How will brexit effect shooting in the UK

[enfieldspares]

Quote

You do know that if 'tyranny ' rears its head in British politics, there are instruments to have them removed from power ?

The tyranny I speak of is the tyranny of Thatcher in 1988 with the self-loading rifle ban and the re-classification of multi shot shotguns to s1, the tyranny of John Major in 1996 and the handgun ban, the tyranny of the Scotland air gun licensing regime, the tyranny of shooters having to pay for Doctor's letters. So I see our membership of the EU as allowing us to challenge such dictatorial legislation in the ECJ. After Brexit we won't have that protection. I lived through Thatcher and Blair. The thought of a future similar Parliament with us, the citizens, unprotected against a future gun ban with no obligation on a UK Parliament to pay any compensation (after we're out of the ECJ they can enact such a law) should worry us all as shooters.

Edited July 24, 2018 by enfieldspares

[stagboy]

59 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

The tyranny I speak of is the tyranny of Thatcher in 1988 with the self-loading rifle ban and the re-classification of multi shot shotguns to s1, the tyranny of John Major in 1996 and the handgun ban, the tyranny of the Scotland air gun licensing regime, the tyranny of shooters having to pay for Doctor's letters. So I see our membership of the EU as allowing us to challenge such dictatorial legislation in the ECJ. After Brexit we won't have that protection. I lived through Thatcher and Blair. The thought of a future similar Parliament with us, the citizens, unprotected against a future gun ban with no obligation on a UK Parliament to pay any compensation (after we're out of the ECJ they can enact such a law) should worry us all as shooters.

 

In the UK, that state cannot take property without compensation. That stems from the Magna Carta (and not the EU).

By contrast, the EU oversaw the confiscation of money from bank accounts in Cyprus (an EU member)  to shore up government finances in 2013. This included stealing large chunks of money that had been awarded to children who had been orphaned after an air crash. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by stagboy
making it polite

[bluesj]

18 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

The tyranny I speak of is the tyranny of Thatcher in 1988 with the self-loading rifle ban and the re-classification of multi shot shotguns to s1, the tyranny of John Major in 1996 and the handgun ban, the tyranny of the Scotland air gun licensing regime, the tyranny of shooters having to pay for Doctor's letters. So I see our membership of the EU as allowing us to challenge such dictatorial legislation in the ECJ. After Brexit we won't have that protection. I lived through Thatcher and Blair. The thought of a future similar Parliament with us, the citizens, unprotected against a future gun ban with no obligation on a UK Parliament to pay any compensation (after we're out of the ECJ they can enact such a law) should worry us all as shooters.

And at what point did the EU step in and stop the things you mentioned?

[stagboy]

It does depress me how many Remoaners try to portray the European Convention on Human Rights as some sort of noble EU invention.

In fact, the treaty was signed in 1950, and the UK was a founder - the property rights it espouses were based on our own unwritten constitution, which itself had it origins in the Magna Cara, signed at Runneymede in 1215. The EU wasn't formed until 1993! 

It was at the behest of the EU that money was stolen from orphans of the Helios air disaster during the Cyprus government's confiscation of bank account deposits in 2013. So much for the EU protecting private property! https://cyprus-mail.com/2018/03/18/helios-orphans-symbol-haircut-injustice/ 

The EU is a fundamentally corrupt tyranny of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. Don't confuse the EU with Europe - a lot of Europeans despise the EU, and the most prosperous Europeans - the Norwegians and the Swiss, both of whom have very healthy shooting communities - are outside the EU and have no intention of joining. 

The sooner we join them outside of the EU, the better.

Edited July 24, 2018 by stagboy
typo, clarification, elucidation

[enfieldspares]

Quote

And at what point did the EU step in and stop the things you mentioned?

That the EU didn't "step in" is a mistaken response. That the UK was in the UK and how EU ase law had developed in the ECJ was what in 1996 obliged the John Major handgun ban to offer comprehensive compensation. In 1988 EU case law hadn't developed that far so Thatcher was able to pay no compensation to RFDs at all. For anything.

So if Magna Carta says that the Government can't take property without compensation where was Magna Carta when RFDs were obliged by the 1988 Act to hand in for destruction SLRs, AR-15s, Ruger Mini-14s and getting paid not a penny piece? Where was it this Magna Carta?

[hambone]

10 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

That the EU didn't "step in" is a mistaken response. That the UK was in the UK and how EU ase law had developed in the ECJ was what in 1996 obliged the John Major handgun ban to offer comprehensive compensation. In 1988 EU case law hadn't developed that far so Thatcher was able to pay no compensation to RFDs at all. For anything.

So if Magna Carta says that the Government can't take property without compensation where was Magna Carta when RFDs were obliged by the 1988 Act to hand in for destruction SLRs, AR-15s, Ruger Mini-14s and getting paid not a penny piece? Where was it this Magna Carta?

Where was the EU?

[GingerCat]

9 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

That the EU didn't "step in" is a mistaken response. That the UK was in the UK and how EU ase law had developed in the ECJ was what in 1996 obliged the John Major handgun ban to offer comprehensive compensation. In 1988 EU case law hadn't developed that far so Thatcher was able to pay no compensation to RFDs at all. For anything.

So if Magna Carta says that the Government can't take property without compensation where was Magna Carta when RFDs were obliged by the 1988 Act to hand in for destruction SLRs, AR-15s, Ruger Mini-14s and getting paid not a penny piece? Where was it this Magna Carta?

It was at Lincoln castle not long ago. Try looking there. 

As much as I like shooting and shooting sports; there are far bigger issues at stake. Ignoring the will of the people and undermining democracy to start with should it not go through. 

No government will allow it's people to starve (outside of communism) as they will be out of post pretty quickly. All this 22% nonsense. Frankly I'm still waiting for ww3 that was promised by Cameron and being at the back of the queue, quite surprised none of it has happened and they are long  up for trade deals -new Zealand  canada, us at all.  (Wait for it " we haven't left yet" yeah yeah) 

The eu is only a small bunch of countries who we import more from than export. They do need us buying stuff,  a lot more stuff than we need to sell it. The 140 other countries we trade with under wto rules don't seem to have an issue with us leaving. 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

The tyranny I speak of is the tyranny of Thatcher in 1988 with the self-loading rifle ban and the re-classification of multi shot shotguns to s1, the tyranny of John Major in 1996 and the handgun ban, the tyranny of the Scotland air gun licensing regime, the tyranny of shooters having to pay for Doctor's letters. So I see our membership of the EU as allowing us to challenge such dictatorial legislation in the ECJ. After Brexit we won't have that protection. I lived through Thatcher and Blair. The thought of a future similar Parliament with us, the citizens, unprotected against a future gun ban with no obligation on a UK Parliament to pay any compensation (after we're out of the ECJ they can enact such a law) should worry us all as shooters.

Excuse me, the handgun ban was Tony Blair. John Major was forced to say he would consider a ban on certain CF pistols but only because Blair was campaigning  hard for a total ban. Major never enacted it. Blair did, the week after he got in. The handgun ban was Blair. I was there in the thick of it 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Vince Green

[enfieldspares]

So why did nobody in 1988 challenged the UK Gov't in the UK Courts that no compensation for RFDs was contrary to Magna Carta. Which...surely...if Magna Carta operated as has been stated someone would have done?  

 

 

 

[enfieldspares]

The handgun ban was John Major. On a whipped Tory vote in the House of Commons. Please don't give him a Get Out Of Jail on this. Google it.

It was introduced by a Conservative Home Secretary in a Conservative Government. It came into law in February 1997. When John Major was Prime Minister. Before the May 1997 General Election. That its provisions did not until after the May 1997 was always in the Act and was done so to give FAC and RFD holders that possessed the now to be banned handguns time to dispose of them or prepare to had them in. And the police time to organise the scheme.

People were quite lawfully shooting handguns for some time after John Major's Act was given Royal Assent. Because the actual ban was always intended to follow some months afterwards. That this meant that the hand in didn't take place until General Election doesn't make it Blair's law. It was John Major's.

Blair's law was the No2 Act that on banned those rimfire handguns that Major's Act had exempted if they were kept at proposed designated secure sites. Thus Major's ban was a de facto ban as many shooting clubs would not have been able to apply with the requirements that the Home Office would have imposed on them to be allowed to become such designated sites. Blair's No2 Act removed that exemption and, in so doing, made Major's discretionary compensation for rimfire handguns and ancilliaries now mandatory as they would be banned in law as well as (as they would have under Major's supposed exemption) in real terms.

[Uilleachan]

I think this populist surge will continue, dark greens and the espousers of the politics of grievance/envy, urged on by the tabloid press, will have the politicians ripping up the current farm payment agricultural subsidy structure and as a result the rural landscape will look rather different in 10 years.

Shooting isn't popular and an easy target for the vote hungry, I expect the countryside to become one big petting zoo for townies.  

[Vince Green]

8 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

The handgun ban was John Major. On a whipped Tory vote in the House of Commons. Please don't give him a Get Out Of Jail on this. Google it.

It was introduced by a Conservative Home Secretary in a Conservative Government. It came into law in February 1997. When John Major was Prime Minister. Before the May 1997 General Election. That its provisions did not until after the May 1997 was always in the Act and was done so to give FAC and RFD holders that possessed the now to be banned handguns time to dispose of them or prepare to had them in. And the police time to organise the scheme.

People were quite lawfully shooting handguns for some time after John Major's Act was given Royal Assent. Because the actual ban was always intended to follow some months afterwards. That this meant that the hand in didn't take place until General Election doesn't make it Blair's law. It was John Major's.

Blair's law was the No2 Act that on banned those rimfire handguns that Major's Act had exempted if they were kept at proposed designated secure sites. Thus Major's ban was a de facto ban as many shooting clubs would not have been able to apply with the requirements that the Home Office would have imposed on them to be allowed to become such designated sites. Blair's No2 Act removed that exemption and, in so doing, made Major's discretionary compensation for rimfire handguns and ancilliaries now mandatory as they would be banned in law as well as (as they would have under Major's supposed exemption) in real terms.

Yes exactly what I said, Blair banned ALL handguns. "The handgun ban" as we know it  was when ALL handguns were banned by Blair. Up till then there was a lifeline. And you have to remember it was Blair that was doing the campaigning when Major weakly bowed to pressure from Blair. Major had originally said he would wait for the recommendations of the enquiry.

Blair drove it 

[Gordon R]

enfieldspares is right - the EU will look after shooters' interests. I know their record in this area is non-existent, but I still agree with him.

[Dekers]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Yes exactly what I said, Blair banned ALL handguns. "The handgun ban" as we know it  was when ALL handguns were banned by Blair. Up till then there was a lifeline. And you have to remember it was Blair that was doing the campaigning when Major weakly bowed to pressure from Blair. Major had originally said he would wait for the recommendations of the enquiry.

Blair drove it 

Indeed it was, more so than Major, but the MEDIA was really doing all the campaigning, and the politicians simply jumped on the bandwagon thinking it would get them votes!

[Rewulf]

11 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

So why did nobody in 1988 challenged the UK Gov't in the UK Courts that no compensation for RFDs was contrary to Magna Carta. Which...surely...if Magna Carta operated as has been stated someone would have done?  

 

 

 

Im going to take a wild guess here.
You were an RFD in the aftermath of Hungerford, and the S/A CF  ban cost you plenty ?

If Im correct, then did you not appeal directly to the ECJ ? Or perhaps wave a copy of the Magna Carta in front of Parliament ?
Even if you did, you were wasting your time, nothing was going to stop some kind of ban coming, or indeed after Dunblane.
Shooters are a minority, and this isnt the US, get used to that.

The EU would have all private firearms ownership banned in double quick time, IF it had the power.
So its no good bleating about how they protect shooters, that is pure FANTASY.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Im going to take a wild guess here.
You were an RFD in the aftermath of Hungerford, and the S/A CF  ban cost you plenty ?

If Im correct, then did you not appeal directly to the ECJ ? Or perhaps wave a copy of the Magna Carta in front of Parliament ?
Even if you did, you were wasting your time, nothing was going to stop some kind of ban coming, or indeed after Dunblane.
Shooters are a minority, and this isnt the US, get used to that.

The EU would have all private firearms ownership banned in double quick time, IF it had the power.
So its no good bleating about how they protect shooters, that is pure FANTASY.

It's not enfieldspares that was saying the magna carter applied protection of some sort, neither is he saying that the EU protect's shooters. He was saying that the EU through the ECJ provides a further opportunity to challenge oppression from Governments for individuals that might be used in the cases he provided examples for. His point being that post brexit this situation will change for shooters with the opportunity removed, change for shooting being the subject of the op's original post. 

 

10 hours ago, Uilleachan said:

I think this populist surge will continue, dark greens and the espousers of the politics of grievance/envy, urged on by the tabloid press, will have the politicians ripping up the current farm payment agricultural subsidy structure and as a result the rural landscape will look rather different in 10 years.

Shooting isn't popular and an easy target for the vote hungry, I expect the countryside to become one big petting zoo for townies.  

 I can see some significant changes in the way that land asset is used in farming. I can't believe the current subsidy system will remain unchanged and i can see the financial position for farmers at the very least getting more competitive. I reckon that would be good for shooting in general with farmers wanting better pest control and looking for more diversified income streams (hunting payments). Maybe even large petting zoo's 

[Gordon R]

The EU has never looked after shooters - why would it start now?

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's not enfieldspares that was saying the magna carter applied protection of some sort, neither is he saying that the EU protect's shooters. He was saying that the EU through the ECJ provides a further opportunity to challenge oppression from Governments for individuals that might be used in the cases he provided examples for. His point being that post brexit this situation will change for shooters with the opportunity removed, change for shooting being the subject of the op's original post. 

 

I know he didnt say the Magna Carta applied protection, but he did say the EU provided 'protection'.
The fact it NEVER HAS provided any support or protection during the 'tyrannical' governments of the 80s and 90s seems lost on him also.
But if we cancel Brexit and stay in the comforting embrace of  Brussels, we can all continue to enjoy shooting as we do ??

Where do these people get these strange ideas ?

Light some incense , adopt the lotus position and murmur repeatedly'
'The EU is just a trading organisation for the good of all of Europes peoples' 
There now, its all gone away....

[oowee]

40 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I know he didnt say the Magna Carta applied protection, but he did say the EU provided 'protection'.
The fact it NEVER HAS provided any support or protection during the 'tyrannical' governments of the 80s and 90s seems lost on him also.
But if we cancel Brexit and stay in the comforting embrace of  Brussels, we can all continue to enjoy shooting as we do ??

Where do these people get these strange ideas ?

Light some incense , adopt the lotus position and murmur repeatedly'
'The EU is just a trading organisation for the good of all of Europes peoples' 
There now, its all gone away....

Are you OK?

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Are you OK?

I will be, as soon as we get ourselves extracted from the EU .

[Gordon R]

Quote

I will be, as soon as we get ourselves extracted from the EU .

I can't wait. Just what will the Remain people find to moan about? All those scaremongering skills going to waste.

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

the EU through the ECJ provides a further opportunity to challenge oppression from Governments for individuals that might be used in the cases he provided examples for. His point being that post brexit this situation will change for shooters with the opportunity removed, change for shooting being the subject of the op's original post. 

 

 

The ECJ is part of the problem, its not independent of the EU's political machinery 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Vince Green

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I can't wait. Just what will the Remain people find to moan about? All those scaremongering skills going to waste.

Sure there will be plenty to celebrate 

 

No seriously i was wondering about booking flights. I usually go to SA in May but wondering if the French air space will be closed. Thought even if it was there would be no change as they have been on strike the last two years so no change there. Not sure about currency but I pay in £ and i won't need many rand. Thing is i need to renew my passport and i was hoping to get one of the new ones rather than be stuck with the old type for the next ten years. 

[Gordon R]

I share your optimism - there will be plenty to celebrate when we get rid of the leeches.

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

No seriously i was wondering about booking flights. I usually go to SA in May but wondering if the French air space will be closed. Thought even if it was there would be no change as they have been on strike the last two years so no change there. Not sure about currency but I pay in £ and i won't need many rand. Thing is i need to renew my passport and i was hoping to get one of the new ones rather than be stuck with the old type for the next ten years. 

Are you serious ?
If French air space is closed to us, then our air space is closed to the whole of the EU, a situation about as likely as Junker staying sober for negotiations.

Dont worry about your new passport, plenty of time between March and May to get sorted ?
On the other hand, we are due for economic apocalypse around then arent we?  motorways become car parks ect.
So the country will probably grind to a halt and require an international aid mission to feed and clothe us, have you thought about buying a boat and sailing to Capetown ?