Cartridge Velocity Test - Mathematics advice required

[johnnytheboy]

The cartridge velocity test that I carried out is slowing down, based on the fact that I cannot find many more 12g cartridges to test. So I wanted to see if I could improve the overall accuracy of the test by calculating the variance between test results and trying to establish a bench mark they should all meet. Then retesting cartridges that don't meet this benchmark.

 

The question is whats everyone's thoughts on this? The data is for everyone to use and get the benefit from it might be better to see if I can suit the needs of the group if I can!

 

I want to test sub 12g calibers but can't do that until I get rid of the huge amount of 12g carts I already have

[Guest cookoff013]

forget it, batch to batch variation will kill the test or what it is to achieve....

[evo]

The cartridge velocity test that I carried out is slowing down, based on the fact that I cannot find many more 12g cartridges to test. So I wanted to see if I could improve the overall accuracy of the test by calculating the variance between test results and trying to establish a bench mark they should all meet. Then retesting cartridges that don't meet this benchmark.

 

The question is whats everyone's thoughts on this? The data is for everyone to use and get the benefit from it might be better to see if I can suit the needs of the group if I can!

 

I want to test sub 12g calibers but can't do that until I get rid of the huge amount of 12g carts I already have

not a problem buddy , plenty of lads on here will take them off ya hands,

 

as for the test,,,,,well I really cant see the point in it at all,,

 

oh I,ll have some free carts off ya also,

 

cheers Evo

[Continental Shooter]

forget it, batch to batch variation will kill the test or what it is to achieve....

 

+1

 

however, if you looking to have a set up that aims to find when the batches changes (therefore, your load changes) and how they change, that's different.

 

Setting up a crony in a proper manner require lots of space and effort which, if you live close enough to Profing House, C&G or Proper Cartridges, makes it a waste of time and money.

 

On the contrary, if you have no access to any of the proofing barrels in UK, then i can help you set one up to be consistent and to reduce the variables ... as above, though, it requires space and time.

 

Cheers,

[wymberley]

Although it must be said that this is a Sterling piece of work by the OP and provides some insight into possible discrepancies between the makers' figures and reality, at the end of the day is it critical?

 

If you launch a No 6 at 1500 ft/sec and another at 1350, the latter will arrive at 40 yards with just 21.2 less ft/sec, less just 0.1 ft/lbs and a tad over some 0.006 seconds later. Are any of us going to notice this in the field?

[robbiep]

I think that yes, it is important. All we get are what the manufacturers tell us, they never give us the data from their proof testing.

 

If there is a large amount of variance between shells from the same box, or a large difference between what a 'high-speed' or 'performance' shell is supposed to return and what it actually returns, then that is of considerable importance. It shows a lack of quality control (for the former) and that the marketing is a load of bunkum (for the latter).

[Guest cookoff013]

I think that yes, it is important. All we get are what the manufacturers tell us, they never give us the data from their proof testing.

 

If there is a large amount of variance between shells from the same box, or a large difference between what a 'high-speed' or 'performance' shell is supposed to return and what it actually returns, then that is of considerable importance. It shows a lack of quality control (for the former) and that the marketing is a load of bunkum (for the latter).

 

i`m sorry, but i think you are wrong. here is why....

 

a 12 gauge test barrel, has tight specification, and is on the tighter end of this. an everyday sporter chamber is not, it conforms to the general 12 gauge spec. the barrel can be quite different in length and diameter... test barrels are also 28". the speed is measured at 2.5M and there is a difference in speed, due to most or all these factors.

 

manufacturers do not need to tell us anything, because users obsess on the littlest insignificant things.

[wymberley]

I think that yes, it is important. All we get are what the manufacturers tell us, they never give us the data from their proof testing.

 

If there is a large amount of variance between shells from the same box, or a large difference between what a 'high-speed' or 'performance' shell is supposed to return and what it actually returns, then that is of considerable importance. It shows a lack of quality control (for the former) and that the marketing is a load of bunkum (for the latter).

I don't know, as an example, the origin of the extensive details given on the website for Hull Cartridges' products. Do they simply make them up?

 

It's worth noting that the difference in longevity between a Ford and a Bentley is largely down to manufacturing tolerances and materials. Image what the effect would be on your pocket if the cartridge makers all decided to produce 'bentleys'.

[robbiep]

Ahh - but (to take the analogy further) you'd have the choice as to whether you bought a Bentley or a Ford. As it is now, you might be paying Bentley prices, but getting a Ford with a posh badge fixed to it.

 

How often have we seen the new 'wonder' cartridge, which is probably the same as the old cartridge, but with a different colour case, a different name, and a flashier box. Eley doing a 'girly' clay cartridge and charging extra for it, for example (£15 to £20 per thousand more expensive for the 'Amber' than the 'First Select lite' in identical loads)

Gamebore doing a whole load of virtually identical cartridges : you can get a Black Gold Game, Super Game hi Bird, Clear Pigeon all in 70mm fibre 30g 6 shot, but the difference on Justcartridges is £90 per thousand from the cheapest to the most expensive. What if they're all the same cartridge, but packaged and marketed differently ?

 

Eley Fourlongs : without research done on here by johnnytheboy, we'd have no idea that they were doing a positively pedestrian 700fps or so. No wonder they're been found to be so quiet through a hushpower.

 

Whilst none of us can (or are trying to) replicate the proof house, we can see whether different cartridges actually stand up to their competitors or not. If manufacturer X's cartridges are close to the quoted speeds, but manufacturer Y is consistently 20% slow, it tells people a lot.

[wymberley]

No one knows more about making cartridges than the cartridge makers but they do not always have the opportunity to fully use their expertise. The reason being that we, the shooters, and their accountants decide on what we're going to buy. I just wish that they'd listen to me and make some 32g 6&1/2 or 7 shot fibre wadded offerings in 70mm for we self loading users.

Edited July 19, 2016 by wymberley

[rbrowning2]

I think the op has done an excellent job in collecting the velocity for so many cartridges.

 

If nothing else it confirms they are not all created equal but all will comply with cip rules we hope.

 

As for trying batch to batch testing I would forget the idea at the DIY level, just the ambient temperature will change the results let alone the tricks the maker may do like swapping type of powder or amount of powder.

 

But as has been said does it matter a few or lots of feet per second at the muzzle are not that important what matters is the velocity and energy down range at the target.

 

As for price difference that is just good marketing or selling at a price the the ends use will except other industries also do likewise

Just look what a logo/brand name does for product pricing in the cloths industry for example.

 

Rb

[TONY R]

I think the test needs to keep running different batches years of ammo, cartridge makers do change components and propelents at the drop of a hat, powders are not always the same in the same brand model of cartridge, they use what they can get and make adjustments as and when needs must, the jump from A 381 A380 A 356 to Canister A steel in kents is an example of this.

Gamebore super steels in their various types can have different powders in them, based on age and type, nothing is set in stone where cartridge companies are concerned.

Only the die hard perfectionists bother to investigate or try to test ammo for speeds and patterns, the vast majority of shooters of all kinds just shoot whats sold to them, and never look to improve on whats available, if its working for them at what they expect who is to fault them for this aproach i supose.

Using the afore mentioned ford vs Bentley adage, The perfectionist wants his ford to have Bentley HP and will strive for this to get such performance, this is not for everyone, but for some iyts just a way of life.

Not all shooters want the same things, cartridge makers churn out cartridges like ford churnede out mk 1 escort 1300Ls

For most this was all they needed, but some wanted a RS car with A BDG engine in it, this is where knowing what the different batches of ammo are doing is handy at trying to get what i tend to cal the EDGE.

[Continental Shooter]

For me, as a man of science, it's always been the pleasure of discovery that moved me;

 

these tests, as mentioned, are of little value on factory cartridges where certainty of components doesn't exist.

 

it is, however, invaluable for the home reloader who has the will to learn and discover rather than just sit on what's been told without the know-how of what's he doing.

 

this is especially useful when you buy powder in non official canisters, or you are given some by a friend, or indeed when you buy in bulk (20-50 kg drums) where the batch is unknown as well as the actual burn rate. That goes for the primers as well, as they're know to change drastically from batch to batch or, indeed, within the same batch. but it's not limited to that: shell colour is known to stiffen the plastic and return up to 80 bar more depending on colours

 

so... the factors to consider are many however, given the certainty on the majority of them, testing on a chrony will help you to gauge what you been sold and how it affects your known (proofed) recipes.

 

to reduce the variables, testing on a chrony needs done in a certain environment, under certain conditions; therefore, you need to have a proper set up to make it worth your while and have the most creditable results

 

Failing that, you might have a picture of what you have but will never been a close picture: cartridges test is done at a set temperature and humidity for instance, so, testing in a scorching hot day or in a dull mucky day can give dramatically different results; same goes for light: testing under the sun will give a false reading as the shadow caste by the column will affect the readings; likewise in a poor light you might not get sufficent readings to have a certainty of your results.

without offence for the time and effort put into this, if you don't do it properly you might as well not doing it at all...

[motty]

I believe there is not that much to gain from such tests. Improving shooting technique will kill more than extra cartridge testing will.

[ElvisThePelvis]

I find it interesting, but like many other when I miss it's probably not the cartridge..

 

Interesting to see how misleading manufacturers data can be...

[TONY R]

I believe there is not that much to gain from such tests. Improving shooting technique will kill more than extra cartridge testing will.

Yeah! But when you are at the top of the game, looking at ammo and getting that up there with you gives you the edge. An Edge is nice to have and its free regardless of shot type or components.

You owe it to the quary you hunt to be as good as you can possibly be, and even those who buy factory ammo can use velocity to their advantage with research patterening and choke interchanging, to get things as good as they can be, speed is not needed to kill but its of positive use if you harness it properly at any range.

[rovercoupe]

I think the only way to go is to invent a rig and get a force meter and measure recoil and then we can put to bed the this cartridge is more punchy than this one!

[Guest cookoff013]

I think the only way to go is to invent a rig and get a force meter and measure recoil and then we can put to bed the this cartridge is more punchy than this one!

I this has already bean done. It's a cip rig that measures recoil in n/s .

[figgy]

I think the tests Johnnyoftheboy is doing is great for shooters to see just what the cartridges are doing measured in a normal everyday shotgun, non of us shoot a test barrel so I find these tests more relavent. It's nice to see what are perceived as a cheap slow cartridge up there with some fast expensive ones and then the reality of some advertised top end fast competition crushing carts being slow and steady. Puts advertising hype into the bin.

[Chris Bb]

Several local clay grounds are experiencing problems due to local residents complaining about noise, one has limited cartridges to one particular brand (Comp-X) and another has banned two or three types which are thought to be noisier than the others.

 

Therefore, a test I'd like to see and which could possible help all clay shooters is one to determine how much noise different cartridges actually make. Perhaps combined with barrel lengths/chokes and at different distances from the gun?

[subsonicnat]

I Just Pull the Trigger.??.

[wymberley]

Several local clay grounds are experiencing problems due to local residents complaining about noise, one has limited cartridges to one particular brand (Comp-X) and another has banned two or three types which are thought to be noisier than the others.

 

Therefore, a test I'd like to see and which could possible help all clay shooters is one to determine how much noise different cartridges actually make. Perhaps combined with barrel lengths/chokes and at different distances from the gun?

See where you're coming from, but at the end of the day the decision is simply down to the district council noise abatement chappie and his meter if or when it all hits the fan.

[wigeon jim]

I also think it's a wast of time for factory shells as you can get around a 100 fps difference constantly between a skinny bore barrel and an overbore barrel using the same shell. Jim.

[figgy]

Carts like Black gold were always quite noisy but a localish club are having noise problems and he said the Black Golds are not that bad anymore,cant remember what he did say put out a lot of noise. but it was quite significant to the point they may have to restrict the makes of carts allowed,or ban the noisiest ones.

[deershooter]

It's all a big con look at these cartridges the one on the left is express English sporter £156 per 1000 the black one is a hull soverign £246 per thousand the only difference is the primer is that worth £90 per 1000