India got it right

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

If it's just an emotional indulgence into how bad we'd like to punish scumbags then let me know and I'll give the conversation a miss. 

As you provide no genuine facts whatsoever, can we assume that this is just an emotional indulgence, which would let you bow out from the thread. I genuinely despair and question whether you ever read what others post. You appear to have another agenda, developed on the Planet Zog. Consider this post as "letting you know".

The emotive rubbish about "punishing scumbags" is juvenile. We are talking about the death penalty for very serious crimes.

I trust you are a person who keeps his / her word - so I assume you will not post again.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Gordon R

[henry d]

55 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’d agree with the first paragraph, and can also agree education is key, but if poverty and social and economic problems such as poverty are a factor then we’re scuppered. 

None of the things you have mentioned are relevant to many individuals currently imprisoned in this country, and although possibly relevant to India, it would appear they are seeking an alternative ‘cure’. 

I disagree, they are factors that run alongside the main one which is mental ill health, and the govt does not want to know how many prisoners are suffering from mental ill health because it would cost even more to treat them. Past posts on prisons point out the error that prisons are easy and the prisoners have an easy time of it, yet in 2016 there were 40,161 incidents of self-harm in prisons, the equivalent of one incident for every two prisoners. While in 2016 there were 120 self-inflicted deaths in prison, almost twice the number in 2012, and the highest year on record. (Link here for the doubters)

 

[SpringDon]

I do hope they don’t reintroduce it here since it’s not the Middle Ages any more.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

I do hope they don’t reintroduce it here since it’s not the Middle Ages any more.

Yes youre right, no one goes out and murders and rapes anymore, or any of that other middle ages stuff.

Gangs of brigands and outlaws, dont roam our cities ,stabbing each other to death on an almost daily basis.

Good job robbery and mugging are a thing of the past too 

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, henry d said:

I disagree, they are factors that run alongside the main one which is mental ill health, and the govt does not want to know how many prisoners are suffering from mental ill health because it would cost even more to treat them. Past posts on prisons point out the error that prisons are easy and the prisoners have an easy time of it, yet in 2016 there were 40,161 incidents of self-harm in prisons, the equivalent of one incident for every two prisoners. While in 2016 there were 120 self-inflicted deaths in prison, almost twice the number in 2012, and the highest year on record. (Link here for the doubters)

 

Mmm, some would say that a lot of crimes are committed due to 'temporary' or short term mental health issues, its often used in a defence.
Its not a great comfort to the victim Im afraid, especially when a plea of temporary insanity is entered.
Some would even say paedophilia is a mental illness, but its effects are no less devastating.
Reminds me of the old story of a wife killing her husband, and being acquitted because she had PMT, urban myth or true ? He was no less dead.

Are prisons easy ? 
Ive no idea, the people that do , dont seem too fearful of going back in, do they?
Which appears to be the problem.

[DanBettin]

41 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

 

As you provide no genuine facts whatsoever, can we assume that this is just an emotional indulgence, which would let you bow out from the thread. I genuinely despair and question whether you ever read what others post. You appear to have another agenda, developed on the Planet Zog. Consider this post as "letting you know".

The emotive rubbish about "punishing scumbags" is juvenile. We are talking about the death penalty for very serious crimes.

I trust you are a person who keeps his / her word - so I assume you will not post again.

 

Not sure what you're going on about, an agenda from the planet zog?!

I'm quite open to having my mind changed, the facts and figures posted so far about UK prison being significantly more expensive is a brilliant response, one that gets you thinking. I'm not sticking to my guns out of ignorance, I'm engaging in a debate in which I'd expect more people than just the one to return with something substantial but so far everyone seems to have just chosen their camp and are being stubborn about it without providing anything interesting to back it up.

Getting a bit bored now. I won't post again, feel free to have the last word if you must.

[Gordon R]

Thanks. I will have the last word. You have provided nothing substantial other than saying posters aren't reading your posts properly. I think they are reading them, but like myself, find them contradictory and frankly juvenile.

PS - you were never really engaging in a debate.

[henry d]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Mmm, some would say that a lot of crimes are committed due to 'temporary' or short term mental health issues, its often used in a defence. Go on then where is the proof? Do you have a link or work in this area, or is it just another urban myth?
Its not a great comfort to the victim Im afraid, especially when a plea of temporary insanity is entered.
Some would even say paedophilia is a mental illness, but its effects are no less devastating.
Reminds me of the old story of a wife killing her husband, and being acquitted because she had PMT, urban myth or true ? He was no less dead.

Are prisons easy ? 
Ive no idea, the people that do , dont seem too fearful of going back in, do they?
Which appears to be the problem.

You are totally missing the point and trying to duck the issue, £400 M was spent by the NHS for mental and physical ill health in 2016/17, 37% (31,328) of the prison population present as having mental ill health, and 120 suicides in 2016, it`s not temporary insanity, it is people who need treatment and are not getting it. If you want people not to offend/reoffend then sort out the problems of mental ill health first not string em up after

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Mmm, some would say that a lot of crimes are committed due to 'temporary' or short term mental health issues, its often used in a defence.
Its not a great comfort to the victim Im afraid, especially when a plea of temporary insanity is entered.
Some would even say paedophilia is a mental illness, but its effects are no less devastating.
Reminds me of the old story of a wife killing her husband, and being acquitted because she had PMT, urban myth or true ? He was no less dead.

Are prisons easy ? 
Ive no idea, the people that do , dont seem too fearful of going back in, do they?
Which appears to be the problem.

Can you see that bit Henry ^ Do you even read peoples posts properly ?

You completely avoid answering the bits you dont like or cant answer, and  try and find something to pick apart the argument.
Usually for arguments sake.

What is your opinion on capital punishment, thats what this thread is about  isnt it ?

[Scully]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

I disagree, they are factors that run alongside the main one which is mental ill health, and the govt does not want to know how many prisoners are suffering from mental ill health because it would cost even more to treat them. Past posts on prisons point out the error that prisons are easy and the prisoners have an easy time of it, yet in 2016 there were 40,161 incidents of self-harm in prisons, the equivalent of one incident for every two prisoners. While in 2016 there were 120 self-inflicted deaths in prison, almost twice the number in 2012, and the highest year on record. (Link here for the doubters)

 

Treatment of mental ill health is no guarantee of ‘preventing’ murder, and there are many cases to prove this point. There are many cases where mentally ill patients have been released into the community to murder; all of which is irrelevant to this thread as we’re not discussing the many causes, but rather whether those responsible should be dealt with via capital punishment. 

I have no doubt it is claimed that the likes of Sutcliffe and him responsible for the Soham murders are mentally ill, but are we to spare them because of this? We destroy mad dogs don’t we? Some people are just downright evil regardless of their socio economic circumstances. 

The remainder of your post is irrelevant in my opinion as I’m not interested in how easy or not prisoners have it, nor the self harming or suicides.

I would be interested however, in a link to your claim that ‘the government doesn’t want to know how many prisoners are suffering from mental health issues because it would cost even more to treat them.’ 

[henry d]

25 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Can you see that bit Henry ^ Do you even read peoples posts properly ? Yes, see below

You completely avoid answering the bits you dont like or cant answer, and  try and find something to pick apart the argument.
Usually for arguments sake. See below

What is your opinion on capital punishment, thats what this thread is about  isnt it ?

Some/many/all, fallacies the lot of them, if you choose to use some as in someone else, then you have no idea that they do, you surmise and we cannot then have a discussion as we end up chasing the wind, which leads to the second para above.

Again an informal fallacy, the fallacy of too many questions (or presuppositions). The amount of and fallaciousness of the questions limits any form of answer or drags the person answering into the questioners agenda. Basically your arguments are bad, have presuppositions (a lot including myself are guilty of this, so it isnt personal), loaded questions, complex/multi faceted so that the person answering is unable to even try to give a coherent answer. I believe GRR pointed similar problems of reasoning in the born evil topic, but I can`t remember who it was too, but it is worth a read as is visiting any sites on fallacious arguments.

Wrong, wrong wrong. A much touted argument is the 100% positivity and Lee Rigby`s killers, undoubtedly they did it 100%! Why then would you want to kill them too? To do that you allow them to claim in their heart that they served Allah and will be rewarded (also fallacious but we`ll not have a tangent here), no you go to jail, no matter the cost same as all the others who did kill. Perhaps in the years that pass you will see the error of your ways and repent, perhaps not but the possibility is there, to send him into the next life with hope only serves him. Reminds me of the film Seven with Kevin Bacon as the baddy.

No more time, I`m late for gym

[Delwint]

Cost of keeping an inmate for a year in prison £38,041-00

Price of rope from a hardware shop say £10 

Id say the latter option is clearly cheaper just on 1 years incarceration ?

[Dougy]

2 minutes ago, Delwint said:

Cost of keeping an inmate for a year in prison £38,041-00

Price of rope from a hardware shop say £10 

Id say the latter option is clearly cheaper just on 1 years incarceration ?

Not according to some on here it isn't.  But then I don't think they see things as most people do, odds are they're either teachers or engineer's. 

[Ttfjlc]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Some/many/all, fallacies the lot of them, if you choose to use some as in someone else, then you have no idea that they do, you surmise and we cannot then have a discussion as we end up chasing the wind, which leads to the second para above.

Again an informal fallacy, the fallacy of too many questions (or presuppositions). The amount of and fallaciousness of the questions limits any form of answer or drags the person answering into the questioners agenda. Basically your arguments are bad, have presuppositions (a lot including myself are guilty of this, so it isnt personal), loaded questions, complex/multi faceted so that the person answering is unable to even try to give a coherent answer. I believe GRR pointed similar problems of reasoning in the born evil topic, but I can`t remember who it was too, but it is worth a read as is visiting any sites on fallacious arguments.

Wrong, wrong wrong. A much touted argument is the 100% positivity and Lee Rigby`s killers, undoubtedly they did it 100%! Why then would you want to kill them too? To do that you allow them to claim in their heart that they served Allah and will be rewarded (also fallacious but we`ll not have a tangent here), no you go to jail, no matter the cost same as all the others who did kill. Perhaps in the years that pass you will see the error of your ways and repent, perhaps not but the possibility is there, to send him into the next life with hope only serves him. Reminds me of the film Seven with Kevin Bacon as the baddy.

No more time, I`m late for gym

Kevin Spacey 

[victorismyhero]

do I have to remind you all that the birmingham six were convicted on supposedly "sound" scientific evidence" which turned out not to be so sound afterall....

if we had have had a DP they would have been hung.....what do you death wishers say to that?....

 

NO evidence is 100% reliable, 100% tamper proof, or 100% unplantable.

all it does is increase the PROBABILITY of guilt, and with a prison sentence the requirement of "without a shadow of doubt " can be somewhat "softer" than with the DP.

If you have a DP, then "without a shadow of doubt" means just that, and THAT will never happen.....

 

also give the propensity today for major trials to be come trial by media (and hence the howling torch and pitchfork brigade) is the DP wise?

 

I also have to ask, on who's behalf do you claim to want this backward form of state revenge to be enacted?

yours,

the victims

the victims family

society (whatever that means)

or what.........

 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Wrong, wrong wrong. A much touted argument is the 100% positivity and Lee Rigby`s killers, undoubtedly they did it 100%! Why then would you want to kill them too?

Because Lord Longford might rise from the grave and claim they have converted to Catholisism, seeking their release. There is always some idiot who says a life sentence (without hope of release) is cruel. If I was a relative of Lee Rigby, I would want his killers dead.

Quote

NO evidence is 100% reliable, 100% tamper proof, or 100% unplantable.

Dumbest statement yet.  I want the "backward form of state revenge" -  to quote the second dumbest statement yet.

[victorismyhero]

my my gordon, a mite ti=ouchy are we not...is this how you debate everything???

 

since you obviously doubt my assertion please provide ONE form of evidence that IS 100% reliable, 100% tamperproof and 100% unplantable.....(not to mention 100% un messupable (yes i invented a word) by the chain of custody/laboratory)

 

and what, if not "state revenge" is the DP???

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Some/many/all, fallacies the lot of them, if you choose to use some as in someone else, then you have no idea that they do, you surmise and we cannot then have a discussion as we end up chasing the wind, which leads to the second para above.

Again an informal fallacy, the fallacy of too many questions (or presuppositions). The amount of and fallaciousness of the questions limits any form of answer or drags the person answering into the questioners agenda. Basically your arguments are bad, have presuppositions (a lot including myself are guilty of this, so it isnt personal), loaded questions, complex/multi faceted so that the person answering is unable to even try to give a coherent answer. I believe GRR pointed similar problems of reasoning in the born evil topic, but I can`t remember who it was too, but it is worth a read as is visiting any sites on fallacious arguments.

Wrong, wrong wrong. A much touted argument is the 100% positivity and Lee Rigby`s killers, undoubtedly they did it 100%! Why then would you want to kill them too? To do that you allow them to claim in their heart that they served Allah and will be rewarded (also fallacious but we`ll not have a tangent here), no you go to jail, no matter the cost same as all the others who did kill. Perhaps in the years that pass you will see the error of your ways and repent, perhaps not but the possibility is there, to send him into the next life with hope only serves him. Reminds me of the film Seven with Kevin Bacon as the baddy.

No more time, I`m late for gym

So basically, you don't like the way I word my posts ?

It makes me wonder why you reply to them to be honest. 

It's funny how no one else seems to have a problem understanding me, perhaps you are just too intelligent? 

You have a very dismissive manner Henry, and it's not just myself you seem to have issues with, as a 'youth worker' I would have thought you would be more accommodating of us plebs. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

since you obviously doubt my assertion please provide ONE form of evidence that IS 100% reliable, 100% tamperproof and 100% unplantable.....(not to mention 100% un messupable (yes i invented a word) by the chain of custody/laboratory)

In the case of Lee Rigby......eye witnesses, coupled with mobile phone video & live on Sky IIRC.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Bazooka Joe

[Rewulf]

56 minutes ago, victorismyhero said:

my my gordon, a mite ti=ouchy are we not...is this how you debate everything???

 

since you obviously doubt my assertion please provide ONE form of evidence that IS 100% reliable, 100% tamperproof and 100% unplantable.....(not to mention 100% un messupable (yes i invented a word) by the chain of custody/laboratory)

 

and what, if not "state revenge" is the DP???

You are being somewhat pedantic. 

Some evidence could be planted yes, but when it comes to samples of things like blood, semen, skin, fingerprint, hair, and the transfer of such markers from perp to victim, or vice versa, in what way shape or form can these NOT be concrete proof of guilt. 

If a woman is raped  and battered, semen left inside her, and the perps skin left under her fingernails, and her blood on his clothes, can you give me a scenario where he could plead innocence? 

[victorismyhero]

8 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

In the case of Lee Rigby......eye witnesses, coupled with mobile phone video & live on Sky IIRC.

ah at last .............................eye witness accounts that cant be refuted, due to the number and vanishing chance of collusion  and additionally the recorded evidence....THAT is what I would call "solid evidence ".that could justifiably be used to pass a death sentence.

 

but "scientific evidence"???  ONLY ever useful as an adjunct to reliable and overwhelming eye witness accounts

 

[Bazooka Joe]

No need for scientific evidence, you asked for:

"please provide ONE form of evidence that IS 100% reliable, 100% tamperproof and 100% unplantable!"

That's all that is needed in this case, but a halfwit could match the knifes/blood/skin/material etc to the two cretins that committed this atrocity.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Bazooka Joe

[victorismyhero]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You are being somewhat pedantic. 

Some evidence could be planted yes, but when it comes to samples of things like blood, semen, skin, fingerprint, hair, and the transfer of such markers from perp to victim, or vice versa, in what way shape or form can these NOT be concrete proof of guilt. 

If a woman is raped  and battered, semen left inside her, and the perps skin left under her fingernails, and her blood on his clothes, can you give me a scenario where he could plead innocence? 

It depends on whether you 100% in EVERY case and without reservations consider police/cps/govt and the laboratories working therefor to be 100% truthful, 100%incorruptible, and 100% neutral (as they should be in any criminal case, since their JOB is to elucidate the TRUTH) not to mention 100% competant and accurate....

moreover as the Amount of scientific evidence increases so the reliability goes up. but does it ever reach 100%? It may well easily reach the "lock him uo for life" threshold (afterall if you got it wrong you can give him a wad of cash and let him out again.....) will it ever reach the "wring his neck" threshold?? (since you cant very well just dig him up and say there ya go, if you get THAT wrong)

but I notice that no one cares to comment on the Birmingham six, screwed by a corrupt and incompetant "system" (and not so long ago would have been hung)

 

final thought...rape is a bad example...because....

he could in any case (and especially in a capital case) protest effectively that he (albeit mistakenly) thought the sex and accompanying battering to be "consensual" and you would have to PROVE, (not merely dismiss) that this was not the case, and without independant witness that would be impossible, resulting in a "lesser penalty". As the law stands at present, this argument can affordably be ignored by judges, or at least given only minor consideration, in a capital case however, I suspect you would find things very differently handled....

final final thought...pedantry is the major part of law...especially defence law

[guzzicat]

3 minutes ago, victorismyhero said:

It depends on whether you 100% in EVERY case and without reservations consider police/cps/govt and the laboratories working therefor to be 100% truthful, 100%incorruptible, and 100% neutral (as they should be in any criminal case, since their JOB is to elucidate the TRUTH) not to mention 100% competant and accurate....

moreover as the Amount of scientific evidence increases so the reliability goes up. but does it ever reach 100%? It may well easily reach the "lock him uo for life" threshold (afterall if you got it wrong you can give him a wad of cash and let him out again.....) will it ever reach the "wring his neck" threshold?? (since you cant very well just dig him up and say there ya go, if you get THAT wrong)

but I notice that no one cares to comment on the Birmingham six, screwed by a corrupt and incompetant "system" (and not so long ago would have been hung)

 

final thought...rape is a bad example...because....

he could in any case (and especially in a capital case) protest effectively that he (albeit mistakenly) thought the sex and accompanying battering to be "consensual" and you would have to PROVE, (not merely dismiss) that this was not the case, and without independant witness that would be impossible, resulting in a "lesser penalty". As the law stands at present, this argument can affordably be ignored by judges, or at least given only minor consideration, in a capital case however, I suspect you would find things very differently handled....

final final thought...pedantry is the major part of law...especially defence law

The O/P was the case of  of a 12 year old girl, Consensual?

[victorismyhero]

but the discussion about the DP was, or became  "in general"