Airgun death this morning

[chrisjpainter]

25 minutes ago, 1066 said:

Personally I would like to see every school and scout troop have an airgun club and teach the kids safety and respect for firearms in a controlled manner.

Useful idea, particularly at scout groups. Not financially viable or necessary to make it so universally accessible, but as suggested earlier some kind of training or course to pass would help.  Education is the...er...silver bullet! 

[Scully]

3 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

Fatalities are rare, for sure (second since September last year). But it's not just about that is it? it's the swans, the deer, the cats, the foxes the cattle, the sheep etc that are being shot regularly. As I've said, it's not going to make a difference overnight. But if people can't buy an air rifle without a cert, and if people can't buy ammunition without a cert, eventually it would necessarily to lead to a decline, because only shooters who could prove genuine use would be owning one. EVENTUALLY far fewer idiots would have access to air rifles and the ammunition to shoot them.

I can see what you’re saying but it simply wouldn’t ( and won’t ) work like that. I have several air rifles and pistols and enough tins of pellets ( there are usually 500 pellets in each tin ) to see me out. If required I would probably license the ones I care for but could give away any or all of them tomorrow and no one would know.

There must be millions of air guns in circulation; how many people have been arrested never mind prosecuted for criminal use of an air gun? The comparative figures must be enormous.

All licensing of airguns will do is shut the door on those kids who have a genuine interest ( and cut off the most basic and common route to shooting sports for all ) while the idiots carry on regardless.

I could just about abide licensing if air rifle shooting was introduced to the prospectus in schools, but apart from private schools it ain’t going to happen. 

[English]

The tragedy here is that a family have lost their little boy? How and why it happened and if airguns should be licenced or not, is really a side issue? For the family concerned nothing can ever "fix" this for them, it will blight them for the rest of their lives and things will never be the same for them again. Please put aside your differences and other concerns and think about how this will pan out over the years ahead? Its a terrible thing for those close to it. Nearly 40 years ago my brother was killed by a drunk driver - my mum was never the same again. I saw my dad cry the first time ever. They were both changed by it - later in life seeing guys I had been at school with out with their siblings for a beer or a meal, going on holiday together, there are so many things - an extra pair of hands when moving or needing a lift  these poor people, their lives will be diminished immeasurably from now on in so many different ways!. 

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, English said:

The tragedy here is that a family have lost their little boy? How and why it happened and if airguns should be licenced or not, is really a side issue? For the family concerned nothing can ever "fix" this for them, it will blight them for the rest of their lives and things will never be the same for them again. Please put aside your differences and other concerns and think about how this will pan out over the years ahead? Its a terrible thing for those close to it. Nearly 40 years ago my brother was killed by a drunk driver - my mum was never the same again. I saw my dad cry the first time ever. They were both changed by it - later in life seeing guys I had been at school with out with their siblings for a beer or a meal, going on holiday together, there are so many things - an extra pair of hands when moving or needing a lift  these poor people, their lives will be diminished immeasurably from now on in so many different ways!. 

I couldn't agree more; like I said in my initial post; every parents worst nightmare is to lose a child. Having said that, there are those who believe licensing will end tragedies like this...it wont. All licensing will achieve is the curtailment of new blood into shooting, and that's it. Nothing more. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

What do you chaps think about the current moves to ban .50 high energy rifles,

For a government who never battered an eyelid doing it they won't for licensing airguns either.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it isn't in the pipeline as I type, just a matter of time IMO...

 

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, English said:

The tragedy here is that a family have lost their little boy? How and why it happened and if airguns should be licenced or not, is really a side issue? For the family concerned nothing can ever "fix" this for them, it will blight them for the rest of their lives and things will never be the same for them again. Please put aside your differences and other concerns and think about how this will pan out over the years ahead? Its a terrible thing for those close to it. Nearly 40 years ago my brother was killed by a drunk driver - my mum was never the same again. I saw my dad cry the first time ever. They were both changed by it - later in life seeing guys I had been at school with out with their siblings for a beer or a meal, going on holiday together, there are so many things - an extra pair of hands when moving or needing a lift  these poor people, their lives will be diminished immeasurably from now on in so many different ways!. 

That sounds awful and obviously not something most of us would consider

, I was asked when I went for the snip what would i do if something happened to one of my kids and i couldn't have more!!! I said i hoped it would never happen and I'd be gutted if it did.

The knee jerk reaction is to say licence air guns, and I'm sure they will at some point, but this accident could still have happened, my first thought when I first heard of this story was some idot had shot a kid in the park or something like that. Not that a kid was round at his Grandad's enjoying himself. The family must be in bits.

[Longbower]

Your not supposed to be at your child's funeral , they are supposed to be at yours . The family deserve our deepest condolences .

Knives in the knife drawer , Washing machine liquid tabs, etc etc , all need to be kept away from little fingers . And that includes airguns.

My friend who works at the RSPCA , see's quite a few animals with pellet wounds , but many many more with little plastic bolts shot from 

pistol crossbows.

When i got my first Air rifle , I  had to go to the Lymm Police Station, I paid 50p or something like that , and i got a piece of paper from a duplicate 

book , with my name address , date and description of the rifle on it . It was a long time ago , so  I cant remember why ?

 

[Walker570]

On 27/07/2018 at 15:09, bruno22rf said:

Absolute tragedy but to call for Airguns to be licensed is pointless - someone on this forum recently commented that you cannot legislate against stupidity and few more sensible words have been spoken. Michael Ryan (Hungerford), Thomas Hamilton(Dunblane) and Derrick Bird (Cumbria) all held the weapons that they used legally so they may as well have carried a voucher for 50% off a Big Mac meal for all the protection that their ticket offered their victims.

Absolutely ...licensing for firearms was not brought in to make people safer, but to have the Government know where guns were...savvy??

As of yet and until the Coroners Inquest we will not know if this young lad accidentally shot himself maybe, so 'supposing' is pointless. As said above, there are those with licenses out there even today who have passed police inspection but who should not be allowed to have any sort of gun, believe me, I have been in the presence of one or two... shudder ... The three mentioned above had all been 'passed' by the police as stable upright folk although in the case of Hamilton, the police officers on the street, who made the enquiry into him said he should not have a license but the senior police officer was know to have said, I know this man better than most, and issued the license. 

A piece of paper will not solve stupidity or simple careless irresponsible handling/use unfortunately proved many times.

[1066]

10 hours ago, Longbower said:

 

When i got my first Air rifle , I  had to go to the Lymm Police Station, I paid 50p or something like that , and i got a piece of paper from a duplicate 

book , with my name address , date and description of the rifle on it . It was a long time ago , so  I cant remember why ?

 

 

Are you getting this mixed up with a shotgun certificate (pre-1968)?

[243deer]

My heartfelt condolences to the folk involved.

There will always be x number of injuries and deaths per x number of firearms of whatever type. 

Licensing will certainly reduce the number held legally and so reduce, but not of course, eradicate, the number of injuries/deaths so it is difficult to argue against.

I am going to try though  

There are many and varied unlicensed things in our lives that cause death and injury,  bicycles, saucepans holding deep fat, kitchen knives, carbon roach poles in fishing, chain saws - I am sure that you can all think of examples.

In one very obvious case licensing appears to have almost no effect on avoidable injuries and deaths, vehicle licences.

Education and common sense prevent more injuries and deaths on a daily basis than licensing ever has or ever will do.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, 243deer said:

My heartfelt condolences to the folk involved.

There will always be x number of injuries and deaths per x number of firearms of whatever type. 

Licensing will certainly reduce the number held legally and so reduce, but not of course, eradicate, the number of injuries/deaths so it is difficult to argue against.

I am going to try though  

There are many and varied unlicensed things in our lives that cause death and injury,  bicycles, saucepans holding deep fat, kitchen knives, carbon roach poles in fishing, chain saws - I am sure that you can all think of examples.

In one very obvious case licensing appears to have almost no effect on avoidable injuries and deaths, vehicle licences.

Education and common sense prevent more injuries and deaths on a daily basis than licensing ever has or ever will do.

But will it? Who knows how many air rifles/pistols there are out there? All licensing will do is cause those who want to be legit' to buy a license; those who don't care wont. Then figures can stipulate exactly how many legally owned airguns there are in the UK, which will more than likely be a fraction of those in circulation. Those who don't care will carry on regardless. 

[Longbower]

We don't know the circumstances , only the outcome . Jumping to conclusions won't help .

It may however remind us to be always responsible , and vigilant with our weapons.

[Mice!]

I read an article in Saturdays paper, it gave more family details but no more information.

The little boy was a twin at his great grand parents house, with the rest of his family remembering his uncle who had died, sad doesn't begin to cover it.

But if this had been a traffic accident it wouldn't have made the national news, wrong but there you are.

[243deer]

19 hours ago, Scully said:

But will it? Who knows how many air rifles/pistols there are out there? All licensing will do is cause those who want to be legit' to buy a license; those who don't care wont. Then figures can stipulate exactly how many legally owned airguns there are in the UK, which will more than likely be a fraction of those in circulation. Those who don't care will carry on regardless. 

I possibly did not make myself entirely clear. If licensing is introduced there will be a number of folk who do not wish to hold an illegal weapon and cannot be bothered to licence so will probably sell to a dealer or if it is an old knackered weapon hand it in for disposal, therefore it will reduce the number of weapons in circulation to a greater or lesser extent and so must have some (unquantifiable) impact on the number of deaths/injuries. We are probably talking thousandths here and statistics so not at all significant but I can see it being used as an argument by politicians and indeed, as we have seen, some shooters, for action. 

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, 243deer said:

I possibly did not make myself entirely clear. If licensing is introduced there will be a number of folk who do not wish to hold an illegal weapon and cannot be bothered to licence so will probably sell to a dealer or if it is an old knackered weapon hand it in for disposal, therefore it will reduce the number of weapons in circulation to a greater or lesser extent and so must have some (unquantifiable) impact on the number of deaths/injuries. We are probably talking thousandths here and statistics so not at all significant but I can see it being used as an argument by politicians and indeed, as we have seen, some shooters, for action. 

But that's the thing; I doubt dealers will want them. Licensing will create a significantly reduced market, so why would they? I have a couple of old, pretty worthless springers; I wont be handing anything in. 

You're right, it will be used as an argument by authorities, but my initial point stands, it wont make a jot of difference. 

We have to remember, that like all firearms legislation, it has nothing to do with safety but everything to do with politics. 

[Penelope]

On 27/07/2018 at 14:25, Jaymo said:

It would if the **** wasn’t deemed fit to own one......

But who would know who's got one, there must be hundreds of thousands out there already.

[Jaymo]

17 minutes ago, Penelope said:

But who would know who's got one, there must be hundreds of thousands out there already.

There are, but if the law allows the confiscation of an unlicensed air gun when say they are searching a premise then at least that removes a few.

Think back to the 87 semi auto and large capacity shotgun restrictions— How many pump action shotguns were probably not declared/handed in? But I bet now of those illegally held that a lot have been surrendered at an amnesty or taken out of circulation.

what did they say about ‘Rome and a day’?

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Jaymo said:

There are, but if the law allows the confiscation of an unlicensed air gun when say they are searching a premise then at least that removes a few.

Think back to the 87 semi auto and large capacity shotgun restrictions— How many pump action shotguns were probably not declared/handed in? But I bet now of those illegally held that a lot have been surrendered at an amnesty or taken out of circulation.

what did they say about ‘Rome and a day’?

But you're just guessing. I'll admit many could have been handed in subsequently by relatives as owners die, but no one knows how many went underground in the first place. The fact that they still turn up at the odd amnesty over 30 years later testifies to this, and no one can tell which have been used in crime either. Not exactly what the bureaucrats had in mind and it's anything but effective.

Like I said, they can license the hell out of airguns, but it wont stop swans, deer, cats and kiddies from being shot with them, but each time they are, it's another nail.

[Jaymo]

Scully

I fully realise the implications and vagueness of the effectiveness of licensing them- but if it stops ‘new oiks ‘ purchasing then hopefully the current swan killers as you like to refer will have either grown up or moved on. 

 

[Scully]

If only. 

[Jaymo]

Can but hope

[Walker570]

Pie in the sky.

[Mice!]

Where i grew up folk would brick ducklings and swans after throwing in bread, occasionally shoot at peoples windows with air rifle or catapults, maybe try out their new crossbow on someone's cat, these people won't get a license so for that reason you probably need to licence the ammo sales.

Accidents unfortunately are just that.

[Scully]

21 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Pie in the sky.

Quite.