Salop Matt Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 I watch a fair amount of shooting on youtube and last night I was watching Mark Winsor when he won the LR. His last two cartridges he used Gamebore White Gold and previously he had used Black gold. Now is it that he genuinely is that in tune with his gun and set up that he can perceive the 50 fps difference in the cartridges....Or is it psychology ? And how many of the big names such as George Digweed, Mark Winsor, Ed Solomons could tell you the difference if you gave them a closed gun with White Gold in the one barrel and Black Gold in the second? Could they honestly shoot both barrels unknowingly and be able to tell you which was the quicker cartridge? ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 50fps nope.black gold v white gold yep. b/g i think noticeably bumpier but down range performance no idea...(ps im not a top shot)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 I would imagine they can, after all they do get through a good number of cartridges each year. Dealing with such differences can be the difference between a top shot and an also ran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaikalsRule90 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 No, anyone who says they can only think they can. Alot of this sport is in the mind. You tell yourself that quarter choke wont kill at range in the heat of the moment you will be thinking about that and will miss the target, it's the same concept with cartridges Black gold and white gold have different recoil characteristics. The likes of mark and George could probably tell the difference on that alone... Black gold have Gordon recoil system but doesn't stop them from dislocating your arm haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 No. Not unless he/they can tell the difference between 7 ft/sec at, say, 35 yards and 18/10,000ths of a second flight time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted July 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Any speculation on why Mark did do the cartridge swap then? The FPS difference is 50fps with BG and WG. But brand aside is it solely recoil comfort or is it the speed perception ? To be that in tune with the gun etc to be able to perceive the velocity differences must be incredible. ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Any speculation on why Mark did do the cartridge swap then? The FPS difference is 50fps with BG and WG. But brand aside is it solely recoil comfort or is it the speed perception ? To be that in tune with the gun etc to be able to perceive the velocity differences must be incredible. ATB Matt Might have been 7.5 v 8 and colour allows easy identification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) 50 fps NO way, (don't forget the standard deviation between shells in the first place is prolly 20 fps) 100 fps I'd be mighty impressed but wouldn't say it's impossible given enough shells on the type of presentation where velocity difference can be detected, for instance a silly easy going away at close yardage tells you nothing, a good distance hard quartering or crossing or even distant Teal is a different matter. 200 fps, absolutely. I have always maintained people who dismiss the importance of velocity aren't comparing like for like. Anyone who has shot air guns to any degree will be able to tell you how easy detecting the 200 fps difference in velocity is, both in terms of hearing it as well as feeling it. The latter (feel) is what top shots detect. I believe what Mark Winser did on that last pair would have been his way of alleviating pressure and settling his mind, not because he actually thought any velocity differences mattered in themselves. ps. we are assuming that any tests would be done using cartridges that nearasdammit behaved identically regarding thump. Edited July 21, 2016 by Hamster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 No, anyone who says they can only think they can. Alot of this sport is in the mind. You tell yourself that quarter choke wont kill at range in the heat of the moment you will be thinking about that and will miss the target, it's the same concept with cartridges Black gold and white gold have different recoil characteristics. The likes of mark and George could probably tell the difference on that alone... Black gold have Gordon recoil system but doesn't stop them from dislocating your arm haha. Cant say as I notice the recoil for any of the shells (but i shoot no more than 32g with a self loader) i shoot with and certainly would not notice any difference between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted July 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Okay so in a simlar train of thought..... Those who shoot clays and game, Do you alter your lead when shooting game ? as cartridges for game seem to be 1375 -1400fps where as clay cartridges all seem to be 1425 - 1500fps! ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 50FPS downrange will be over 150 to 170fps at the muzle from a 30 yard range, you could notice 30 yards or so, So in this case you could notice a slight increase in felt recoil depending on the case and components in the loads, but any noticable performance ie lead etc will by vertualy imeasurable never mind noticable. So using a shotshell balistics programe like KPY etc will show you the theoretical advantages perhaps but you could never tell downrange. Now if we are talki ng 50fps at the muzle ......NEVER that would be imposible to detect downrange, a slight change in temp or humidity would show bigger variations in FPS you could never tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postie Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Maybe he switched carts on that stand to reduce muzzle flip if they were 2 close quick targets those black golds Are a lot more punchy than white gold well the slab I had was,shot 100 B/G and I could feel it in the shoulder next day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 No difference in lead at all, recoil yes. I would say it was more a psyc move for mark, to remind him to hold back if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Digweed changes from White Gold to Black Gold in this clip but the BG`s are No.5s, so the shot size is probably the more important factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 A straight question........a straight answer.....absolutely not. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Potter Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 A straight question........a straight answer.....absolutely not. Cat. +1 Mr Potter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 I have read from plenty on here that think they can tell the difference between cartridges with similar speeds. Always makes me chuckle. I doubt there are many people who could tell the difference between cartridges that differ by 200fps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted July 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 No difference in lead at all, recoil yes. I would say it was more a psyc move for mark, to remind him to hold back if anything. Hi Ed, Do you think you could tell any volocity difference in a blind test? Two cartridges 50 - 100fps MV difference! ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) I would say very few people can tell the difference in any velocity, someone gave me real velocity test data that doesn't agree with the manufactures data and most people who see it are surprised by the results. What people notice is a sweet smooth shooting cartridge over a lumpy one. They assume the lumpy one is faster normally. It must of been mind games or to remind him to do something. Edited July 22, 2016 by welshwarrior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Hi Ed, Do you think you could tell any volocity difference in a blind test? Two cartridges 50 - 100fps MV difference! ATB Matt Categorically no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted July 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Thanks for the response Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I have read from plenty on here that think they can tell the difference between cartridges with similar speeds. Always makes me chuckle. I doubt there are many people who could tell the difference between cartridges that differ by 200fps. I doubt there would be many half experienced ones who couldn't and I'd stand on that in a proper test. What you have to bear in mind is that you can't expect anyone to be able to spit out the muzzle velocity of similar shell after similar shell on some easypeasy target one after the other, blind test or not, that is not what I am saying. But you absolutely should be able to detect differences in lead feel between a slow and a fast shell (which is essentially around 200 fps) once you have shot a decent number on certain target presentations and most definitely after a slab. I remember commenting that the original 21g loads that were brought out to save the world a few years ago felt slow (which explains their awfulness), this was after a slab but I already knew they were orrible after ten shots. Lo and behold when velocity figures were eventually released months later they were very much on the slow side. The patterns too incidentally looked orrible because they were sparse EXACTLY as you would expect them to. If you doubt that just think of sub sonic shells which are deliberately loaded below the speed of sound against say a standard shell doing 12-1300 fps, you'd have to be extremely inexperienced or asleep not to tell the difference. I once took back 900 Victory 480's back in the day that were loaded to be soft on the shoulder, not only did some clays that were hit fail to break but I literally broke the back end bird of a pair whilst aiming for the front one ! To recap 50 fps, an emphatic no, 100 fps possible, 200 fps oh yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I doubt there would be many half experienced ones who couldn't and I'd stand on that in a proper test. What you have to bear in mind is that you can't expect anyone to be able to spit out the muzzle velocity of similar shell after similar shell on some easypeasy target one after the other, blind test or not, that is not what I am saying. But you absolutely should be able to detect differences in lead feel between a slow and a fast shell (which is essentially around 200 fps) once you have shot a decent number on certain target presentations and most definitely after a slab. I remember commenting that the original 21g loads that were brought out to save the world a few years ago felt slow (which explains their awfulness), this was after a slab but I already knew they were orrible after ten shots. Lo and behold when velocity figures were eventually released months later they were very much on the slow side. The patterns too incidentally looked orrible because they were sparse EXACTLY as you would expect them to. If you doubt that just think of sub sonic shells which are deliberately loaded below the speed of sound against say a standard shell doing 12-1300 fps, you'd have to be extremely inexperienced or asleep not to tell the difference. I once took back 900 Victory 480's back in the day that were loaded to be soft on the shoulder, not only did some clays that were hit fail to break but I literally broke the back end bird of a pair whilst aiming for the front one ! To recap 50 fps, an emphatic no, 100 fps possible, 200 fps oh yes. This with the amendment to doubtfull in place of possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Titbit from ANSI/SAAMI Z299.2 - 2015. Wonder what figure the UK manufacturers (CIP) deem to be an acceptable SD. Ammunition tested subsequent to manufacture using equipment and procedures conforming to these guidelines can be expected to produce velocities within a tolerance of ±90 fps of the tabulated values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornfree Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I reckon I could easily tell the difference in shells with 100 fps between them. As long as one was 1050fps and the other 1150fps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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