The Salisbury Poison Gas Incident II

[Bazooka Joe]

If the Russians were that innocent they would be all over these individuals tracking them down from their return to Moscow, then handing them over to prove they had nothing to do with it..........but that's guna happen is it....

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

No one can prove any of the claims or disclaims made by any side, or by any one, but in the face of a lack of another alternative behind the event, or rational alternative explanation, and until one is presented,  I’ll opt for the most rational one. It doesn’t mean I have a closed mind, simply a logical one, which doesn’t see conspiracy theories without a compelling reason. 

Wouldn't it also be rational to disbelieve countries that have consistently lied to us and caused wars costing millions of lives as well as millions more being displaced ? 

 

59 minutes ago, islandgun said:

This ... its perfectly conceivable that the Russians wouldnt have cared who knew what they were up to, they were always going to get away with it,  further what possible reason would the British government have for killing an ex spy,  I do wonder how the perfume Nina Ricci is selling at the moment

If the Russians didn't care why are they at pains to deny it now ? The Russian demonisation effort is mostly to do with Syria, here America's 7 country destruction pledge (supported by Britain, France, Australia, Israel and Canada to name just a few) was brought to a rude and abrupt halt by Putin, what's particularly annoying to the West is that normal "lets bomb em into submission" is not an option with Russia hence they'll do absolutely anything else they can think of to hurt Russia and its allies. 

[Scully]

13 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Wouldn't it also be rational to disbelieve countries that have consistently lied to us and caused wars costing millions of lives as well as millions more being displaced ? 

 

If the Russians didn't care why are they at pains to deny it now ? The Russian demonisation effort is mostly to do with Syria, here America's 7 country destruction pledge (supported by Britain, France, Australia, Israel and Canada to name just a few) was brought to a rude and abrupt halt by Putin, what's particularly annoying to the West is that normal "lets bomb em into submission" is not an option with Russia hence they'll do absolutely anything else they can think of to hurt Russia and its allies. 

Which countries did you have in mind in your first paragraph? America? Russia? England? Germany? China? Japan? 

The Russians deny it for the same reason they like to deny everything detrimental to the image of the party; it’s all part of playing the wounded innocent underdog role they like to portray to their own citizens. Have they ever admitted to state sponsored drug taking in athletics? Have they ever admitted to state sponsored murder of gays, dissidents/political opponents? They’re still fighting the Cold War, overseen by gangsters riddled with fear and mistrust, and that isn’t a conspiracy. 

[islandgun]

57 minutes ago, Hamster said:

 

If the Russians didn't care why are they at pains to deny it now ? The Russian demonisation effort is mostly to do with Syria, here America's 7 country destruction pledge (supported by Britain, France, Australia, Israel and Canada to name just a few) was brought to a rude and abrupt halt by Putin, what's particularly annoying to the West is that normal "lets bomb em into submission" is not an option with Russia hence they'll do absolutely anything else they can think of to hurt Russia and its allies. 

why would they admit it ?   I was referring to the assassins. its taken months for the Brits to point the finger conclusively . they were in and out in a few days, if the attempted murder was carried out by the brits surely they could have rigged the result a bit quicker

[henry d]

11 hours ago, Hamster said:

If the Russians didn't care why are they at pains to deny it now ?

That is the problem, they just deny it, they aren`t at pains at all. If they were innocent they could have got the 2 russian gents to stand in front of a camera and say "We come to Salisbury to visit aunt Olga (or some such relative)..." and then aunty Olga in Salisbury would also appear and corroberate their evidence. However all they do is say "It aint me guv!" (in a russian accent obvs)

[Hamster]

7 minutes ago, henry d said:

That is the problem, they just deny it, they aren`t at pains at all. If they were innocent they could have got the 2 russian gents to stand in front of a camera and say "We come to Salisbury to visit aunt Olga (or some such relative)..." and then aunty Olga in Salisbury would also appear and corroberate their evidence. However all they do is say "It aint me guv!" (in a russian accent obvs)

Or Austrian accent. 

BREAKING: UK prosecutors release photos of two Skripal case suspects.

[Blackbriar]

I often listen to LBC and, when the subject comes up, they have an almost endless stream of callers, who all have grand and elaborate theories as to why the Russians weren't responsible for a chemical weapons attack on British soil. Lots of them can't seem to grasp why the Russians aren't involved in the investigation - why would you invite an arsonist to investigate the fire they themselves started ?

Personally, I usually adhere to the princple of Occam's Razor - "all other things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably true."

Often, the answer is obvious..........because it's so clearly obvious. 

There's none so blind as those who refuse to see...........

[Hamster]

11 minutes ago, Blackbriar said:

I often listen to LBC and, when the subject comes up, they have an almost endless stream of callers, who all have grand and elaborate theories as to why the Russians weren't responsible for a chemical weapons attack on British soil. Lots of them can't seem to grasp why the Russians aren't involved in the investigation - why would you invite an arsonist to investigate the fire they themselves started ?

Personally, I usually adhere to the princple of Occam's Razor - "all other things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably true."

Often, the answer is obvious..........because it's so clearly obvious. 

There's none so blind as those who refuse to see...........

They have been accused of a grievous international crime with billion dollar implications, they have every right to demand access to so called evidence, the reason it is not granted should be obvious to those who are too blind to see. What nobody has yet offered is a rational motive, why would Russia want to do this, what possible good could it achieve for them that warrants such widespread problems within the US vassal states ? 

2 hours ago, Scully said:

The Arab nations are tribal people; they’ve been killing each other since before the Crusades. 

Either way, it has nothing to do with Salisbury.

You have a point, best you go and tell the bloke who brought it up. ?  

This has nothing to do with Salisbury either but just for educational purposes, Christians have been killing each other by the millions, WW1/2 claimed some 50-60 million alone, the Arabs are mere amateurs. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Hamster

[Rewulf]

7 hours ago, Blackbriar said:

 

Personally, I usually adhere to the princple of Occam's Razor - "all other things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably true."

Often, the answer is obvious..........because it's so clearly obvious. 

There's none so blind as those who refuse to see...........

Or made to be obvious ?

 

"If Russian military agents were involved in the Salisbury poisoning affair, they apparently did everything to leave behind a trail of evidence leading British investigators directly to Moscow, a security expert told RT.

UK police on Wednesday identified two people they believe to be responsible for the poisoning attack on former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter. Prime Minister Theresa May claimed the two were officers of the Russian military intelligence agency GRU, citing classified intelligence reports.

The supposedly highly-trained perpetrators did a remarkably poor job of covering their tracks, pointed out Charles Shoebridge, a security expert and a former British military officer.

"It seems very strange that these people have absolutely left what seems to be a very reckless and clear trail of evidence, which almost seems to be designed, or at least would almost inevitably lead to the conclusions that the police and the authorities have come to today, in other words that Russia were to blame," he told RT. "So many mistakes were made, if indeed they were mistakes."

According to the British investigators, the two men came to Britain from Moscow, left traces of the poison used in the attack in the hotel room they stayed in, were caught on CCTV cameras in Salisbury twice, including on the day of the attack and traveled back directly to the Russian capital. The poison used was also linked to Russia in the public perception – a point which was used by the British government to put the blame on the Russian government almost from the start of the investigation.

Shoebridge pointed out that so far there is no publicly-available evidence linking the two suspects to the Russian government and even their nationality may be different, considering that the police themselves say their passports may have been under false names. May's accusations are based on "unverifiable intelligence" rather than evidence.

He added the British investigators must have been pretty frustrated that due to the government's accusation of Russia they could not rely on the Russian law enforcement in their work.

"We know the departure and arrival times of these two individuals. That could have been cross-checked by the Russian authorities on their systems, as to what identifies were used,"he said.

"If the British authorities went to the Russian authorities as soon as possible after the instant it happened, it's possible that there would have been a very good chance that video surveillance images could be used to track those individuals back. There could be phone records that these individual used and a whole wealth of evidence and aspects that could have been covered by the Russian investigators."

The latest development in the Skripal case will "add rocket fuel to anti-Russian sentiment that has dominated the thinking of the UK political and media establishment for quite some time now," John Wight, a Britain-based journalist, told RT.

He added that Theresa May, who once again reiterated the claim that Russia orchestrated the Salisbury attack, will try to use it to strengthen her leadership amid a challenge from the opposition. May "will use it as political capital, her government is in crisis, she's been weakened by attacks within her own cabinet," Wight said.

Russia and the UK don't have an extradition treaty, so it is unlikely to see the suspects in court. The only trial that will take place will be done by the media – and Russia has already been found guilty as charged, the journalist said.

Wight referred to Seymour Hersh, an award-winning author and reporter, who earlier said his contacts believe the Skripal case was related to organized crime. Britain harbors a lot of Russian exiles who are called dissidents but are actually criminals, he said, adding that Skripal himself may have been involved with some of them.

 

Annie Machon, a former MI5 intelligence officer, told said she found it suspicious and alarming that the inquiry into the Salisbury incident has effectively turned into this trial by media, based on "bits of evidence that may look pretty compelling but will never be tested in a real court of law."

"You know, even if it is finally proven that [the suspects] were GRU officers, there's high probability they may indeed be rogue – how would you know what the thinking was within the GRU?" she suggested, adding British and US intelligence agencies, for their part, do carry out covert operations without proper oversight.

Both Machon and Wight, also wondered what the motive for the attack could be, especially coming just before Russia hosted the FIFA World Cup – an event meant to show the foreign fans how different the country is compared to its stereotypical portrayal in the Western media.

"I said right at the start of this story I can't see what the motive would be for the Russian state [to go for] a former GRU officer who betrayed his country, was caught, imprisoned, released under pardon and swapped in 2010 spy swap," Machon said."

 

Bear in mind what they have just (allegedly) done, they dont seem in a terrible rush do they ? 

https://news.sky.com/story/salisbury-novichok-poisoning-russian-spies-filmed-window-shopping-after-attack-11491730

Just browsing without a care in the world ?
Edit , new link, SKY removed the original one for some reason https://www.klfm967.co.uk/news/uk-news/2678222/salisbury-novichok-poisoning-russian-spies-filmed-window-shopping-after-attack/

Edited September 7, 2018 by Rewulf

[henry d]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

"I said right at the start of this story I can't see what the motive would be for the Russian state [to go for] a former GRU officer who betrayed his country, was caught, imprisoned, released under pardon and swapped in 2010 spy swap," Machon said."

 

 

?

I don`t suppose they could see why they would go for Litvinenko either, he just bad mouthed Putin and the FSB

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

I don`t suppose they could see why they would go for Litvinenko either, he just bad mouthed Putin and the FSB

I think you need to do some homework on Litvinenko , he did a lot more than that.
Plus he was best pals with Berezovsky, which is the real reason he was killed, to shut Berezovsky up, a warning as such.

But was it Putin? Russian mafia ? A bad business deal ?

It suits our government to blame the Russian leadership, so thats what we get.

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, Blackbriar said:

I often listen to LBC and, when the subject comes up, they have an almost endless stream of callers, who all have grand and elaborate theories as to why the Russians weren't responsible for a chemical weapons attack on British soil. Lots of them can't seem to grasp why the Russians aren't involved in the investigation - why would you invite an arsonist to investigate the fire they themselves started ?

Personally, I usually adhere to the princple of Occam's Razor - "all other things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably true."

Often, the answer is obvious..........because it's so clearly obvious. 

There's none so blind as those who refuse to see...........

 

This.

And as for the ‘why would Putin leave evidendce?’ well why would he deny military activity in the Ukraine then hand out medals on telly to Russian soldiers who saw action in the Ukraine the very next week?

Simple, he lies without breaking stride and just doesn’t care and he is supported pretty much wholesale by the Russian people who think he’s fantastic.

We are trying to measure a Russian gangster who isn’t accountable to anyone against our own more run of the mill and mundane perception of how a nation’s leader should behave.

There’s plenty of bias on here - there’s a few who would rather accept Trump is behind the poisoning than Putin. It’s a numbers game and some people are just bonkers 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Mungler

[Blackbriar]

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

This.

And as for the ‘why would Putin leave evidendce?’ well why would he deny military activity in the Ukraine then hand out medals on telly to Russian soldiers who saw action in the Ukraine the very next week?

Simple, he lies without breaking stride and just doesn’t care and he is supported pretty much wholesale by the Russian people who think he’s fantastic.

We are trying to measure a Russian gangster who isn’t accountable to anyone against our own more run of the mill and mundane perception of how a nation’s leader should behave.

There’s plenty of bias on here - there’s a few who would rather accept Trump is behind the poisoning than Putin. It’s a numbers game and some people are just bonkers 

Putin sees himself as unassailable, untouchable - and in many ways he is ! The West can threaten to get tough on him, threaten reprisals all they like but, beyond financial sanctions, which clearly haven't had the slightest hint of an effect on him, there's only two things we can actually do.........."Jack" and "****"...........and he knows it !

He can order the shooting down of passenger jets, invade Ukraine, annexe Crimea, have Litvenenko killed, attempt to murder Skripov, back murderous regimes in the Middle East, and gladhand 'elected' dictators in Iran, Turkey and Syria (among others)........and nothing happens. Why ? Because Russia fights back.

And, as regards some of the more colourful "alternative realities", Occam's Razor can work in reverse...........sometimes, an idea is ********, because it's so obviously ******** !

[islandgun]

two russians were paid to go to salisbury to kill someone, they didnt need to arrive by submarine. they knew they wouldn't be caught, months later the brits piece together all the info they could find, armed with this information they were unable to do anything about it. some argue that May contrived this to bolster her career, how ?. by appearing inadequate on the world stage. 

[KB1]

2 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Really ? What like even worse than the West dropping bombs and droning them ? ?  Youtube "history of wars in the last 1000 years" it'll open your eyes as to which continents are the real pro's. 

 

If we are to speculate whose 'worse' than who, we would be here an eternity.  However, what I do see is that our media hardly ever portray the enormity of everyday killing of Arabs by Arabs that actually happens on a daily basis. 

[Scully]

Anyhow, now we can get back to it.....

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

This.

And as for the ‘why would Putin leave evidendce?’ well why would he deny military activity in the Ukraine then hand out medals on telly to Russian soldiers who saw action in the Ukraine the very next week?

Simple, he lies without breaking stride and just doesn’t care and he is supported pretty much wholesale by the Russian people who think he’s fantastic.

We are trying to measure a Russian gangster who isn’t accountable to anyone against our own more run of the mill and mundane perception of how a nation’s leader should behave.

There’s plenty of bias on here - there’s a few who would rather accept Trump is behind the poisoning than Putin. It’s a numbers game and some people are just bonkers 

......this. 

[Hamster]

8 minutes ago, KB1 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as what I've witnessed first hand colours my opinion somewhat different to yours.  Many Middle Eastern countries treat other nationalities, such as Fillipino, Pakistani, Indian and their neighbours with such disrespect that you could not begin to imagine.....  If a Filipino goes to the police to report a rape, then the police (often) will rape her too....  Pakistani workers get beaten to a pulp everyday whilst waiting for transport, and this is a common 'sport' for some Arabs.  I've witnessed Sunni and Shia pulling machetes on each other for trivial spats. The list is endless.

If you or I were roaming in an unprotected area, it wouldnt matter how polite and accomodating you were; you are an infadel and your mortality odds would be pretty low, I can assure you!

It really is a different world to what some think, and if anyone were to tell me what it was like before I went there, I would not believe them, so I can empathise with your comments in all honesty.

I think you're under the impression that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and a couple of other places constitute the entire middle east, ever been to Iran or Turkey or Egypt or Jordan ? They're nothing like as backward as you seem to think. Machetes are a popular past time is Manchester and London too according to the news. 

This is not one of those occasions we can agree to disagree, the claim that Arabs, middle eastern, Muslim, "use other appropriate label"  have been at war with one another or killing one another since the dawn of time (yawn) is provably false, compared to Europeans they're at kindergarden level. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Hamster

[Retsdon]

I just find it hard to credit that the Russian State Secret Service can be that incompetent. Not only does it fail to kill the target, it also flies its operatives in and out on Russian passports within an easily traceable window of time - and the operatives go on to leave an astoundingly amateurish paper and cctv trail. And if it were the State, the novochock or any other means of assassination could easily, and far less riskily, be carried in a diplomatic bag and given to the assassins in-country. Why risk the whole operation by putting the stuff through customs at all?  I also can't see a valid motive for the Russian State in killing a retired spy that would justify the cost which would inevitably ensue from being fingered for the crime. Not to mention that the killing would inevitably tear up the unwritten rules surrounding spy swaps. It just doesn't  make sense

I can believe however that Skripal had enemies with a personal grudge. After all, he blew the cover of over 300 Russian agents around the world  - any of whom might feel he were owed payback on a personal level.He was also supposedly  involved with Christopher Steele and Orbis in some capacity or other - in other words he was still dabbling in the twilight non-governmental espionage world. In short, he almost certainly had the opportunity to make enemies of some ruthless people quite capable of paying a couple of goons to fly in and try to knock him off.

Was the hit ordered from the Kremlin. Maybe. I also think maybe not. But we WANT the Kremlin to have been responsible - so responsible it is.

 

[Hamster]

[KB1]

14 hours ago, Hamster said:

This is not one of those occasions we can agree to disagree,

I think you'll find it is😃

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

A grenade is perfectly safe until you pull the pin.

[Rewulf]

I find it very interesting that this thread has now attracted a explanation that the 'official' explanation that 'The Russians/Putin did it' must be the correct one, citing Occams Razor 😀
So lets put it to the test.

Assumption.
Before anyone knew what had been used on the Skripals, some 12 hours after they were taken ill, BJ did a press conference pretty much blaming the Russian administration.
Reason, Skripal was an ex Russian double agent, and the Russkies have 'form'
Assumption.
Once a nerve toxin was reported as the cause of illness, the Russians were asked to 'explain themselves'
Once novichock was found to be the toxin concerned, then it had to be the Russians, this was sited as proof, as novichock can 'only be made in Russia'
Assumption
Once this damning 'evidence' was reported, despite the fact it was later proved to be completely untrue, the UK and other allies swiftly moved to place sanctions and send diplomats home.
This action was taken BEFORE any independent analysis of the toxin, we simply had to take the governments word for it.
Eventually the OPCW did an 'independent' analysis, and simply said, 'We support the British findings' the full report is classified for some reason.
At no point were samples provided for Russian analysis, the British government could have put the whole thing to bed, if they had allowed samples to be taken from the Skripals (under supervision of course) and let the Russians check for themselves, making the whole novichok issue moot.
Instead they didnt ,and continue to deny access and argue about it.
A simple hair sample, which could be checked for a. DNA and also for the effects of nerve agents, could have been provided, ever wonder why the Skripals have been dark holed ?
A negative hair sample could potentially blow the whole thing apart.

Extra assumptions demand evidence commensurate..
Julia Skripal has spoken on multiple occasions about returning to Russia soon, so why is she in a British safe house for her own protection ?
If she believes her life to be in danger from Putin ect, why would she talk about going back (to his clutches)

We could talk at length about the apparent non deadly outcomes of this highly deadly 'military grade ' WMD.
We could ask ourselves how the Skripals were affected by the toxin, and assuming its all over their hand(s) how they didnt spread it all over the various places, ticket machines, cash, card machines, glasses, plates, cutlery and door handles, as they progressed through their afternoon, before succumbing at the exact same time 4 + hours after supposedly coming into contact with the toxin, a toxin that is supposed to kill you in a few minutes through skin contact.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence....
We are now told that the 2 'GRU operatives' that came into the UK, direct from Moscow on fake Russian passports, arrived at Salisbury station at 11.48 am
Smiling at every Camera in town they were then seen at 11.58 'near'  Skripals house 1.2 miles away , now they either ran, caught a taxi , or can walk very fast !
The fact that Serge had been out since 9am (probably visiting his wifes grave) and was clocked parking his car for the afternoon at 1.30 , means the 'attack' took place around noon, a smallish window of opportunity and with a high probability of detection.

This timeline is of special interest to a lot of sceptics, because many are saying Serge never went back home after his Graveyard visit, we assume Julia was with him too, and they went straight out afterwards.
So if he never went home, how did he come into contact with his toxin laced door knob ?
So the ASSUMPTION is ,he must have gone home at some point after the 'hit' between noon and 1.20 ish ?
The fact of the matter is we will never know.. Oh wait ! Why dont we just ask them ? Then we can put that to bed too.

Just like we could ask Charlie Rowley where he found the sealed perfume bottle, he originally said he found it in QE gardens, he now apparently 'cant remember'
The evidence points to more than one perfume bottle, so if they dumped one ,wheres the other ?

The 'evidence ' that we are told, also points to 2 rather inept spies, laden with nerve toxins, ambling around Salisbury AFTER the attack, apparently least bothered about the matter.
These gentlemen who I would assume could have adopted literally any persona or fake identity and nationality, decided Russian was the best disguise !
And a direct flight to and from Russia would definitely throw any of our security off the scent, well they were partly right, it took our government 5 months to name them.

So which is the simpler explanation, how does Occams Razor really work in this scenario ?
Or is it that the simpler explanation is the one that is easier to swallow ?

[treetree]

Don't forget the murder of the journalist Babchenko. This was absolutely positively definitely carried out by the Russians. Cue International condemnation of Russia, Putin is a monster etc. Russia says "We had nothing to do with this", the world says "Well, they would say that, who else would want him dead, they are the most likely". Until... 

It turns out his death was staged by the Ukrainians and the chap is still very much alive and well. Occams Razor found wanting here. 

Original report of murder. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-44296672

Subsequent revelations. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-44320240

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

A grenade is perfectly safe until you pull the pin.

So it is, not sure what that's got to do with military grade nerve agent being successfully smuggled into the country and casually sprayed onto door knobs in broad daylight mind. 🙄 🕵️‍♀️ 

[ditchman]

as i said before ...its old news and it is starting to bore me.............