the Hungerford Massacre

[andrewluke]

on now(9pm) ch11(Pick)

[Pigeon Shredder.]

Why oh why would they put this tragic documentary on again, and even worse why would you publicise it.

[andrewluke]

Just now, Pigeon Shredder. said:

Why oh why would they put this tragic documentary on again, and even worse why would you publicise it.

you dont have to watch it???

[Pigeon Shredder.]

Just now, andrewluke said:

you dont have to watch it???

And you don't have to publicise it.

[andrewluke]

1 minute ago, Pigeon Shredder. said:

And you don't have to publicise it.

but i wanted to,you can watch it if you want

[Pigeon Shredder.]

Just now, andrewluke said:

but i wanted to,you can watch it if you want

Stick to eBay, it's what you do best?

[Graham M]

Don't need to watch it...........I remember it. That monster Ryan killed 16 people and injured another 17 all in the space of an hour and a half, whilst the police tried to get an armed response squad that was stationed some 40 MILES away, before killing himself.

 

[Dekers]

….and purely by coincidence I was in earshot...we just didn't have a clue what was going on!

It is impossible to convey the shock!

[Mungler]

I think historic documentaries are important and they are part of (factual) history which cannot be ignored.

It is also thought provoking and promotes healthy debate; for example, as much as we all like Shooting what’s the straw poll on whether anyone needs an AK47 with armour piercing rounds?

[ordnance]

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I think historic documentaries are important and they are part of (factual) history which cannot be ignored.

It is also thought provoking and promotes healthy debate; for example, as much as we all like Shooting what’s the straw poll on whether anyone needs an AK47 with armour piercing rounds?

If you want to go down that road, of all the people that have firearms shotguns etc how many really need them. 

[Walker570]

Don't need to watch as I remember it well.  Back then all force firearms units where on demand from regular officers where ever they may be.  Operational units did not come into force until much later.  I remember discussing what our reaction time would have been when on our next training day and ..yes... it was over an hour.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

If you want to go down that road, of all the people that have firearms shotguns etc how many really need them. 

I need a rifle to shoot a deer but I don’t need an AK47 with armour piercing ammo etc.

[Harnser]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

If you want to go down that road, of all the people that have firearms shotguns etc how many really need them. 

The trouble is there are lots of people who have tickets and have legal guns on them and hardly ever shoot them . Gun nuts . This was more prevalent when we had hand guns . Lots of gun nuts in those days . The club that I belonged to reckoned that less than half the membership actually shot their hand guns on the range .  There is no need for any body in this country needing an assault rifle or any Calibre larger than 30 calibre . Unless they go abroad to shoot big dangerous game . 

Harnser

[Walker570]

Although I do partially agree with you Harnser I have to take issue on calibre.  I see no difference between a 308/3006 and an 8x57 or even a 375H&H, I have a 375JDJ (444 cases necked down) which does a good job on deer as well as wild boar and I had a friend who shot a 444 Marlin lever action which did an excellent job on fallow. Does a 300 Holland & Holland fit your parameters ? Excellent cartridge rarely seen today because it isn't COOL any more.    It is the mind set that worries me and I do wonder sometimes why someone wants a military style rifle ..even air rifles these days .... is it to boost their ego?   I don't know

[Houseplant]

10 hours ago, Mungler said:

I need a rifle to shoot a deer but I don’t need an AK47 with armour piercing ammo etc.

Do you NEED to shoot a deer though? I'm just playing devils advocate. Like many people I don't need to shoot any animals or targets, or indeed own any guns. I should imagine that very few do. 

[Dekers]

It is true that many here don't NEED a firearm of any sort but enjoy a bit of target work or bunny bashing.    But why shouldn't people have them if they want?   My daughter has just used a AK47 in Vietnam and has the biggest grin you can imagine, whats wrong with that?

Target would certainly come under want rather than need, rifle, pistol and shotgun, but as Secretary of my club I am obliged to advise the police of any member who has not shot for a year!

With regards field work I can't think of many situations where military style Automatic or Semi Automatic rifles are required.  Pistols are ideal/useful in certain field events but we have suffered from legislation following 2 major shooting events.

Just the same, all you have to do is look at the figures to see that gun crime has continued since the likes of Hungerford and Dunblane etc.  These were terrible events without any doubt but once again the main issue was not addressed and legal gun owners were penalised.

The vast majority of gun crime in the UK is from illegally held firearms, not legally held.

[Doggone]

30 minutes ago, Houseplant said:

Do you NEED to shoot a deer though? I'm just playing devils advocate. Like many people I don't need to shoot any animals or targets, or indeed own any guns. I should imagine that very few do. 

No one needs to shoot anything, unless it's part of your job. But you do need a gun if you want to shoot anything that it's legal to do so. Nowhere on the application does it ask if you need to shoot a deer or anything else

Andy

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Dekers said:

It is true that many here don't NEED a firearm of any sort but enjoy a bit of target work or bunny bashing.    But why shouldn't people have them if they want?   My daughter has just used a AK47 in Vietnam and has the biggest grin you can imagine, whats wrong with that?

Target would certainly come under want rather than need, rifle, pistol and shotgun, but as Secretary of my club I am obliged to advise the police of any member who has not shot for a year!

With regards field work I can't think of many situations where military style Automatic or Semi Automatic rifles are required.  Pistols are ideal/useful in certain field events but we have suffered from legislation following 2 major shooting events.

Just the same, all you have to do is look at the figures to see that gun crime has continued since the likes of Hungerford and Dunblane etc.  These were terrible events without any doubt but once again the main issue was not addressed and legal gun owners were penalised.

The vast majority of gun crime in the UK is from illegally held firearms, not legally held.

A mate also did this when he was in Vietnam; looks great fun. Sadly we aren't even allowed to do this under supervision in a controlled environment. 

Robert Bucknall said his Armalite was the best foxing rifle he ever owned. 

[Graham M]

I think we are now starting to argue amongst ourselves about who should be able to own what. Just the sort of thing that the antis love to hear.

I own a .243 for both deer and fox............so why do I need a .223 or a .308?? If we are thinking along these lines how long is it before the police start to ask the same question.

I see people at the range with these "Black guns" shooting FMJ..........what's wrong with that???

 

[Mungler]

It’s about how we as shooters present ourselves to the rest of the country, how the rest of the country see us, how we think the rest of the country see us and being entirely realistic and winning the battles you can.

I’m sure that letting rip a full mag of ammo from an AK47 into a wheel barrow is enormous fun, but applying the above I am realistic enough to know it’s never going to happen in the UK and I also know that any argument I make about how I should have the free choice to have an AK47 would demonstrate a massive lack of self awareness on my part.

[Dougy]

I shoot on ranges occasionally to test my ability and test new home loads if I need to also to check zero and drops at different ranges. This gives me the ability to hopefully hit my target quarry and kill cleanly.

That's my reason for using ranges, now some of the people I see on the odd ranges seem to me out of touch with the world of shooting outside their rifle club. Allot of ignorance regarding holding a firearm and using it on open land. Some I've spoke to are gobsmacked that I shoot outside of a range. Turn up in full cammo or all in black combats, even see the odd one dressed up like the guy off American sniper together with desert boots.

 

But back on topic we should not forget these nutters, but more so not forget the people and family's they destroyed. 

 

[Graham M]

22 minutes ago, Dougy said:

I shoot on ranges occasionally to test my ability and test new home loads if I need to also to check zero and drops at different ranges. This gives me the ability to hopefully hit my target quarry and kill cleanly.

That's my reason for using ranges, now some of the people I see on the odd ranges seem to me out of touch with the world of shooting outside their rifle club. Allot of ignorance regarding holding a firearm and using it on open land. Some I've spoke to are gobsmacked that I shoot outside of a range. Turn up in full cammo or all in black combats, even see the odd one dressed up like the guy off American sniper together with desert boots.

 

But back on topic we should not forget these nutters, but more so not forget the people and family's they destroyed. 

 

Where can I get those from.

Joking apart , yes we do see some of those, but not that many.

Also a lot of people don't remember that one of Ryan's victims was his own mother who he shot several times in the stomach and then twice in the back as she lay on the floor.

Makes for grim reading.............

Quote

 

At around 12:45, Ryan was seen at his home in South View, Hungerford. He loaded his car with his weapons and attempted to drive away, but the car would not start. He then fired four shots into the right side of the car. Neighbours reported seeing him agitatedly moving between the house and the car before he returned indoors and shot and killed the family dog or dogs (accounts disagree on whether there were one or two dogs in the house). Ryan then doused his home with the petrol he had bought earlier in the day and set his house alight. The fire subsequently destroyed three surrounding properties. Ryan then removed the three guns from the boot of his car and shot and killed Roland and Sheila Mason, who were in the back garden of their house: Roland was shot six times and Sheila once in the head.

Ryan walked towards the town's common, critically injuring two more people; Marjorie Jackson was shot once in the lower back as she watched Ryan from the window of her living room and 14-year-old Lisa Mildenhall four times in both legs and abdomen as she stood outside her home. Mildenhall later recalled that Ryan smiled at her before crouching and shooting. Mildenhall was treated in a nearby home and survived. Meanwhile, Jackson pulled 77-year-old Dorothy Smith into her home as she rebuked Ryan for making noise. Jackson first called 999 before telephoning George White, a colleague of her husband Ivor Jackson. She informed White that she had been injured. Her husband insisted on returning home and White offered to drive him. Jackson survived; Smith was uninjured.

On the footpath towards the common, Ryan encountered a family walking their dog. Upon seeing Ryan with his weapons, 51-year-old Kenneth Clements raised his arms in a gesture of surrender, diverting Ryan's attention as Clement's family climbed over a wall and ran to safety. Ryan ignored the gesture and shot Clements once at close range in the chest, killing him instantly. He fell to the ground still clutching the lead of his dog. Looping back to South View, Ryan fired 23 rounds at PC Roger Brereton, a police officer who had just arrived at the scene in response to reports of gunfire. Brereton was hit four times in his chest:  his Vauxhall Senator veered and crashed into a telephone pole. He died sitting in his patrol car, radioing to his colleagues that he had been shot. Ryan next turned his weapons on Linda Chapman and her teenage daughter, Alison, who had turned onto South View moments after Brereton was shot. Ryan fired 11 rounds from his semi-automatic into their Volvo360; the bullets travelled through the bonnet of the car, hitting and critically wounding Alison in her right thigh. Ryan also shot through the windscreen, hitting Linda with glass and a bullet in the left shoulder. As Ryan reloaded his weapons, Linda reversed, exited South View and drove to the local doctor. A bullet was subsequently found lodged at the base of Alison's spine; during an operation to remove it, surgeons decided that the risk of paralysis was too great, and the bullet was left in place.

After the Chapmans had driven away from South View, George White's Toyota Crown  drove towards Ryan; Ivor Jackson was in the passenger seat. Ryan opened fire with his Type 56, killing White with a single shot to the head and leaving Jackson severely injured in his head and chest. White's Toyota crashed into the rear of Brereton's police car. Jackson feigned death and hoped that Ryan would not move in for a closer look.

Ryan moved along Fairview Road, killing Abdul Rahman Khan while he was mowing his lawn. Further along the road he wounded his next door neighbour, Alan Lepetit, who had helped build Ryan's gun display unit. He then shot at an ambulance which had just arrived, shattering the window and injuring paramedic Hazel Haslett, who sped away before Ryan was able to fire at her and her colleague again.

Ryan shot at windows and at people who appeared on the street. Ryan's mother, Dorothy, then drove into South View and was confronted by her burning house, her armed son, and the dead and injured strewn along the street. Ivor Jackson, who was still slumped in White's Toyota, heard Dorothy open the door of the car and say, "Oh, Ivor..." before attempting in vain to reason with her son. Ryan shot her in her abdomen and legs before firing two fatal shots into her back as she lay on the ground. Ryan then wounded Betty Tolladay, who had stepped out of her house to admonish Ryan for making noise, as she had assumed he was shooting at paper targets in the woods. Ryan then ran towards Hungerford Common.

The police were now informed of the situation but the evacuation plan was not fully effective. Ryan's movements were tracked via police helicopter almost an hour after he set his home alight, but this was hampered by media helicopters and journalists responding to reports of the attacks. A single police officer, who observed Ryan, recommended that armed police be used, as the weapons he saw in Ryan's possession were beyond the capabilities of Hungerford police station's meagre firearms locker

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Graham M

[Graham M]

Absolutely horrific. Can you wonder why some people dislike shooting and shooters.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Graham M

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

It’s about how we as shooters present ourselves to the rest of the country, how the rest of the country see us, how we think the rest of the country see us and being entirely realistic and winning the battles you can.

I’m sure that letting rip a full mag of ammo from an AK47 into a wheel barrow is enormous fun, but applying the above I am realistic enough to know it’s never going to happen in the UK and I also know that any argument I make about how I should have the free choice to have an AK47 would demonstrate a massive lack of self awareness on my part.

I knew it was going to get round to this, so I'll stick my two pennarth worth in before it's locked, or completely deleted for what ever reason the airgun licensing thread was. I really really really don't care how the rest of the country see us; if you're shooting live quarry, then there are those who regard it as fine, but equally there are those who regard it as killing for fun; the fact being none of us NEED to do it, we do it because we get enjoyment from it. You can dress it up anyway you choose, and deceive yourself as much as you want, but that's why you're doing it....for leisure. I don't think anyone who shoots any living creature for 'sport' is in any position to criticise anyone who merely wants to shoot targets; whether it's wheelbarrows or paper bullseyes. 

Those of us who shoot live quarry as a leisure activity couldn't do anything to appease those who just can't conceive that there are people amongst us capable of such things. I really really couldn't care less what they think. 

I'm all for winning the battles I can, but most shooters seem to regard those of us most likely to let rip with a full mag' into a wheelbarrow as some kind of threat, but there's nothing to stop me doing that with my self loader or pump, but strangely it's something I've never done.  Regardless of whether it shows a massive lack of self awareness ( which I dispute ) on my part, I'd still argue, as someone who has been deemed fit to own S1 firearms, that I should therefore be deemed fit to choose an AK47 if I so wished. The fact I don't wish to own one is neither here nor there. I wasn't anymore responsible for the deaths of those at Hungerford than I was for those at Dunblane, yet I was made to feel so by association, by the general public, the media, the politicians, the police and yes, fellow shooters who regarded us types as Walts.  I really really couldn't care less what the general public think of me. 

Following the shootings in Cumbria, we were very very lucky to survive, but those amongst us who for some implausible reason, appear to be claiming the moral high ground over others, should keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing in place to prevent another happening tomorrow with any of the 'sporting' firearms some are keen to point out that they own, and we are currently deemed fit to possess. Let's face it, those precious  'sporting' firearms that some feel justified in owning, are all that are legally left to own. I doubt we'll be so lucky next time.  

 

 

[islandgun]

There are many gun owners that need to have guns, such as keepers/pest control, as long as a gun is legally owned and legally used then its actually a benefit to society. other than that it seems having an opinion on PW isnt welcome so i will leave it to you all, until its locked.. ?

Edited August 11, 2018 by islandgun