oowee Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 The NHS is and must be doomed to fail as a concept. As we develop more and more treatments our ability to keep people alive longer increases. As we get more and more people getting more treatments it will get exponentially expensive as we all expect to have that life saving treatment. Add that to a nanny state that tries to reduce smoking, speeding, drink and drugs and you get an ever greater population using the service. As we get greater global competition our place at the top of the world order will gradually diminish as we loose out to international competition and we will have to accept a reducing (diluted) level of economic activity. How can we hope to feed the lifestyle and dreams of a health service free for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Gordon From every post be it NHS, Brexit or the price of pizza there is a common link. Your dislike of any form of immigration. Now that's fine as it's your opinion,but do you have to keep going on and on and on and on about it............ It's not the 'Sole' reason for he problems of the UK, not the sole solution either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 The NHS issue is the fault of the Thatcher tory government. They created lots of middle manages and split each ward, office, arm into it's own little business with lots of clerical staff and it's own structure of management. The reason being not that it was better for the NHS but white collar workers and management are more likely to vote tory. For every doctor, nurse or paramedic you see there are 10 people behind them managing. Ian Still blaming Maggie after 30 years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 :good: From 1997 until last year, 6 million immigrants arrived in the uk, the figures don't split down any further so these could be brain surgeons, bankers or cleaners plus anything in between. Whilst these numbers may not have added hugely to the NHS problems, it is a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Jaymo - it would be easy to just dismiss you as an idiot, I trust you are at least one step up from that level. I have never said that I am against immigration. I believe that it should be limited and only those who add something to the country and will genuinely attempt to fit in should qualify. The NHS is flooded with patients, very many of whom are immigrants - many illegal at that, but the same NHS would collapse without the immigrants who work in it and do a brilliant job. Whilst the dishing out advice season is in full swing, could I ask that you stop whingeing about my posts and take a little more care with your own. keg - add another 5 million illegals to that figure. No-one seems to take any notice of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Do you have a source for this? I'd like to read it. The NHS issue is the fault of the Thatcher tory government. They created lots of middle manages and split each ward, office, arm into it's own little business with lots of clerical staff and it's own structure of management. The reason being not that it was better for the NHS but white collar workers and management are more likely to vote tory. For every doctor, nurse or paramedic you see there are 10 people behind them managing. Ian I'll save him a job as according to the independent Nuffield Trust..... The number of people who are employed specifically as managers is much lower. As counted up by the Health and Social Care Information Centre, it is only around 51,000 people out of 1.17 million. This includes doctors and nurses who do full-time management roles I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/blog/fact-or-fiction-nhs-has-too-many-managers I used to think that the NHS was over managed so it came as a surprise to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Some interesting stats here also http://www.nhsemployers.org/news/2015/07/the-nhs-workforce-in-numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) keg and AVB - thanks for that. I was a bit concerned with the previously cited figures. Edited January 12, 2017 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Still blaming Maggie after 30 years.... You want to come down to South Wales, every thing is Maggie's fault, its all a big Tory plot. Edited January 12, 2017 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Some interesting stats here also http://www.nhsemployers.org/news/2015/07/the-nhs-workforce-in-numbers Do those figures include the money spent on private business consultants and agencies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted January 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Wow I'm slightly overwhelmed by the debate I've started here, never been so popular! In conclusion it seems there are many theories as to the problem but in reality it seems a multi faceted thing with no easy answers, but I do think the figure of our per capita expenditure on the NHS being significantly lower than that of countries with a similar set up is very key - if we don't pay in as much as others of course the service will struggle I don't buy the immigration thing as being more than a small part of the problem, it's easy to blame them but things like obesity and the general expense of modern drugs and treatment seem to be more pertinent perhaps? Add to that the complete removal in many cases of mental health support and elderly care and it's no wonder the system is creaking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Wow I'm slightly overwhelmed by the debate I've started here, never been so popular! In conclusion it seems there are many theories as to the problem but in reality it seems a multi faceted thing with no easy answers, but I do think the figure of our per capita expenditure on the NHS being significantly lower than that of countries with a similar set up is very key - if we don't pay in as much as others of course the service will struggle I don't buy the immigration thing as being more than a small part of the problem, it's easy to blame them but things like obesity and the general expense of modern drugs and treatment seem to be more pertinent perhaps? Add to that the complete removal in many cases of mental health support and elderly care and it's no wonder the system is creaking Immigration isn't THE problem. But it is A problem. Poor diet, smoking, excessive drinking, ageing population, Friday and Saturday nights in A&E (drinking again), misuse of A&E, misuse of prescriptions, too many people suing the NHS are also problems. Immigration causes some unique problems though. My wife is a midwife so experiences these first hand. Some immigrant populations have some quite troublesome health problems due to marrying a bit closely. Others see epidurals as a status symbol and demand them. This is just in maternity, multiply that by the whole of the NHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) You want to come down to South Wales, every thing is Maggie's fault, its all a big Tory plot. I drive through the Valleys every few months and they don't seem to have moved on. Has there been as much money thrown at them as they have in S Yorks? Immigration isn't THE problem. But it is A problem. Poor diet, smoking, excessive drinking, ageing population, Friday and Saturday nights in A&E (drinking again), misuse of A&E, misuse of prescriptions, too many people suing the NHS are also problems. Immigration causes some unique problems though. My wife is a midwife so experiences these first hand. Some immigrant populations have some quite troublesome health problems due to marrying a bit closely. Others see epidurals as a status symbol and demand them. This is just in maternity, multiply that by the whole of the NHS. Agreed, would love to know how big the front end costs are for dealing with the aftermath of the drunken crowds on a Friday or Saturday or even if there is a big costs? What we can't get away from is that the country only has so much money. Edited January 12, 2017 by keg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Viking If you ever watch any of the 'Benefits' type programmes on tv then it's not just 'Jonny foreigner' that laughs at their 'easy money' no, but its them who think lets go there, there all puppets and will give up a house, money, other free **** dental and hospital care, i know this country has its fair share of benefit scroungers, and i blame the government for that for making it far to easy on them, but thats another story, but at least there from this country, not just rocked up for what they can get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Immigration causes some unique problems though. My wife is a midwife so experiences these first hand. Some immigrant populations have some quite troublesome health problems due to marrying a bit closely. Others see epidurals as a status symbol and demand them. This is just in maternity, multiply that by the whole of the NHS. I read somewhere that 3 out of 4 babies born in the UK have a mother who was from another country so if that's true it's certainly an area that the NHS has been put under huge strain from migration, on the whole it would appear there are more pressing problems for the NHS however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Viking Doesn't Britain have historical interests in seeking out 'better lives' abroad over the years - taking Benefit of what other Countries have to offer. Think mass migration to the Americas and Australia...... But I also get your point- it does rile you to have someone 'rubbing your nose in it', but blame the system as well as the individual. I for one if put in the situation would do anything for my family- though I might draw the line at moving further north than Watford :-) Mr G- many months ago you were very willing to dish it out to myself and others. Only returning the favour :-) As to checking my own postings - well you have contradicted yourself a wee bit with immigration is the fault but immigration is also needed.... But many many times I have stated- not here for slanging matches, just balancing out things a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 I drive through the Valleys every few months and they don't seem to have moved on. Has there been as much money thrown at them as they have in S Yorks? Agreed, would love to know how big the front end costs are for dealing with the aftermath of the drunken crowds on a Friday or Saturday or even if there is a big costs? What we can't get away from is that the country only has so much money. Another thing I would like to know is the ongoing and weekly cost of treatment for "sports,and keep fit" injuries. Over the last few years I have known several fitness freaks and they seemed to spend an awful amount of time in A&E, at their GP and in physio? There is also the ongoing cost of damaged joints, at least 2 of the marathon types, still in their early 50's have needed and had knee replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) I drive through the Valleys every few months and they don't seem to have moved on. Has there been as much money thrown at them as they have in S Yorks? South Wales has regenerated about a million percent environmentally. Fifty years ago the valleys were deathtraps, just about everything that could be wrong was wrong, the air was full of sulphur, the rivers ran black and slag heaps littered the landscape. Now they are pretty and green For the people I would say a lot of them have never moved on, mentally or physically. Third generation now on benefits some of them, no prospects and no ambition. In Tennessee when a mine closes the people are forced to move away and seek work elsewhere. They have no choice. In S Wales the dole locks them in, trapped in a pointless life, a sort of groundhog day existence The house prices are still falling, about a quarter of a percent last year and I see very little real economic regeneration. Its a good place for me but not for everybody Edited January 12, 2017 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 South Wales has regenerated about a million percent environmentally. Fifty years ago the valleys were deathtraps, just about everything that could be wrong was wrong, the air was full of sulphur, the rivers ran black and slag heaps littered the landscape. Now they are pretty and green For the people I would say a lot of them have never moved on, mentally or physically. Third generation now on benefits some of them, no prospects and no ambition. In Tennessee when a mine closed the people are forced to move away and seek work elsewhere. They had no choice. In S Wales the dole locked them into a desolate lifestyle, a sort of groundhog day existence The house prices are still falling, about a quarter of a percent last year and I see very little real economic regeneration. Its a good place for me but not for everybody I think there has been some well meant but short sighted policies in Wales that have added to their problems. Loads of money have been thrown at new businesses or those re-locating in order to soften the blow of mass unemployment.Some of that money has been taken by businesses that had no intention of ever continuing after the typically five year tranche of grants and subsidies ended. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-34256811 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iano Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Gordon From every post be it NHS, Brexit or the price of pizza there is a common link. Your dislike of any form of immigration. Now that's fine as it's your opinion,but do you have to keep going on and on and on and on about it............ It's not the 'Sole' reason for he problems of the UK, not the sole solution either. The bit I really don't get is when I'm in london, I meet with other Irish guys who I used to work with and sometimes they bring mates (these would be lads on building sites). The amount of Irish that voted for brexit so the immigrants would leave (and they get their jobs back on the building sites) is worryingly high... To call it turkeys voting for Christmas is to do an injustice to the birds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 South Wales has regenerated about a million percent environmentally. Fifty years ago the valleys were deathtraps, just about everything that could be wrong was wrong, the air was full of sulphur, the rivers ran black and slag heaps littered the landscape. Now they are pretty and green For the people I would say a lot of them have never moved on, mentally or physically. Third generation now on benefits some of them, no prospects and no ambition. In Tennessee when a mine closes the people are forced to move away and seek work elsewhere. They have no choice. In S Wales the dole locks them in, trapped in a pointless life, a sort of groundhog day existence The house prices are still falling, about a quarter of a percent last year and I see very little real economic regeneration. Its a good place for me but not for everybody This is spot on in my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longspoon Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 It's nothing to do with baby boomers, quite simply there are too many people, thanks to immigration, living on this island. I care not what colour, race or creed they are, we should stop all immigration to this country unless they can prove they will benefit the country with there skills. We are no longer able to play the "Great" benefactor, come one, come all, those days are gone. While we are at it, stop all foreign aid, it's scandalous pouring away money to other countries, whoever decided we should prop up these places financially ? we have no obligation to do so. Stop health tourism, spend the money saved, in not paying out aid on our infrastructure NHS etc. it is very simple.........the will though is sadly lacking in our government ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 BrowningB525 - totally agree. Jaymo - well you have contradicted yourself a wee bit with immigration is the fault but immigration is also needed.... That is a view I have consistently posted. Only those who are a bit thick chose to misinterpret it. You need to read and understand before jumping in and making a fool of yourself. I didn't realise you had been holding a junior grudge for some months. It doesn't matter to me as your opinion isn't worth a bean to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 I apologise for being so 'thick' , I don't know how I make it through the working week! Don't really do grudges- but just occasionally I find 'tuppence' in my moneybox and feel the need to spend it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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