accept to give a credible opinion as to fox bring vermin or not? As an agricultural pest I think defra would be the answer. AOLQ condition and using the correct tool for the job is the answer in real terms. It is more than clear that we have a different view on this. They have NOT differentiated between fox/vermin on .22lr, they have said you can use it. The table on page 122 of the 2015 guide states for fox.... "Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR – also .22 RF in certain circumstance" Which part of saying also .22RF in certain circumstances differentiates fox from vermin? The Home Office (via the police) is responsible for Firearms in this country not DEFRA, or any other Government Department, the Home Office does not need authority from any other Government Dept (or any other body) to decide what they consider the definition of vermin is, they have made that decision, they have told the whole country they consider fox to be vermin, in the latest Firearms Guide. As regards your comment.................. "so if ever there was to be a case brought to court then who would the court accept to give a credible opinion as to fox bring vermin or not? As an agricultural pest I think defra would be the answer". You will never secure a conviction in a British court against shooting fox as vermin when all the accused has to do is wave the guide under the judges nose, the accused has followed the guidelines as laid down by the Home Office. If someone wants to question those guidelines that is a separate matter altogether and a matter for another court. You cannot take someone to court for following the guidelines, and then attempt to change the guidelines in front of them and then convict them! As regards your comment.................. "AOLQ condition and using the correct tool for the job is the answer in real terms." I'd say that is pretty close, which is why I shoot more foxes with my rimfire collection than I do with my centrefire/shotgun collection. Why is it people cannot accept not every fox is shot in the next county. Why is it there is this common/false view that only a centrefire can be called a fox rifle? I shoot loads in domestic, pocket handkerchief, back gardens where rimfires are almost exclusively the CORRECT/SAFEST/BEST tools for the job. Edited June 19, 2015 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 If you are concerned then ask your FEO to put "fox" on it! I did just to be awkward everything is AOLQ up here now, no conditions at all on any rifles or mods very sensible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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