Cosd Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 Doing up my house I have had 50 odd metres of plaster cornice put up using Evo Stick Coving and ceiling ready mix adhesive. The adhesive was used with 3-4 days of purchase, 7 tubs of it. After a few days one of the covings had dropped but was still held in place by the screws in the ceiling (this is the plaster type, 110mm on the wall and 210mm on the ceiling, so requires some screws just to hold it whilst the adhesive sets) A week later and I notice one piece of coving is hanging by the screws on the ceiling. not the end of the world, but had to leave it like that because tilers were in doing the floors. Last night I got up on a ladder to take down that hanging piece to see how it could be put right and I notice the piece next to it has a hairline crack between the adhesive and the wall; A little push with the finger and there's movement. The more I look around the more I can see these hairline cracks. The walls and ceilings were plastered some 5-6 weeks ago and fully dried. the walls and ceilings were sealed which was also a recommendation on preparation on the adhesive. I called Evo Stick today and explained the situation, and was advised that they had two types of batch numbering, either stamped into the lid or on a sticker; Mine have neither. They also went on to explain that the batch numbers would show the date of manufacture and that they have a 2 year shelf life. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but alarm bells should have rung when I picked these up, as they were the last ones and covered in dust. I reported this to Selco head office who have since been in touch with the branch manager and regional manager. They have asked i send them pictures of the cornice and to take back the empty tubs. I've now emails a short video but not taken the tubs in yet. In the mean time they offered a full refund of the Adhesive as well as sending me 7 new tubs, but i refused this based on the fact I am now deeply out of pocket to the tune of £3k including the installation which would all need to be done again. Apologies for the long winded story, but needed to vent as I'm really annoyed now, especially not knowing what the outcome will be and the fact that I can't crack on. Can anyone tell me where I stand legally? I don't doubt both Selco and Evo-Stick will try to blame each other and wriggle out of it. Cos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 As far as I am aware you have been offered more that the relevant law`s entitle you to., did yo buy the adhesive at trade cost ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 At a guess I would say that if the instructions mention using before any particular date and no date was displayed (sounds like the label may have been removed) then your case is against the supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted February 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 As far as I am aware you have been offered more that the relevant law`s entitle you to., did yo buy the adhesive at trade cost ?. I paid whatever their price was, not sure what trade cost is, but I have an account there. At a guess I would say that if the instructions mention using before any particular date and no date was displayed (sounds like the label may have been removed) then your case is against the supplier. Yes my issue is with the supplier, if they have bought it less than 2 years ago then their issue is with the supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandringstar Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 you go to the retailer, that's who your contract is with, don't be fobbed off with this you need to speak to evo stik nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennett Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 Where do you stand? Not under the coving! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 The manufacturers claim they give each tub a batch number which would reveal information such as shelf life etc, if there is no batch number on the tubs it was either omitted at the factory or has been removed by the retailer presumably to make an out of date item saleable? Where/how does the manufacture imprint the batch-numbers on the tubs? If you have the tubs (hopefully with some adhesive left in?) and they do not have batch numbers imprinted where they should be, it is up to the manufacturer and retailer to sort that out!........Your claim is against the retailer, I would get two independent quotes to put things right and send them by registered letter the the retailers head office giving them two weeks to accept liability, failing receipt of this acceptance of liability in the timescale given, I would in the first instance, get in touch with trading standards for guidance, as your claim is that the adhesive did not adhere as claimed therefore was "not fit for purpose" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 A customer's contract is with the retailer, not the manufacturer or anyone else down the line. Don't let them tell you otherwise. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remimax Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) out of intrest i take it the evostick adhesive was good to use on fresh plaster with no surface prime. only asking as i,ve seen it done with wall tiling on fresh plaster with no pva prime and they all fell off lol. Edited February 28, 2017 by Remimax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 I think you may find they are only responsible for replacement or refund of the product and not for any other costs and this ONLY applies to retail purchases, if you are a trade buyer then you have far fewer rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 I think you may find they are only responsible for replacement or refund of the product and not for any other costs and this ONLY applies to retail purchases, if you are a trade buyer then you have far fewer rights. Under normal circumstances this is probably the case, but where damage has provably been done and loss has occurred due to the product being not "fit for purpose" due to loss of efficacy, possibly because it was out of date? There may well be grounds to sue for loss/damages? Hence seeking advice from Trading Standards. As you say trade to trade is probably not covered by consumer protection legislation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 I am also guessing the op did buy the item trade as somewhere on his membership will be the word trade, on there website there are several links to get a trade card but I can't find any links to any other forms of card or membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 I am also guessing the op did buy the item trade as somewhere on his membership will be the word trade, on there website there are several links to get a trade card but I can't find any links to any other forms of card or membership. Selco are a trade supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear-uk Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 I would say its the Sealer fault. The adhesive will be stuck to the sealer and the sealer has not stuck to the plaster. As above Selco is Trade. Its in big letters on my Tradecard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny thomas Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 I've found new plaster can be difficult to get adhesive to bond to (I'm not a builder) A good friend told me to use plaster board adhesive for coving it doesn't half stink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Doing up my house I have had 50 odd metres of plaster cornice put up using Evo Stick Coving and ceiling ready mix adhesive. The adhesive was used with 3-4 days of purchase, 7 tubs of it. After a few days one of the covings had dropped but was still held in place by the screws in the ceiling (this is the plaster type, 110mm on the wall and 210mm on the ceiling, so requires some screws just to hold it whilst the adhesive sets) A week later and I notice one piece of coving is hanging by the screws on the ceiling. not the end of the world, but had to leave it like that because tilers were in doing the floors. Last night I got up on a ladder to take down that hanging piece to see how it could be put right and I notice the piece next to it has a hairline crack between the adhesive and the wall; A little push with the finger and there's movement. The more I look around the more I can see these hairline cracks. The walls and ceilings were plastered some 5-6 weeks ago and fully dried. the walls and ceilings were sealed which was also a recommendation on preparation on the adhesive. I called Evo Stick today and explained the situation, and was advised that they had two types of batch numbering, either stamped into the lid or on a sticker; Mine have neither. They also went on to explain that the batch numbers would show the date of manufacture and that they have a 2 year shelf life. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but alarm bells should have rung when I picked these up, as they were the last ones and covered in dust. I reported this to Selco head office who have since been in touch with the branch manager and regional manager. They have asked i send them pictures of the cornice and to take back the empty tubs. I've now emails a short video but not taken the tubs in yet. In the mean time they offered a full refund of the Adhesive as well as sending me 7 new tubs, but i refused this based on the fact I am now deeply out of pocket to the tune of £3k including the installation which would all need to be done again. Apologies for the long winded story, but needed to vent as I'm really annoyed now, especially not knowing what the outcome will be and the fact that I can't crack on. Can anyone tell me where I stand legally? I don't doubt both Selco and Evo-Stick will try to blame each other and wriggle out of it. Cos Looks like your stuck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilksy II Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Did the adhesive come down with the coving or stay on the wall and ceiling? When plaster/adhesive is out of date it just goes off quicker than normal, but couple that with fresh plaster sucking all the moisture out of the adhesive, like someone said above I've seen it with tiles, sorry I think I'd take there offer and put it down to experience . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Where do you stand? Not under the coving! :lol: I would say it's a sticky subject! But quite clearly it's the lack OF sticky If there is no use by date on the tubes, odds are the supplier has bought a cheap batch at the end of life, and took a gamble. Unfortunately, in many cases like these. They just offer replacement adhesive, and not any monies to put right any workmanship Hope you get sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 You would go after the supplier alone, if the supplier wish to countersue Evo Stick that’s their concern not yours. You can claim for damages and loss but not betterment due to the faulty product, i.e. you can claim the exact amount to put it right but not what it cost you to do the job in the first place or some extra compensation for your troubles. Here is your problem though, you will need to prove your case with independent technical expert, they will need to set out the case, cause of failure etc. and remedial costs. Then you will need professional legal help to draft the claim, neither of those are cheap and neither will work on a no win no fee basis. The supplier more likely than or not will have insurance for such a claim and will pass it on to them (I am working on such a case at the moment). They will then appoint their own expert who will check for preparation, workmanship, outside contamination factors, adherence to current British standards and manufacturer’s instructions etc. and also legal liability. The case I am on at the moment the contractor appointed an expert, sent out the report and claim for an alleged faulty product, full cost to remove and replace. The insurance appointed us to investigate, the investigation highlighted workmanship issues, non-adherence to code and good working practice, these factors were the actual cause and not a faulty product. Unfortunately for the contractor his case is dead in the water, he has to pay his own costs legal and expert as well as the remedial costs. He still might decide to pursue the claim but that would get very costly with very little chance of victory now as regardless of the product workmanship was the overriding factor to the failure. I only mention this because if you have some liability it can affect your claim should you go down this route. In your case if they have supplied out of date adhesive and they know they have, you stand a very good chance of getting a contribution with a very basic report and legal letter. If it costs £3000 for them to defend / investigate win or lose and £1000 for it to go away and they know they have some liability (out of date stock) they can be coerced into make a contribution without too much trouble. However, you need leverage which will cost you an initial outlay for outside experts. My advice is to collect as much evidence as possible, go to other branches and see what stock they have in etc. get back to them in writing that you intend to appoint a technical expert and legal representation unless they offer some contribution. Ask why there is no date or bar code etc, when was the last delivery to that location. You have to have a figure in your head you are happy to settle with but remember no one is going to give you £3000 straight off the bat without independent evidence. I have seen cases similar to yours won without of date stock, I have seen them fought and lost or a pyrrhic victory due to costs. There are no guarantees with legal action but applying pressure when they have sold out of date goods might be enough to get you a contribution. Apply pressure in writing and officially is your best way to get the ball rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 You would go after the supplier alone, if the supplier wish to countersue Evo Stick that’s their concern not yours. You can claim for damages and loss but not betterment due to the faulty product, i.e. you can claim the exact amount to put it right but not what it cost you to do the job in the first place or some extra compensation for your troubles. Here is your problem though, you will need to prove your case with independent technical expert, they will need to set out the case, cause of failure etc. and remedial costs. Then you will need professional legal help to draft the claim, neither of those are cheap and neither will work on a no win no fee basis. The supplier more likely than or not will have insurance for such a claim and will pass it on to them (I am working on such a case at the moment). They will then appoint their own expert who will check for preparation, workmanship, outside contamination factors, adherence to current British standards and manufacturer’s instructions etc. and also legal liability. The case I am on at the moment the contractor appointed an expert, sent out the report and claim for an alleged faulty product, full cost to remove and replace. The insurance appointed us to investigate, the investigation highlighted workmanship issues, non-adherence to code and good working practice, these factors were the actual cause and not a faulty product. Unfortunately for the contractor his case is dead in the water, he has to pay his own costs legal and expert as well as the remedial costs. He still might decide to pursue the claim but that would get very costly with very little chance of victory now as regardless of the product workmanship was the overriding factor to the failure. I only mention this because if you have some liability it can affect your claim should you go down this route. In your case if they have supplied out of date adhesive and they know they have, you stand a very good chance of getting a contribution with a very basic report and legal letter. If it costs £3000 for them to defend / investigate win or lose and £1000 for it to go away and they know they have some liability (out of date stock) they can be coerced into make a contribution without too much trouble. However, you need leverage which will cost you an initial outlay for outside experts. My advice is to collect as much evidence as possible, go to other branches and see what stock they have in etc. get back to them in writing that you intend to appoint a technical expert and legal representation unless they offer some contribution. Ask why there is no date or bar code etc, when was the last delivery to that location. You have to have a figure in your head you are happy to settle with but remember no one is going to give you £3000 straight off the bat without independent evidence. I have seen cases similar to yours won without of date stock, I have seen them fought and lost or a pyrrhic victory due to costs. There are no guarantees with legal action but applying pressure when they have sold out of date goods might be enough to get you a contribution. Apply pressure in writing and officially is your best way to get the ball rolling. Thanks for the advice and taking time out to explain in detail.....This is why I love this forum! I have spoken to Citizens advice who have opened a case themselves and also with Trading Standards. They advised that whether its a private or trade sale, the fact that the item is 'not fit for purpose', there is a claim to be made as a consumer. They went on to explain that the failure of adhesion has lead to "consequential loss" which is also a legal claim under the Consumer act. They also believe that in offering a refund and to send me 7 new tubs of adhesive (I have this in writing) is as good as admission of fault. They helped me word an initial letter which I have sent and now is a waiting game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 out of intrest i take it the evostick adhesive was good to use on fresh plaster with no surface prime. only asking as i,ve seen it done with wall tiling on fresh plaster with no pva prime and they all fell off lol. The walls had a mist coat on them to seal them. On the "preparation" details on the tub the instructions mentioned using a sealer on porous surfaces. Can I also add that I've had cornice fitted in 7 properties, its been fitted on fresh plaster, plaster sealed with Unibond, plaster sealed with a mist coat, over painted walls and even over tiles, I have never seen an adhesive fail to bond as long as the surface was prepared appropriately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Timps - I am impressed by your reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) Offer up the batch codes to the manufacturer and get the manufacturer to confirm when those products were created and what their shelf life is (in writing). If the manufacturer says "those tubs left our factory in 2010 and we tell vendors to only keep them on the shelf for 5 years and that's what our trade literature says" then that's all you will need. There's 2 issues: First the shop has sold a product that isn't fit for purpose - query the extent that consumer protection legislation applies in a strict business to business environment (but nonetheless fitness for purpose would be an implied term in a B2B contract anyway). Secondly the shop has sold a product beyond the manufacturers recommended sell by date and was on notice / knew that it was selling a product that was likely to fail. This ought to help bypass the usual lines of defence where the shop says that the age of the product did not cause the failure and that it's on you because it's defective installation / application. . Edited March 1, 2017 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Can the Mods make this a sticky please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.