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Airgun death this morning

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3 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Absolute tragedy but to call for Airguns to be licensed is pointless - someone on this forum recently commented that you cannot legislate against stupidity and few more sensible words have been spoken. Michael Ryan (Hungerford), Thomas Hamilton(Dunblane) and Derrick Bird (Cumbria) all held the weapons that they used legally so they may as well have carried a 50% off a Big Mac meal for all the protection that their ticket offered their victims.

I take your point. But you've named three mass shootings in 31 years. There have been a fair few other shootings with licensed guns, but still those are drastically low numbers. In one three month period in 2016, West Midlands armed Police alone were called out to 80 incidents involving air guns. Licensing would cut down incidents massively. It's not going to happen overnight. obviously it's going to take a while for the illegal weapons to be taken out of circulation, but if new ones aren't sold without certificates and ammunition can't be bought without certificates, eventually you'll make the illegal ones pointless anyway.

 

4 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the law already state that an airgun should be stored safely so as to prevent under 18s from gaining unauthorised access.

Er...kind of. The specific line is that owners 'must  take reasonable precautions' to make sure unauthorised people can't use it. Unfortunately it doesn't say what that specifically means! Mine's treated in exactly the same way as an FAC weapon, but that's beyond what's often regarded as acceptable. 

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6 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Absolute tragedy but to call for Airguns to be licensed is pointless - someone on this forum recently commented that you cannot legislate against stupidity and few more sensible words have been spoken. Michael Ryan (Hungerford), Thomas Hamilton(Dunblane) and Derrick Bird (Cumbria) all held the weapons that they used legally so they may as well have carried a voucher for 50% off a Big Mac meal for all the protection that their ticket offered their victims.

Yes, but three incidences compared to weekly reporting of shooting of cats/pets/deer /livestock or property vandalism with an Airgun then hints pale into insignificance.

Indeed the type of shootings carried out by said individuals shaped our current licensing system and whilst not perfect, it’s an improvement but then there are still many of us moaning about having to pay for GP/ Medical reports! Well you damn well should pay, it’s your choice to shoot and if it requires a GP report then pay it or don’t bleat on that you can’t get an appointment at your Doctors surgery- the GP is probably sat there writing reports instead of freeing up appointments ( unless you think they should write them in their free time?).

I shoot abroad, my annual membership is high and I’m also required to pay to visit my Doctor for him to stamp up my licence- none of my fellow shooters ever complain about it- just think we’re a nation of whiners and moaners who expect everything for nothing.

Before you say it- no I’m not on my period, just fed up of hypocrisy of many shooters.

 

Oh, and what pillock leaves an airgun cocked and loaded? ***, grandkids visiting should trigger some thought at least

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13 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

As to the last bit, it seems like you're not the sort of person for whom owning an air rifle would be either pointless or risky. Unless you don't have permissions, aren't a member of a club and so don't actually need one!  

For a good few years i didn't shoot very much, the odd rat for people, I've never been a member of a club and for a time had no permissions. My gun was tucked away, now I'm shooting again because i still had my rifle.

I'm not sure i would have gone out and bought all the gear again starting from scratch?

The sort of people who can shoot a cat or swan couldn't give a monkeys about a licence.

I think your right when you said licence ammunition, but even then how many pellets do most people have.

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Best way to go would perhaps to automatically enable shooters with FAC or SGC to own an Airgun - otherwise a separate ticket but with automatic issue upon completing a basic safety course at your local range? 

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1 minute ago, Mice! said:

For a good few years i didn't shoot very much, the odd rat for people, I've never been a member of a club and for a time had no permissions. My gun was tucked away, now I'm shooting again because i still had my rifle.

I'm not sure i would have gone out and bought all the gear again starting from scratch?

The sort of people who can shoot a cat or swan couldn't give a monkeys about a licence.

I think your right when you said licence ammunition, but even then how many pellets do most people have.

A Tin of 500, a lot I know but once their supply is exhausted and an inability to purchase more then things would reduce.

Takes time I know, but Rome and ‘days’ springs to mind.

Problem is you that with unlicensed Airguns, you can’t legislate for the muppets, any hurdles placed in their way must surely be a good thing

Just now, bruno22rf said:

Best way to go would perhaps to automatically enable shooters with FAC or SGC to own an Airgun - otherwise a separate ticket but with automatic issue upon completing a basic safety course at your local range? 

Good logic, but still needs an additional stage I think.......

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1 minute ago, Mice! said:

For a good few years i didn't shoot very much, the odd rat for people, I've never been a member of a club and for a time had no permissions. My gun was tucked away, now I'm shooting again because i still had my rifle.

I'm not sure i would have gone out and bought all the gear again starting from scratch?

The sort of people who can shoot a cat or swan couldn't give a monkeys about a licence.

I think your right when you said licence ammunition, but even then how many pellets do most people have.

Yeah. it'd take time. a lot of time, but gradually you'd have a drastic reduction in incidents, and that can only be a good thing. you'd never get rid of every incident. However if in 10 years time you've cut out 90% of  the shot cats, livestock, deer, property and children that you have now, that's worth doing something. 

 

1 minute ago, bruno22rf said:

Best way to go would perhaps to automatically enable shooters with FAC or SGC to own an Airgun - otherwise a separate ticket but with automatic issue upon completing a basic safety course at your local range? 

This is what I'd do. It's daft to request people who own a .303 centre fire to have yet another bit of paper for a sub 12 air rifle! Nice idea of the course too. 

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5 minutes ago, Mice! said:

The sort of people who can shoot a cat or swan couldn't give a monkeys about a licence.

Of course they dont, but if caught in posession they would then be subject to the full force of the law as we all would be if in possession of an unlicense shotgun.

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2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

States that it is an offence. Admittedly this is just a guidelines leaflet and not the actual legislation.

Yeah, but then gives vague principles as to what 'reasonable precautions' include. Words like 'in many cases it will be sufficient...' aren't really helpful in my opinion. I'd prefer to see unequivocal requirements: locked cabinet, keys only available to authorised user, in a secure premise (i.e. not a garage or a caravan...)

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1 hour ago, miroku mk70 said:

I agree entirely. Theres a lot of people here militantly against licensing. I think wrongly and selfishly... licensing would cut down this kind of tragic story - plus the damaging 'cat shooting' type stories that local papers love so much if irresponsible idiots didn't have access.

Has licensing and properly securing your shotgun or fac really cut down your civil liberties? It has for sure cut down on accidents of this type. Maybe if this particular airgun had been secured a pair of parents wouldnt now be facing their worst nightmare after their son had visited someone elses house to play... as a parent it makes me feel sick to think of it.

********.  Your sgc is a piece of paper. Do you leave your 12g lying around for kids to play with?

Exactly ?

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3 minutes ago, miroku mk70 said:

Of course they dont, but if caught in posession they would then be subject to the full force of the law as we all would be if in possession of an unlicense shotgun.

They already would be for armed trespass, problem is they don't get caught, I'm expecting something to change, i bought a cabinet as my kids are getting older so friends come around, which means curious fingers.

I don't think going to a range is the way to go, straight away your going to loose anyone wanting to plink in there garden with the kids?

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14 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Best way to go would perhaps to automatically enable shooters with FAC or SGC to own an Airgun - otherwise a separate ticket but with automatic issue upon completing a basic safety course at your local range? 

This ?

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27 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

It might not have done. But you didn't ask me what WOULD have prevented this, you asked me how a license system COULD have prevented it

I think I did? previously I posted "under what circumstances WOULD a piece of paper prevent someone being shot" it was you who posted how you thought a licensing system COULD have prevented it!

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SORRY FOR THE LITTLIN AND HIS FAMILY.LICENCE YES. but to trust the government with any new laws a lot will see it as the thin edge of a wedge .The law won't change the mindset of a nutter.but I agree it could filter out some .But many  just don't trust H.M.G. to use the law for what it will be intended for they think it will be another way for the police to reduce legal gun ownership.

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I am at a loss as to what reasons some people are against licensing. Saying it wont make a difference is no argument because of course it will. Airguns should imo be licensed exactly the same way as shotguns. Unsavoury folk will be put off the hassle of applying, decent folk will go through the process and eventually "a lot" of illegally held guns will be taken off the street much the same as would have happened when shotguns became licensed. Yes criminals still have guns but that is nothing to do with licensing.

As an aside anyone who leaves any gun open to access by children or indeed adults is a total idiot. My air rifles are locked away and have been for thirty odd years since i got my sgc.

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5 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I think I did? previously I posted "under what circumstances WOULD a piece of paper prevent someone being shot" it was you who posted how you thought a licensing system COULD have prevented it!

No, you're right. Apologies. I think my argument still stands. If the shooter was unable to have a gun because of licensing, then they wouldn't have been able to shoot someone. But, we're still very short on details. 

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Personally I think that licencing will have a fairly dramatic impact on the grass roots of sport. At the moment this level of the sport is easily accessible and an intro to shooting for many youngsters. Its all very well us who have licences pushing for this but do we A) remember how we started in the sport in most cases b) consider if we would have continued if you had to pay £80 for the privilege if you were interested. 

Slap a licence on it and people will not try shooting as a starter and then progress onto other disciplines of the sport. The Scottish example is a great showing of how to put in an unworkable and expensive system that penalises the law abiding and does nothing to discourage criminals.

You haven't been able to own a handgun in the UK since 1997 I bet the types having a shoot out with police this morning were using them...………. 

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This debate blew up (forgive the pun!) as a result of the reported tragic accident with an airgun, it developed into a call, from some to licence air guns, citing illegal acts and unsafe use of air guns to bolster that call............which is irrelevant to the original thread!

My comments were posted regarding the futility of issuing a piece of paper as a way of preventing such accidents happening in the future!.....criminal or negligent use of airguns is another matter!..........One of enforcing the law..........not licensing!

Edited by panoma1

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4 minutes ago, Zetter said:

Personally I think that licencing will have a fairly dramatic impact on the grass roots of sport. At the moment this level of the sport is easily accessible and an intro to shooting for many youngsters. Its all very well us who have licences pushing for this but do we A) remember how we started in the sport in most cases b) consider if we would have continued if you had to pay £80 for the privilege if you were interested. 

Slap a licence on it and people will not try shooting as a starter and then progress onto other disciplines of the sport. The Scottish example is a great showing of how to put in an unworkable and expensive system that penalises the law abiding and does nothing to discourage criminals.

You haven't been able to own a handgun in the UK since 1997 I bet the types having a shoot out with police this morning were using them...………. 

Irrelevant.

The point is that licensing will carry a degree of responsibility and will go a long way to ensuring people at least secure and handle guns in a responsible manner. Obviously we have no details of this particular incident but if we presume the gun was not secured and that it was either loaded or able to be then that would "probably" not have happened as the license holder would have abided by the law and had it secured in the same way as sgc holders do with there guns .

As for grass roots blah blah blah, there would be nothing to stop someone joining a club and progressing from there or if lets say they had land for pest control then apply for a licence abide by the rules and crack on

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Sorry IPS because driving tests and insurance  prevent road deaths by uninsured and idiot drivers currently. 

It appears a lot of the call for licencing comes from people who have their certificates for shotguns and rifles so its im all right jack as im doing this anyway. Sort of attitude that lead to the pistol ban in 97

 

Edited by Zetter

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3 minutes ago, ips said:

As for grass roots blah blah blah, there would be nothing to stop someone joining a club and progressing from there or if lets say they had land for pest control then apply for a licence abide by the rules and crack on

problem with that is i started in my neighbours garden, him and my dad me leaning on a dustbin struggling with a full size air gun at around age 12ish, there would never have been money for a club, licence, cabinet. I think i was 15 or 16 when i got my own rifle.

This won't happen if airgun ownership changes, which is what seems to have happened in Scotland.

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There are many ways to get killed before your time and all of them tragic of course. We can't legislate for everything and wrap ourselves in cotton wool. It's a balance of what is reasonable against what is disproportionate. What a miserable world it would be if we try to legislate out risk. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Zetter said:

Sorry IPS because driving tests and insurance  prevent road deaths by uninsured and idiot drivers currently. 

It appears a lot of the call for licencing comes from people who have their certificates for shotguns and rifles so its im all right jack as im doing this anyway. Sort of attitude that lead to the pistol ban in 97

 

Nope, I do believe other events lead to that! Somewhat beyond our control.

All uninsured drivers should be treated in a much harsher way than they currently are and their vehicle crushed with no recourse or opportunity to regain it.

Then to buy another car they need to prove they have insurance first!

 

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18 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Nope, I do believe other events lead to that! Somewhat beyond our control.

All uninsured drivers should be treated in a much harsher way than they currently are and their vehicle crushed with no recourse or opportunity to regain it.

Then to buy another car they need to prove they have insurance first!

 

?

The simple fact is that the uk have laws about many things and yet the courts seem to dish out the most lenient of sentences. I totally agree with the above analogy

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This has popped up on one of my groups today, obviously this has been done in jest but this is part of the problem, air guns aren't seen as dangerous by many people.

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