Article 50 ... Good news?

[big bad lindz]

As it would appear that we are now looking at statistics can anyone find out how many of the poverty poor are not wanting to work but live on state hand outs.

 

Fortunately for myself I have always been in work ever since leaving school a long time ago and I think that some of the younger generation that I work with on a comparable salary today have more disposable income than I had at the same age as

[12gauge82]

Anser, fully understand if you wont answer this on a public forum but out of interest what sector do you work in? I can only assume it's something that relies on EU funding, or is at lest tied to being in the EU?

[yod dropper]

Anser, fully understand if you wont answer this on a public forum but out of interest what sector do you work in? I can only assume it's something that relies on EU funding, or is at lest tied to being in the EU?

 

I seem to recall from an earlier thread that he said he had lost his job and took early redundancy by August due to EU funding being cut after the referendum. This means that his organisation which would have expected us to remain, had the funding cut announced, had the cut implemented, drew up plans for a new structure, redundancies and implemented them by August so that was all in 5-9 weeks. Either that or the situation was made to fit his opinion by blaming it on Brexit. As far as I'm aware no EU funds have been stopped as until 29 March we had not even given notice to leave.

 

It may be true but I find it unlikely.

[oowee]

It is inevitable that we (the west) will get poorer as the rest of the world catches up. We share the wealth as a matter of economics. Others buy more but produce at a lower cost squeezing the wealth of the west. History shows the rise and fall of empires.

The quitters vote to leave just hastens the process.

[wandringstar]

'inevitable', not possible, not likely, not a chance................but inevitable.........nothing with as many variables and tangents could be 'inevitable'.

 

I voted to leave so I was one that just 'inevitably' hastened the poverty that is coming my way.

 

what a load of nonsense.

[KFC]

another main reason that I voted out, and nothing to do with immigration, is the fact that the EU has been unable to produce substantial accounts for years now because of fraud, corruption and lack of accountancy and accountability.

 

Not something I want to be a member of.

[12gauge82]

Deleted due to mix up of posters

Edited March 31, 2017 by 12gauge82

[Vince Green]

another main reason that I voted out, and nothing to do with immigration, is the fact that the EU has been unable to produce substantial accounts for years now because of fraud, corruption and lack of accountancy and accountability.

 

Not something I want to be a member of.

I agree with you 100% but while we know there is corruption on an epic scale and incompetence on an even more epic scale there is also the arrogance, you missed out arrogance.

[oowee]

'inevitable', not possible, not likely, not a chance................but inevitable.........nothing with as many variables and tangents could be 'inevitable'.

 

I voted to leave so I was one that just 'inevitably' hastened the poverty that is coming my way.

 

what a load of nonsense.

All empires, the west included come and go. The economy gradually eroded by low cost economies diluting margins. Only knowledge driven or culturally unique business will prosper. Largely those that have knowledge will still prosper and the gap between rich and poor will increase.

 

One way to combat this decline is to erect trade barriers such as safety or environmental standards that force low cost producers to increase costs. The larger the market place (Europe / States) the easier this is to put in place as producers will be keen to overcome these hurdles to access the market. Smaller market places will find it more difficult to develop these strategies. The UK could still do this by adopting and following the EU lead but now without a say in its development. An alternative is to develop a bargain basement low tax strategy hence the rhetoric about not making the UK a bargain basement economy.

 

Don't get me wrong the EU process is flawed but the strategy of strength in numbers is fundamentally right. Quitters voted to break away rather than work to change.

Betting on other trade deals and self rule to determine our future. The opposite is likely to be true. As we strive to compete we are likely to have to sign trade deals where we do not have the upper hand. As an example, If i were the US I would insist the UK take my GM crops and open the NHS to competition. If I were the EU I would insist on access to fishing, and compliance with my standards in agriculture, employment law or whatever else.

 

As for immigration, no doubt as we get more competitive (cheaper and more productive), and erect mobility barriers we will be less attractive but this brings further pressure on revenues (tax) to support the life style we have (NHS and pensions).

[Rewulf]

 

 

Don't get me wrong the EU process is flawed but the strategy of strength in numbers is fundamentally right.

 

Strength in numbers only works when everyones pulling their weight.

The EUs plan is to attempt to level up the poorer economies by the richer ones paying for it, that strategy is its biggest flaw.

Countries that really shouldnt have been accepted in the first place.

Inject a few million more non EU economic migrants into the mix, who will also need bottle feeding, and you have a future economic and cultural disaster.

Why do you think the likes of Poland,Hungary and Romania wont accept them, contrary to EU enforced refugee quotas ?

 

I find it difficult to understand how supposedly intelligent people cannot see how bad the EU, and its idiotic strategies really are.

They are on the brink of falling apart, one of its biggest members is leaving, if they had any sense they would cancel their plans to admit 5 more poor countries to the melting pot of doom, and have a serious think about its refugee policy.

But no, full steam ahead to integration, whether you like it or not !

The way that the main stream media refuses to report on the huge amounts of trouble, riots and sexual crimes in large European cities,perpetrated by migrants, reminds me of that Iraqi propaganda minister, saying there were no coalition troops in Baghdad, when the camera clearly showed them trundling up the road behind him.

 

So yes oowee, empires come and go, they usually fall when they go soft.

[Vince Green]

Strength in numbers only works when everyones pulling their weight.

Exactly! and that is never going to happen, too many countries only joined for what they get out of it.

[oowee]

 

Strength in numbers only works when everyones pulling their weight.

The EUs plan is to attempt to level up the poorer economies by the richer ones paying for it, that strategy is its biggest flaw.

Countries that really shouldnt have been accepted in the first place.

Inject a few million more non EU economic migrants into the mix, who will also need bottle feeding, and you have a future economic and cultural disaster.

Why do you think the likes of Poland,Hungary and Romania wont accept them, contrary to EU enforced refugee quotas ?

 

I find it difficult to understand how supposedly intelligent people cannot see how bad the EU, and its idiotic strategies really are.

They are on the brink of falling apart, one of its biggest members is leaving, if they had any sense they would cancel their plans to admit 5 more poor countries to the melting pot of doom, and have a serious think about its refugee policy.

But no, full steam ahead to integration, whether you like it or not !

The way that the main stream media refuses to report on the huge amounts of trouble, riots and sexual crimes in large European cities,perpetrated by migrants, reminds me of that Iraqi propaganda minister, saying there were no coalition troops in Baghdad, when the camera clearly showed them trundling up the road behind him.

 

So yes oowee, empires come and go, they usually fall when they go soft.

Strengthening the weak makes the team stronger. Look at German unification as evidence. A huge bill for the West that paid back in spades.

Also look at the benefit to Germany of being in the Euro team. The poorer countries keep the currency down helping exports.

 

Enforcement does come with the EU but it is slow and cumbersome as you would expect dealing with nation states. The refugee crisis is however easy to overstate 120k is the quota amongst a population of over 700m not a lot in the grand scheme of things.

The EU does not control the media.

 

I would agree they usually fall when they go soft the west is soft, it happens when you get wealthy.

 

Vince. Joining to get something out of it is why we all joined.

Edited March 31, 2017 by oowee

[krugerandsmith]

another main reason that I voted out, and nothing to do with immigration, is the fact that the EU has been unable to produce substantial accounts for years now because of fraud, corruption and lack of accountancy and accountability.

 

Not something I want to be a member of.

 

absolutely correct ... How could anyone vote for that corrupt shower.

[wandringstar]

I wouldn't call the west an empire, I would say its the end result of higher civilisation that took 1000 plus years to achieve, it is a total marvel, yet its being weakened daily, importing the third world never brings the third world up, it always brings the host down, as the host is too polite and scared to demand the same standards.

 

I look around and I could cry.

 

If the west disintegrates, it wont be because someone out thought it, or was stronger or better, it will be because we let it go through weakness and allowing the treacherous left to run things.

Edited March 31, 2017 by wandringstar

[oowee]

I wouldn't call the west an empire, I would say its the end result of higher civilisation that took 1000 plus years to achieve, it is a total marvel, yet its being weakened daily, importing the third world never brings the third world up, it always brings the host down, as the host is too polite and scared to demand the same standards.

 

I look around and I could cry.

 

If the west disintegrates, it wont be because someone out thought it, or was stronger or better, it will be because we let it go through weakness and allowing the treacherous left to run things.

Surely decline inevitable decline is a reflection of what we have achieved? We want to take reward and enjoy life with more leisure. Not working every hour in the day for peanuts and having fewer children, makes us less competitive than those that will. Even the UK try's to support less prosperous areas, those less academic or physically able. With our population in decline and an ever economically burgeoning retired population we face stiff choices.

 

Only knowledge and working as a team can give us an edge. The quitters choose to work as a small team, which with the Scottish ref may be even smaller. Those in the EU can see a different picture.

 

I am fortunate, not to have to worry about it and depending on the social chapter agreements I could do very well out of the split. Many will be less fortunate regardless of the way the vote went.

[motty]

oowee, stop saying "quitters". It is pathetic.

[wandringstar]

oh thanks, so your views were all for us then, you wont have to worry about it, and will do very well out of it,

 

You are talking like you are an observer of brexit, on a much higher level of thinking to everyone else.

 

We have 44 years of evidence of the EU, we decided that was enough for us and left, yet somehow those still in the EU are on this higher level of yours and can see a different picture.

 

Are you just winding everybody up?

[oowee]

oh thanks, so your views were all for us then, you wont have to worry about it, and will do very well out of it,

 

You are talking like you are an observer of brexit, on a much higher level of thinking to everyone else.

 

We have 44 years of evidence of the EU, we decided that was enough for us and left, yet somehow those still in the EU are on this higher level of yours and can see a different picture.

 

Are you just winding everybody up?

No I am in the same boat as everyone else. My job was working for UK plc to bring companies to the UK and I just have a different perspective. The EU was and is carp and needs to change. Hopefully the UK leaving pushes that change to happen but I don't hold my breath.

[neutron619]

People are only free if they are free to make the "wrong" choice.

 

I merely observe.

[yod dropper]

Oowee, though I will disagree with your position, I do understand it and at least you can put up a decent enough argument.

 

I was trying to find a book which I thought was by Andrew Roberts about how great empires fall from within but I might have the wrong author. I did come across a novel by him though, 'The Aachen Memorandum' written in 1995:

 

"a dystopian vision of what Britain might turn into if it became a minor satrapy of a vast protectionist, illiberal anti-American, politically correct EU."

 

"...In the book's account of the fictional 2015 campaign, leaders of the business sector predict "mass unemployment in the event of a "No" victory", and "the chattering classes endorse the "Yes" campaign en masse." The 'Yes' campaign is "well-funded" by the British government, the London region votes clearly to join the Union, and the north-east of England votes against by 56% to 44%......" (Quotes from Wikipedia). This will be a birthday present for one of my brothers.

 

 

I would also recommend the Vanished Kingdoms book by Norman Davies, it goes someway to explaining why I think the EU will collapse.

Edited March 31, 2017 by yod dropper

[Rewulf]

. The EU was and is carp and needs to change. Hopefully the UK leaving pushes that change to happen but I don't hold my breath.

 

So what the heck are you arguing about?

Why say we are quitters, whilst singing the the blocs praises ?

Youve been in the job too long, youve started believing the hype mate!

[Retsdon]

Pretty much everything worthwhile in life involves a degree of sacrifice -that's just how it seems to work. For sure, leaving the EU is going to be financially painful for a while but in the long run (IMHO) the decision will be proven to have been for the best.

 

The argument that a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, trained immigrant labour doesn't negatively impact on the wages and working conditions of the indigenous population is absurd. Likewise the conflating of GDP with economic and social well-being. Look at a population graph for the U.K.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources

 

Then look at at a GDP graph..

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth

 

..in real per capita terms Britons have become poorer and poorer under the EU. Any GDP increase is just backwash from juicing the population numbers with immigrants. It's simply smoke and mirrors stuff.

[oowee]

Oowee, though I will disagree with your position, I do understand it and at least you can put up a decent enough argument.

 

I was trying to find a book which I thought was by Andrew Roberts about how great empires fall from within but I might have the wrong author. I did come across a novel by him though, 'The Aachen Memorandum' written in 1995:

 

"a dystopian vision of what Britain might turn into if it became a minor satrapy of a vast protectionist, illiberal anti-American, politically correct EU."

 

"...In the book's account of the fictional 2015 campaign, leaders of the business sector predict "mass unemployment in the event of a "No" victory", and "the chattering classes endorse the "Yes" campaign en masse." The 'Yes' campaign is "well-funded" by the British government, the London region votes clearly to join the Union, and the north-east of England votes against by 56% to 44%......" (Quotes from Wikipedia). This will be a birthday present for one of my brothers.

 

 

I would also recommend the Vanished Kingdoms book by Norman Davies, it goes someway to explaining why I think the EU will collapse.

Thanks for that. The Norman Davies book sounds an interesting read. I will look it out.

 

 

So what the heck are you arguing about?

Why say we are quitters, whilst singing the the blocs praises ?

Youve been in the job too long, youve started believing the hype mate!

The EU has much to do to get its house in order. My point simply with both the EU and Scotland we are better together. A bigger team makes sense as we get a series of power blocks we will need to be in one. It just needs sorting even if that means a lot of sorting. The UK could have done it but was mostly a reluctant partner.

[Danger-Mouse]

Thanks for that. The Norman Davies book sounds an interesting read. I will look it out.

 

The EU has much to do to get its house in order. . . . . It just needs sorting even if that means a lot of sorting. The UK could have done it but was mostly a reluctant partner.

 

The only way the EU is going to get sorted is a second "Night of the Long Knives". They are fundamentally unwilling to change their ideas of a federal europe. Their solution to everything is "more Europe". They are blinded by their vision, which is why Cameron failed in his negotiations, and why ultimately we saw the UK vote to leave. All they had to do was give him a half decent deal and in all likelihood the Leave campaign would have failed. But in their arrogance they believed in their vision and reaped the results of that arrogance on 23rd June.

 

Even with the shock of Brexit the majority of the EU elite are still intent on following the same old path. Reform only comes when you have reforming politicians and none, or certainly very few of the EU commission fall into that category. By the time they acknowledge the need for reform their house of cards will have fallen and it will be too late.

[wandringstar]

But we are not better off with the eu, that's why we have left, and why we talked about it for years, prior to leaving, maybe change your point now, leaving the eu wasn't some knee jerk response, every commissioner is unelected, how can you think there is any togetherness?

 

We were always not quite part of it anyway, meaning we dident have the euro, which always got up their noses.