THE EU - IN OR OUT AND SHOOTING MATTERS

[Scully]

Personal financial benefit. Yes that would be from trying to avoid the economic down turn that is likely to follow a brexit vote.

How brexitiers believe that the country can be better off negotiating with the EU from outside rather than in is beyond me. They must be either daft or getting have enough cash not to worry about the cost.

 

I certainly don't have enough cash but to me it's not about the money. Admittedly I'm not the most intelligent person around, but I'm not exactly daft either.

[Walker570]

I hear today that 'someone' has started a petition to get the House of Parliament to stop the referendum taking place on Thursday next. Now I smell a very large stinky rat here. I would not put it past an operator working FOR the EU to have started this because it looks a bit over a 50/50 chance the leave campaign will win. There is already talk in the USA that this is a 'False Flag' operation. If 100, 000 signatures are made, then the MP's have to at least debate it. A large majority of MPs are for staying in because their livelyhoods depend on it ... get kicked out here and slide into a nice little better paid job in Brussels so if it went to the House it would be a fair bet it would be on the Remain side and the UK voters, tax payers etc would have lost their right of a say in the matter. The EU has history of dubious workings if they don't get a vote in their favour ...eg Ireland, Holland had to have a second vote and were then lied to.

I can smell it from here !!!

 

I would want to know what would happen to the tens of thousands postal votes already sent in. Anyway there are two leave votes from this house. It's a no brainer!!

[oowee]

I dont really think many of us have cash to burn or daft to be honest.

 

Simply put how do we think quitting and renegotiating all what we have from the outside can be stronger for the economy.

Why would anyone think that the EU will allow trade on more favourable terms to a non member than a member country?? Its madness.

If we don't like something about it change it. Don't say its not democratic it clearly is, we just have to get our (euro sceptic) MEP's to work for the benefit of the UK not the dismantling of Europe.

[rjimmer]

Today, I met a Slovak couple that used to lodge with me when they came to England 8 years ago and asked them what people in Slovakia thought of the EU. 'Most people would probably vote OUT', was the answer.

[12gauge82]

I dont really think many of us have cash to burn or daft to be honest.

 

Simply put how do we think quitting and renegotiating all what we have from the outside can be stronger for the economy.

Why would anyone think that the EU will allow trade on more favourable terms to a non member than a member country?? Its madness.

If we don't like something about it change it. Don't say its not democratic it clearly is, we just have to get our (euro sceptic) MEP's to work for the benefit of the UK not the dismantling of Europe.

The eu levelling large import taxes against us would be like tesco taxing us to shop in their stores, we'd just use asda, Morrison's or sainsburys instead, the UK is basically a eu customer who pays for the privilege, borrowing the words of Cameron the eu levelling trade taxes against us would be an act of extraordinary self harm for the eu, they need us far more than we need them. Even in a worst case scenario of having to pay WTO trade rates the saving of not paying to be a member of the eu would more than cover the costs. For me all that is irrelevant anyway, I want our country's democracy back.

[Walker570]

answer 2 any money the EU HANDED BACK to us for conservation was ours in the first place. If I asked you for £20 and then gave you £10 in returnwould you think that a good deal? Well I would like to know where the other £10 was going to. Maybe to pay for the two private jets for the two

EU Presidents to fly to Eastern Europe because they didn't want to share the same plane. When you actually delve into the workings of the EU it

is almost like something Gilbert & Sullivan wrote but not quite as funny. They have managed to destroy the economies of Greece, Italy, Spain,

Portugal and everyone I spoke to in Slovenia on my last visit agreed it was a gross mistake for their government to have taken up the Euro and

they were hanging on by their fingernails. If all goes well on Thursday next, I think you will see the European Communist State implode. A majority in Denmark want out, as do Finland and Sweden is tottering on the edge. Poor old Greece is so in hock to the IMF and the European Central Bank that it is very difficult to predict which way they will go. They should have got out when they had a chance.

[Scully]

I dont really think many of us have cash to burn or daft to be honest.

 

Simply put how do we think quitting and renegotiating all what we have from the outside can be stronger for the economy.

Why would anyone think that the EU will allow trade on more favourable terms to a non member than a member country?? Its madness.

If we don't like something about it change it. Don't say its not democratic it clearly is, we just have to get our (euro sceptic) MEP's to work for the benefit of the UK not the dismantling of Europe.

 

There's so much at fault with that post I really don't know where to begin, so I wont.

Roll on Thursday; one way or another it will be sorted and then we can all get back on with our lives. I'm voting out for reasons other than money, but wont worry too much if we vote to remain. I'm totally convinced the EU is mortally flawed and wounded, and on its knees, and that within a few years it will crumble and disintegrate. Stay or leave, we cannot continue as we are; I only hope there isn't civil unrest as a result.

Either way, being totally disgusted with the level of lies and deceit from both sides I am going to have to give the matter of voting ever again, some serious thought.

[12gauge82]

 

There's so much at fault with that post I really don't know where to begin, so I wont.

Roll on Thursday; one way or another it will be sorted and then we can all get back on with our lives. I'm voting out for reasons other than money, but wont worry too much if we vote to remain. I'm totally convinced the EU is mortally flawed and wounded, and on its knees, and that within a few years it will crumble and disintegrate. Stay or leave, we cannot continue as we are; I only hope there isn't civil unrest as a result.

Either way, being totally disgusted with the level of lies and deceit from both sides I am going to have to give the matter of voting ever again, some serious thought.

Very well put as always scully

[Scully]

Thanks; I've enjoyed reading your posts too.

[hawkfanz]

we cant get nothing from eu when we can be out voted by the other 27 members,,even a veto on anything is worthless under them circumstances,they all want us to stay in because they know that others joining have no money to put in the pot and will be sadly lacking without our donation to prop up the eastern block countrys,,,, we put it in and they take it out,

[anser2]

Watch this and if you are still minded to "remain" you must be either daft or getting some sort of personal financial benefit from the EU!?

I would never pay any attention to any journalist or Politicians on ether the leave or remain side and this guy in the video is no better being in the pay of a newspaper that is committed to leaving the EU. Like so many of the newspapers and Politicians much of what he is spouting is sheer rubbish, a mix of half truths and lies to suit his view point. For instance he states how many laws the UK has voted against and lost, but he does not say how many laws we have voted on and won.

I started this debate as undecided which way to vote , but with slight leanings to leave, but after having spent about 20 evenings researching the in and outs of this question and its so clear that we have to remain in the EU if this country wants to prosper. Ignore what the leave and remain Politicians say , spend a few evenings with an open mind and read papers from the people who deal with the EU in trade and other fields then make your mind up.

 

This guy in the video has to be bias and cannot be taken at face value as he is paid by a magazine that has long campaigned to leave the EU.

Edited June 19, 2016 by anser2

[Danger-Mouse]

 

 

Simply put how do we think quitting and renegotiating all what we have from the outside can be stronger for the economy.

Why would anyone think that the EU will allow trade on more favourable terms to a non member than a member country?? Its madness.

If we don't like something about it change it. Don't say its not democratic it clearly is, we just have to get our (euro sceptic) MEP's to work for the benefit of the UK not the dismantling of Europe.

 

What like our trade deals with such economic giants as Andorra, The Faroe Isles, Guernsey, Jersey, Monte ***** and San Marino? Have you actually looked at the countries with which the EU has negotiated trade deals? Yes I`ve cherry picked a little but really the majority are not hugely impressive and I`m pretty sure a heavily consumer based society like ours won`t have too much problem establishing a trade deal of similar, possibly better, conditions with most of them.

 

We don`t want more favourable terms. We hope for similar terms. Admittedly that is somewhat up to the EU members but with our trade deficit it makes little sense for them to screw us over.

 

How? Please explain to me how our MEPs can overturn an existing EU law. Find me a link that explains the process because I can`t find one.

 

I did find this though

 

3.3. The legal system of the European Union

 

. . . A special law, based on the treaties, based on the treaties, which was formerly called acquis communautaire and now ''acquis of the EU'', is thus built to bring into being common policies, a law that is superimposed and takes precedence over national law, even the constitutional law, of the Member States, whether national legislation predates or postdates European legislation. In fact, according to the Court of Justice, the Member States have definitively transferred sovereign rights to the Community (and now the Union) they created, and they cannot subsequently go back on that transfer through unilateral measures [see Case 6/64], unless they decide to break away from the EU. If they do not opt for such a radical measure, they cannot contravene European legislation, to the making of which they have contributed, by invoking their national, even their constitutional law.

[oowee]

 

What like our trade deals with such economic giants as Andorra, The Faroe Isles, Guernsey, Jersey, Monte ***** and San Marino? Have you actually looked at the countries with which the EU has negotiated trade deals? Yes I`ve cherry picked a little but really the majority are not hugely impressive and I`m pretty sure a heavily consumer based society like ours won`t have too much problem establishing a trade deal of similar, possibly better, conditions with most of them. CETA Canada, The 16th round of negotiations with Japan took place this year. All show how long and hard they are to negotiate. Imagine doing that on our own.

 

We don`t want more favourable terms. We hope for similar terms. Admittedly that is somewhat up to the EU members but with our trade deficit it makes little sense for them to screw us over. Why would it be any different, regulation, cost, free movement, contribution to EU funds? We would not be in the club so the cost would be more and we would have no say in the setting of regulation.

How? Please explain to me how our MEPs can overturn an existing EU law. Find me a link that explains the process because I can`t find one. The rules, regulations and laws are agreed by and made by agreement between the member countries.The commission drafts it the Council (28 member countries agree it) and the parliament vote on it (MEP's) http://europa.eu/eu-law/index_en.htm is the link that explains the process. Undoing a law is the same as in the UK difficult but not impossible. Its true `to say that the our role is proportionate to our economy (MEP's) and that member states band together to push for what they want but thats democracy in action.

 

I did find this though

 

3.3. The legal system of the European Union

 

. . . A special law, based on the treaties, based on the treaties, which was formerly called acquis communautaire and now ''acquis of the EU'', is thus built to bring into being common policies, a law that is superimposed and takes precedence over national law, even the constitutional law, of the Member States, whether national legislation predates or postdates European legislation. In fact, according to the Court of Justice, the Member States have definitively transferred sovereign rights to the Community (and now the Union) they created, and they cannot subsequently go back on that transfer through unilateral measures [see Case 6/64], unless they decide to break away from the EU. If they do not opt for such a radical measure, they cannot contravene European legislation, to the making of which they have contributed, by invoking their national, even their constitutional law. ? We cannot as individuals overturn rules in the UK (other than through an act of parliament through a process to which we have agreed in the same way we cannot change law in the EU. A change to what we has been agreed would require member states to vote on a change. Being outside of the club we would still be bound by these laws and any future ones that we had not been involved in setting in order to trade. If we set more favorable business rules or laws then we would pay tariff penalties for trade outside of the EU.

 

[Savhmr]

Here's an excellent video with Daniel Hannan MEP making one of the best cases to leave I've so far listened to in this campaign:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcvhGmdskW4

 

Eddie's a nice guy but he's failed totally with his emotive speech lacking any sort of substance.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Savhmr

[panoma1]

To all you "remain" supporters posting on this forum, can I respectfully enquire, do either you, your business or the organisation that employs you receive either directly or indirectly any EU subsidy or grant money?

 

I am not asking anything I would not answer myself!.....the answer is......as far as I'm aware no and I do not!

[Rewulf]

Can I also ask a question,because I am struggling to find an answer.

Does anyone know how much the EU costs in admin,maintainance,rents and wages?

I dont mean what WE pay,or what all the other countries combined pay,because some of it comes back,or is spent on 'projects'

But what does it cost to 'run ' the EU ?

[Danger-Mouse]

Can I also ask a question,because I am struggling to find an answer.

Does anyone know how much the EU costs in admin,maintainance,rents and wages?

I dont mean what WE pay,or what all the other countries combined pay,because some of it comes back,or is spent on 'projects'

But what does it cost to 'run ' the EU ?

 

According to this site http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm the total EU budget for 2014 was 142.6 billion. Administration costs are approximately 6% of that total, so around 8.5 billion.

[Rewulf]

 

According to this site http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm the total EU budget for 2014 was 142.6 billion. Administration costs are approximately 6% of that total, so around 8.5 billion.

 

Thanks,that was the figure I got ,in euros ,around £6.5 bn.

Problem Ive got is this ,I was under the impression that some 30,000 EU employees (and these are rough assessments) were on about £200,000 per annum ,so £ 6bn

Trouble is ,thats not all of them ,I heard if you take into account every janitor,researcher ect,its more like 80,000 employees.

Also that does not account for buildings and the costs of running them ,travel between the two parliaments, IT,expense accounts,private jets,cars and 'art'

Because the EU likes a bit of art.

The numbers dont add up.

If Ive got something wrong,please correct me,because Im going to do a big Facebook thing about it.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Rewulf

[wymberley]

To all you "remain" supporters posting on this forum, can I respectfully enquire, do either of you, your business or the organisation that employs you receive either directly or indirectly any EU subsidy or grant money?

 

I am not asking anything I would not answer myself!.....the answer is......as far as I'm aware no and I do not!

Sorted.

 

Sorry, Panoma,

 

I'll get me coat.

[Rewulf]

h

 

Sorted.

 

Sorry, Panoma,

 

I'll get me coat.

 

Haha ,probably not a million miles away from the truth!

[Danger-Mouse]

 

Thanks,that was the figure I got ,in euros ,around £6.5 bn.

Problem Ive got is this ,I was under the impression that some 30,000 EU employees (and these are rough assessments) were on about £200,000 per annum ,so £ 6bn

Trouble is ,thats not all of them ,I heard if you take into account every janitor,researcher ect,its more like 80,000 employees.

Also that does not account for buildings and the costs of running them ,travel between the two parliaments, IT,expense accounts,private jets,cars and 'art'

Because the EU likes a bit of art.

The numbers dont add up.

If Ive got something wrong,please correct me,because Im going to do a big Facebook thing about it.

A few links here that are worth looking at.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-dream-job-with-a-cash-guarantee-for-former-european-commissioners-the-money-keeps-on-coming-a-719450.html

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

 

http://community.openspending.org/resources/eu/transparency/

 

http://community.openspending.org/resources/eu/

 

There are about 33,000 civil servants. According to Brexit the Movie around 10,000 of them are paid more than our PM.

 

What I can`t find out is whether when the EU gives money to a particular department or fund if part of that payment also goes to administration in that area. The problem as always is a lack of transparency and huge levels of bureaucracy that make finding out a simple answer almost impossible.

[Rewulf]

Thanks, Ill have a read through those,I might even get some work done too !

[Rewulf]

From 2007 ,but makes interesting reading.

 

http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/how-many-people-work-for-eu.html

[Danger-Mouse]

 

 

What like our trade deals with such economic giants as Andorra, The Faroe Isles, Guernsey, Jersey, Monte ***** and San Marino? Have you actually looked at the countries with which the EU has negotiated trade deals? Yes I`ve cherry picked a little but really the majority are not hugely impressive and I`m pretty sure a heavily consumer based society like ours won`t have too much problem establishing a trade deal of similar, possibly better, conditions with most of them. CETA Canada, The 16th round of negotiations with Japan took place this year. All show how long and hard they are to negotiate. Imagine doing that on our own.

 

We don`t want more favourable terms. We hope for similar terms. Admittedly that is somewhat up to the EU members but with our trade deficit it makes little sense for them to screw us over. Why would it be any different, regulation, cost, free movement, contribution to EU funds? We would not be in the club so the cost would be more and we would have no say in the setting of regulation.

How? Please explain to me how our MEPs can overturn an existing EU law. Find me a link that explains the process because I can`t find one. The rules, regulations and laws are agreed by and made by agreement between the member countries.The commission drafts it the Council (28 member countries agree it) and the parliament vote on it (MEP's) http://europa.eu/eu-law/index_en.htm is the link that explains the process. Undoing a law is the same as in the UK difficult but not impossible. Its true `to say that the our role is proportionate to our economy (MEP's) and that member states band together to push for what they want but thats democracy in action.

 

I did find this though

 

3.3. The legal system of the European Union

 

. . . A special law, based on the treaties, based on the treaties, which was formerly called acquis communautaire and now ''acquis of the EU'', is thus built to bring into being common policies, a law that is superimposed and takes precedence over national law, even the constitutional law, of the Member States, whether national legislation predates or postdates European legislation. In fact, according to the Court of Justice, the Member States have definitively transferred sovereign rights to the Community (and now the Union) they created, and they cannot subsequently go back on that transfer through unilateral measures [see Case 6/64], unless they decide to break away from the EU. If they do not opt for such a radical measure, they cannot contravene European legislation, to the making of which they have contributed, by invoking their national, even their constitutional law. ? We cannot as individuals overturn rules in the UK (other than through an act of parliament through a process to which we have agreed in the same way we cannot change law in the EU. A change to what we has been agreed would require member states to vote on a change. Being outside of the club we would still be bound by these laws and any future ones that we had not been involved in setting in order to trade. If we set more favorable business rules or laws then we would pay tariff penalties for trade outside of the EU.

 

 

The Commission differs from the other institutions in that it alone has legislative initiative in the EU. Only the Commission can make formal proposals for legislation: they cannot originate in the legislative branches. Under the Treaty of Lisbon, no legislative act is allowed in the field of the Common Foreign and Security Policy. In the other fields the Council and Parliament are able to request legislation; in most cases the Commission initiates the basis of these proposals. This monopoly is designed to ensure coordinated and coherent drafting of EU law.[47][48] This monopoly has been challenged by some who claim the Parliament should also have the right, with most national parliaments holding the right in some respects.[49] However, the Council and Parliament may request the Commission to draft legislation, though the Commission does have the power to refuse to do so[50] as it did in 2008 over transnational collective conventions.[51] Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU citizens are also able to request the Commission to legislate in an area via a petition carrying one million signatures, but this is not binding

 

So, if an MEP wants to repeal or change a law they can request it, but equally the commission can simply refuse. And that`s irrespective of whether it`s one MEP or every single one of them.

[panoma1]

Sorted.

 

Sorry, Panoma,

 

I'll get me coat.

Tut! tut!........ I should think so too! Lol!