Speed verses payload

[greenergp]

Does any of the reloaders/wildfowlers have any thoughts  on speed verses payload, last  season one of the Pinks we got with a 42 gram load of B shot came down with a smashed wing but when cleaning the bird we found that a couple of pellets that hit the body had penetrated through the breast but stopped at the breast bone not making it into the vitals inside.

Some load data gives you figures saying if you  load a couple of grams less shot you would gain an extra 100fps, would this make a difference, would it punch through the bone to do damage inside?

By the way these were not sky high spray and pray shots they were well within range (40yds)

[figgy]

At 40 yards that speed increase would be next to nothing. Bigger shot or heavier shot is the way to go,its about retaining energy to put into the quarry.

[greenergp]

We have used no3 Powershot and that goes right through at those distances....i just wish i could afford to use it all the time

[dipper]

when I started shooting and loading everything was slow .A fast car was slow.I have a old shooting book stating killing range for different shot sizes at different velocitys.Very little in it .Going back a long way I have a mate who's a very good shot he shot O/T .he showed me some of his new cartridges they were Remington RXP .on the box it stated 1200 fps  .he was over the moon .Till I pointed out that was muzzle velocity .the O/v was about 1030.You only need speed with steel.Dipper.

[m greeny]

That's a very poor load if it' not going all the way through the bird at 40 yard

[Dave at kelton]

Assuming you are referring to steel shot my view would be go up a shot size. I also use B and ha e noted this a couple of times. I have killed stone dead geese at good ranges with 42 gm bb mammoth cartridges, the same as my home load in my 10 bore. A lot of the boys here use 5mm but I can' get on with this and use a max 4.8mm in 42 gm loads. 

[greenergp]

I also use a 10 bore and in this i use BB or BBB 42 gram loads, the B shot was was used in a 3.5"  12 bore load.

I take the 12 bore when i am expecting ducks with the occasional goose as the 10 bore is a bit of a lump to carry about.

[motty]

49 minutes ago, dipper said:

when I started shooting and loading everything was slow .A fast car was slow.I have a old shooting book stating killing range for different shot sizes at different velocitys.Very little in it .Going back a long way I have a mate who's a very good shot he shot O/T .he showed me some of his new cartridges they were Remington RXP .on the box it stated 1200 fps  .he was over the moon .Till I pointed out that was muzzle velocity .the O/v was about 1030.You only need speed with steel.Dipper.

But what kind of speed are you talking about? I have found that high speeds are not really all they are cracked up to be. I have posted elsewhere that my best results with steel this season have been with 1 3/4 oz Remington BB @ 1260 fps. Not exactly quick! I shot loads of pinks with them that were certainly not close. I have footage, but I am not allowed to post.

A friend of mine has great success with a 90 pellet BBB load travelling at a similar velocity. Slower speeds can assist with better patterns. Faster muzzle velocities don't really translate to much at 50 or 60 yards.

 

[dipper]

when I started shooting and loading everything was slow .A fast car was slow.I have a old shooting book stating killing range for different shot sizes at different velocitys.Very little in it .Going back a long way I have a mate who's a very good shot he shot O/T .he showed me some of his new cartridges they were Remington RXP .on the box it stated 1200 fps  .he was over the moon .Till I pointed out that was muzzle velocity .the O/v was about 1030.You only need speed with steel.Dipper.

27 minutes ago, motty said:

But what kind of speed are you talking about? I have found that high speeds are not really all they are cracked up to be. I have posted elsewhere that my best results with steel this season have been with 1 3/4 oz Remington BB @ 1260 fps. Not exactly quick! I shot loads of pinks with them that were certainly not close. I have footage, but I am not allowed to post.

A friend of mine has great success with a 90 pellet BBB load travelling at a similar velocity. Slower speeds can assist with better patterns. Faster muzzle velocities don't really translate to much at 50 or 60 yards.

 

Must say I have never loaded steel .If I did it would be bigger shot slower speeds.The same as I do with lead .A good artical on u tube relating to steel shot and speed by Tom Roster testing steel 1980" worth watching.Dipper.

[greenergp]

The main reason i am asking about this is that i have just bought a copy of "HIGH PERFORMANCE RELOADING FOR THE 10 GAUGE SHOTGUN" from 10gaugenut in the USA in the book he has 2 loads using winchester hulls: one  with 1.3/8 oz of shot doing 1675fps and one using 1.1/2 oz shot doing 1540 fps

In the B shot you are losing 11 pellets, is the trade off in speed verses pellet count worth it?

[motty]

1 minute ago, greenergp said:

The main reason i am asking about this is that i have just bought a copy of "HIGH PERFORMANCE RELOADING FOR THE 10 GAUGE SHOTGUN" from 10gaugenut in the USA in the book he has 2 loads using winchester hulls: one  with 1.3/8 oz of shot doing 1675fps and one using 1.1/2 oz shot doing 1540 fps

In the B shot you are losing 11 pellets, is the trade off in speed verses pellet count worth it?

If it were me, I would be looking at even bigger payloads. I would go for 1 5/8 oz and go to speeds of 1350fps.

[Smokersmith]

Either that, or use 2's in the 1 3/8 load, and BBB's in the 1.5 oz load.

[hatsanmad]

I must admit i prefer the lighter faster loads i load a 3.5 37 &38 gram load doing 1497fps at 2.5 meters and it is devastating on geese i have never had one plain out or anything all have been stone dead before they hit the ground. I have actually been favouring a 3inch 32 gram load doing 1513fps at 2.5 meters with 1s &bb and have killed a good few with them and kicks high flyer extra full chokes the combination in my guns is spot on

[Big Mat]

I can't see the point of chasing 1500+ fps by dropping to a much lower payload.

I'd much rather have plenty of pellets in the pattern up there doing 1300 fps. 

 

Just looking back at my notes from the season, all my best shooting was done with loads using loads 1350fps or less.

30 minutes ago, hatsanmad said:

I must admit i prefer the lighter faster loads i load a 3.5 37 &38 gram load doing 1497fps at 2.5 meters and it is devastating on geese i have never had one plain out or anything all have been stone dead before they hit the ground. I have actually been favouring a 3inch 32 gram load doing 1513fps at 2.5 meters with 1s &bb and have killed a good few with them and kicks high flyer extra full chokes the combination in my guns is spot on

That not just about speed though, it's shot placement. You could quite easily have shot them up the bum and not killed them with the same cartridges. 

[motty]

18 hours ago, hatsanmad said:

I must admit i prefer the lighter faster loads i load a 3.5 37 &38 gram load doing 1497fps at 2.5 meters and it is devastating on geese i have never had one plain out or anything all have been stone dead before they hit the ground. I have actually been favouring a 3inch 32 gram load doing 1513fps at 2.5 meters with 1s &bb and have killed a good few with them and kicks high flyer extra full chokes the combination in my guns is spot on

Never had one plane out? You are either a fantastic shot, don't shoot many geese, or something else.

Out of interest, do you shoot the foreshore or inland?

[hatsanmad]

I either clean miss or direct hit. And i shoot both. Never claimed to be a crack shot but i have never had to go chasing a winged bird for a mile they were all dead on being picked no need to get sarcastic

[motty]

7 minutes ago, hatsanmad said:

I either clean miss or direct hit. And i shoot both. Never claimed to be a crack shot but i have never had to go chasing a winged bird for a mile they were all dead on being picked no need to get sarcastic

There was no sarcasm. I don't know anyone that shoots geese that has never had a runner.

[Big Mat]

2 hours ago, hatsanmad said:

I either clean miss or direct hit. And i shoot both. Never claimed to be a crack shot but i have never had to go chasing a winged bird for a mile they were all dead on being picked no need to get sarcastic

 

What about the ones that start planing 100/200 yards further on? It happens and I cannot believe you've never planed one 

[hatsanmad]

Don't believe me I don't need to worry about others thoughts or what they think I know and the lads I shoot with know

[Big Mat]

23 hours ago, hatsanmad said:

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Big Mat

[lancer425]

Speed if you want it or if you think you need it is rapidly becoming a academic topic to debate, as achieving speed is getting harder to achieve as powders available are less progressive in nature  . I look for 3 things these days in this order

1 Safe load

2 best pastern of chosen shot size and load weight.

3 fast as it can go without effecting either of the above.

You do not need speed but if its there with no detrement to anything else then i want it.

 
 

[B525 LIGHT]

Couple of points worth saying are firstly this happened with lead shot too. Not all pellets in a load carry the same energy. A shotgun patterns a very random thing and it takes much more energy to penetrate some parts of a bird than others. Secondly I wouldn’t worry too much, you still have the bird so it did the job. Also a pellet that goes straight through without dumping any energy won’t deliver as much trauma so may not be the answer.

[motty]

1 hour ago, B525 LIGHT said:

Couple of points worth saying are firstly this happened with lead shot too. Not all pellets in a load carry the same energy. A shotgun patterns a very random thing and it takes much more energy to penetrate some parts of a bird than others. Secondly I wouldn’t worry too much, you still have the bird so it did the job. Also a pellet that goes straight through without dumping any energy won’t deliver as much trauma so may not be the answer.

I still don't get the whole 'energy dumping' thing. A pellet that goes through a bird surely has caused more damage than one that has not.

[Walker570]

Head Head Head   Dead Dead Dead ...long time since I shot geese in numbers but I always used factory shells, No 3s and had my fair share of kills. Was never tempted to take a shot further out than I knew where the pattern would be and the load of 3s was dense enough to have a 50-50 chance of a head shot if I did my bit.  "Dead  or a clean miss" ...how many of us that have done a bit of shooting had a bird we thought we had missed, peel out of the sky a couple of hundred yards behind us and now doubt, regardless of what 'bazooka' load we are firing we will p--rick birds and that bird will fly on maybe for miles.   Certainly we p---rick more than we 'clean miss' that's for sure.

What is it with this computerised deal. It doesn't understand plain English

Edited March 13, 2018 by Walker570

[6.5x55SE]

6 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Head Head Head   Dead Dead Dead ...long time since I shot geese in numbers but I always used factory shells, No 3s and had my fair share of kills. Was never tempted to take a shot further out than I knew where the pattern would be and the load of 3s was dense enough to have a 50-50 chance of a head shot if I did my bit.  "Dead  or a clean miss" ...how many of us that have done a bit of shooting had a bird we thought we had missed, peel out of the sky a couple of hundred yards behind us and now doubt, regardless of what 'bazooka' load we are firing we will p--rick birds and that bird will fly on maybe for miles.   Certainly we p---rick more than we 'clean miss' that's for sure.

What is it with this computerised deal. It doesn't understand plain English

Man of  my own heart  

And agree with your comments