CORBYN's Leaders Speech

[oowee]

A lot of hog wash on here.

Forever the kids of today have not been like they were in the past it's called getting older and wiser.  

If you accept that Brexit is a back lash against the status quo, a call for change a recognition of the common man ect, then surely the whole Corbyn thing is more of the same?

Tax is always something that others should pay, either companies, tax dodgers and so on.

I dont believe kids are any worse today than I was 🙂 I would like to see new legislation to capture due tax from super national companies but I am also happy to pay more tax to get better services. If Corbyn gets in I will of course accept the result of democracy but i will look at the Brexit supporters as the cause. Lets hope some how or other some common sense comes through this manic period and if we have to settle for a not so great deal for now so be it. Time is what we need but in the middle we must avoid Corbyn at all costs. 

[12gauge82]

15 minutes ago, oowee said:

A lot of hog wash on here.

Forever the kids of today have not been like they were in the past it's called getting older and wiser.  

If you accept that Brexit is a back lash against the status quo, a call for change a recognition of the common man ect, then surely the whole Corbyn thing is more of the same?

Tax is always something that others should pay, either companies, tax dodgers and so on.

I dont believe kids are any worse today than I was 🙂 I would like to see new legislation to capture due tax from super national companies but I am also happy to pay more tax to get better services. If Corbyn gets in I will of course accept the result of democracy but i will look at the Brexit supporters as the cause. Lets hope some how or other some common sense comes through this manic period and if we have to settle for a not so great deal for now so be it. Time is what we need but in the middle we must avoid Corbyn at all costs. 

🤔I don't think I've seen a single person on here calling for Corbyn to be elected

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I don't think I've seen a single person on here calling for Corbyn to be elected

I'm not surprised; the 'membership' here tends to be 'older and wiser' (not sure what the average age is, but I suspect 40+), interested in field sports (which Corbyn would likely restrict) and probably has a higher than average country rather than town membership - Corbyn tends to be 'town' orientated.

[JohnfromUK]

37 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I am also happy to pay more tax to get better services.

Quote is from oowee not 12guage82 which has been automatically inserted wrongly

I am only happy to pay more taxes if it is more wisely spent - such as Health, Transport, Defence, the genuine disabled/injured.

It also means less on overseas 'aid' to nuclear and space capable countries, less on payments to the feckless and idle, less on super delux prisons, less on subsidies to 'so called green' energy and MUCH less on overpaid MPs and their 'expenses'.

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm not surprised; the 'membership' here tends to be 'older and wiser' (not sure what the average age is, but I suspect 40+), interested in field sports (which Corbyn would likely restrict) and probably has a higher than average country rather than town membership - Corbyn tends to be 'town' orientated.

Labour has pledged to stop the Cull. 

[12gauge82]

16 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I am only happy to pay more taxes if it is more wisely spent - such as Health, Transport, Defence, the genuine disabled/injured.

It also means less on overseas 'aid' to nuclear and space capable countries, less on payments to the feckless and idle, less on super delux prisons, less on subsidies to 'so called green' energy and MUCH less on overpaid MPs and their 'expenses'.

 

🤔Where did I say that?

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

🤔Where did I say that?

You didn't - Oowee did.  I don't know why it has assigned the quote to you!  It puts that bit in automatically.  Sorry, not intentional, I will try and edit.

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Westward]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Forever the kids of today have not been like they were in the past it's called getting older and wiser. 

I dont believe kids are any worse today than I was 🙂

I agree the old fogeys like me have always groused about the youth of the day, my parent's generation certainly did, but many of today's young people are not simply badly behaved but badly brought up as well and that was the point I was making above.

I put my hand up to being a stroppy & rebellious teenager but underneath I had unknowingly acquired certain values such as honesty,  obeying the law, family values, loyalty, always being on time, never littering, keeping my word, dressing properly when appropriate and a proper work ethic. All this came partly from school where the boundaries were fair but strict but mostly from my parents who, incidently, were married and lived in the same house along with my brother and myself. From these sources I learned the values that have lasted my entire life, partly by instruction, partly by insistence but mostly by example.

One thing I find unutterably sad is that the youngsters I see around in 2s, 3s or a bigger group never, ever seem to be having any fun. There's no larking around, no laughter, no joy - it's all scowling and growling or they're locked in to a phone and ignoring everyone else. Today's truculent little tirds who represent such a a big percentage of the youth in certain areas and certain towns not only have no fun but don't seem to have much of value in the way of preparation for life. Most will stumble out of school into some crummy job and for some not even that. All too often these children have no male role model or worse, multiple "uncles". Too many grow up in a household where no-one works because it's easy to adjust your life to game and exploit the benefits system and where eduction is often perceived as mostly pointless.

There have always been such people but somehow in Britain we seem to produce them in ever greater numbers and certainly more than any other 1st world country that I've ever been to.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

You didn't - Oowee did.  I don't know why it has assigned the quote to you!  It puts that bit in automatically.  Sorry, not intentional, I will try and edit.

😂😂😂No worries, I was a bit confused 👍

[pinfireman]

11 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Pointing to the two real problems hidden by that idea:

1. The tax system is over-complicated, giving people plenty of nooks and crannies in which to "hide" to avoid tax. You wouldn't get this if they said "10% on everything, for everyone" because there's no wiggle room for abuse. Of course, with 2700+ pages of UK tax law, this is entirely the point because the "favoured" companies can afford to find those nooks and crannies and everyone else gets clobbered.

2. There's a strong argument that says any form of company taxation is damaging. Company taxes (i.e. corporation tax) are a mix of (effectively)

• salary / pay rises that the workers won't receive
• dividends that the shareholders of a public company won't receive
• profit that the owner(s) of a private company won't receive
• investment that the company cannot make to expand its business, invest in new equipment or processes or hire more staff.

With all that in mind, it's very easy to see company taxes as just another form of income tax, paid "at a distance", by the workers. If you accept that government spending is less efficient (or less desirable) than private spending, then it's clear that money that could be spent for the benefit of society via the choices of the workers rather than the government is either outright wasted, or at best, mis-allocated by the corporate taxation system.

Furthermore, remembering a lot of people's dislike of "fat cats", remember that it's their willingness to risk their own money in pursuit of profit that pays for our salaries and benefits at work. Reducing their profit makes them less comfortable and therefore less likely to pay that much-needed pay rise, hire a new staff member or invest in the machine that makes their employee's jobs easier.

It is unsurprising that Corbyn is arguing that more money should be put in the pockets of the workers and equally unsurprising that he's arguing for precisely the wrong way of achieving that aim. The answer isn't to clobber companies with more taxes, confiscatory share rearrangements or any of that claptrap - it'll just drive them out of the country at which point nobody gets employed by anyone and we all die of penury / starvation.

In fact, it's to go the other way and reduce or remove business taxes, freeing up the money otherwise taken in tax for more investment, jobs and economic gain.

Of course, to make that happen, things like an increase in housing supply, people taking personal and financial responsibility for their health / healthcare and proper energy security will need to be achieved - so I'm not saying it's easy.

The real thing to take from his speech was the nationalize this, nationalize that stuff. We might all think that BR was basically OK, to take one example, but remember two things:

1. The law represents the implicit threat of violence by the state against the individual.

2. A nationalized industry is only nationalized because it cannot be operated in a particular way without "the law" to enforce its continued existence. Human ingenuity has shown an ability to create profit from almost anything, which highlights the implicit admission that nationalized industries, being legally-protected from competition, never operate optimally.

In short, Corbyn is advocating using state violence to construct his ideal society whilst guaranteeing that public services etc. will never operate as well as they otherwise might.

A long way around the houses, but you got there in the end.  Strange thing is, he wants to Remain in the EU, yet nationalise industry.....he cannot have both! EU law will not allow nationalised industries.

[das]

7 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think another issue is that the young think nothing of spending £1000 on the latest phone handset - and £50 a month on contract, netflix, spoytify etc., buy coffee regularly at the fancy expensive Costa/Starbucks etc coffee outlets, think little of spending £100 on a night out, couple of foreign holidays, gym membership etc.

When I was young we were careful with money, because we knew we had to save for houses, cars, etc.  I used to walk 2 miles rather than pay 6p bus fare if wasn't raining (bizarre but true!) because I was saving.

They don't have the same attitude to money at all.

Yep, my era too. But it didn't do me any harm.

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

🤔I don't think I've seen a single person on here calling for Corbyn to be elected

It,s the politicians who have caused all the problems, NOT the Brexiteers! They acted democratically, voted  as to their conscience! 

[12gauge82]

13 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

It,s the politicians who have caused all the problems, NOT the Brexiteers! They acted democratically, voted  as to their conscience! 

I couldn't agree more.

[Vince Green]

The thing is if Labour gets in they will bankrupt the country, everybody knows that, but they can blame it all on Brexit - and they will!

Brexit Blamers will be next big thing, its the perfect scapegoat for anything that ever goes badly in the future

[blackbird]

You can blame the Conservative Labour etc governments for everything under the sun it’s we the people that elect these party’s into power we voted into Europe many moons ago now we have voted to leave, many people still harp on about Enoch Powel & the speech he made about sending the foreigners back if you look back who brought then to these lands in the first place, I am afraid if Brexit goes tits up, Labour get in so be it, only thing I am grateful of I am not a youngster starting out in life as I think they are in for a rough old ride.

Edited September 28, 2018 by blackbird

[yod dropper]

15 hours ago, oowee said:

If Corbyn gets in I will of course accept the result of democracy but i will look at the Brexit supporters as the cause.

Makes a change to climate change getting the blame.

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You can blame the Conservative Labour etc governments for everything under the sun it’s we the people that elect these party’s into power we voted into Europe many moons ago now we have voted to leave, many people still harp on about Enoch Powel & the speech he made about sending the foreigners back if you look back who brought then to these lands in the first place, I am afraid if Brexit goes tits up, Labour get in so be it, only thing I am grateful of I am not a youngster starting out in life as I think they are in for a rough old ride.

I don't think that's a fair assessment, when the electorate only gets to choose between the frying pan or the fire it's hardly their fault the system is corrupt.

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

 

Brexit Blamers will be next big thing, its the perfect scapegoat for anything that ever goes badly in the future

Spot on, it'll come.

[Newbie to this]

9 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The thing is if Labour gets in they will bankrupt the country

We're already bankrupt and have been for a considerable amount of time.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk

But Comrade Corbyn will probably triple that debt figure, he and his supporters seem to have an attitude of 'but who do we owe the money to?' Oh it's those pesky Jews, sorry, Zionists  is the word that Corbyn and his followers hide behind.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Newbie to this

[blackbird]

The last two elections I did not even bother to vote & I will never vote again, no matter what party is in power they are all as corrupt as each other.

Edited September 28, 2018 by blackbird

[das]

13 hours ago, Westward said:

I agree the old fogeys like me have always groused about the youth of the day, my parent's generation certainly did, but many of today's young people are not simply badly behaved but badly brought up as well and that was the point I was making above.

I put my hand up to being a stroppy & rebellious teenager but underneath I had unknowingly acquired certain values such as honesty,  obeying the law, family values, loyalty, always being on time, never littering, keeping my word, dressing properly when appropriate and a proper work ethic. All this came partly from school where the boundaries were fair but strict but mostly from my parents who, incidently, were married and lived in the same house along with my brother and myself. From these sources I learned the values that have lasted my entire life, partly by instruction, partly by insistence but mostly by example.

One thing I find unutterably sad is that the youngsters I see around in 2s, 3s or a bigger group never, ever seem to be having any fun. There's no larking around, no laughter, no joy - it's all scowling and growling or they're locked in to a phone and ignoring everyone else. Today's truculent little tirds who represent such a a big percentage of the youth in certain areas and certain towns not only have no fun but don't seem to have much of value in the way of preparation for life. Most will stumble out of school into some crummy job and for some not even that. All too often these children have no male role model or worse, multiple "uncles". Too many grow up in a household where no-one works because it's easy to adjust your life to game and exploit the benefits system and where eduction is often perceived as mostly pointless.

There have always been such people but somehow in Britain we seem to produce them in ever greater numbers and certainly more than any other 1st world country that I've ever been to.

+1

[12gauge82]

44 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The last two elections I did not even bother to vote & I will never vote again, no matter what party is in power they are all as corrupt as each other.

I agree and I think people need to get out of the thought process of you've got to choose between con or labour, I'd rather the monster raving loony party than those two if they won't listen to the public and deliver brexit for instance.

[Newbie to this]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I agree and I think people need to get out of the thought process of you've got to choose between con or labour, I'd rather the monster raving loony party than those two if they won't listen to the public and deliver brexit for instance.

The problem is that most Labour supporters have had it drummed into them from birth and reinforced through joining unions. I had a conversation during the week with my pub landlord, who was during his working life a member of a union and later a representative of the same union. The conversation started with no political party representing the ordinary working man anymore (not sure I can use that terminology), now I know he is Labour, so I said Labour may have used to when he was younger but now under Corbyn they are more a party for the student and those who wish not to work, a far cry from the working man's party, to which he agreed and then proceed to say he would never vote for Corbyn. I then asked who he would be voting for come the next general election as he obviously wouldn't be voting Labour as he did'nt support Corbyn, I think you may have guessed it, he said he would be voting for his local Labour candidate, when I explained he would then in effect be voting for Corbyn, he couldn't see it.

I think most staunch Labour supporters think the same way, for them it is Labour or nothing.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Newbie to this

[Rewulf]

[JRDS]

16 hours ago, oowee said:

A lot of hog wash on here.

Forever the kids of today have not been like they were in the past it's called getting older and wiser.  

If you accept that Brexit is a back lash against the status quo, a call for change a recognition of the common man ect, then surely the whole Corbyn thing is more of the same?

Tax is always something that others should pay, either companies, tax dodgers and so on.

I dont believe kids are any worse today than I was 🙂 I would like to see new legislation to capture due tax from super national companies but I am also happy to pay more tax to get better services. If Corbyn gets in I will of course accept the result of democracy but i will look at the Brexit supporters as the cause. Lets hope some how or other some common sense comes through this manic period and if we have to settle for a not so great deal for now so be it. Time is what we need but in the middle we must avoid Corbyn at all costs. 

If Corbyn gets in don't blame the Brexit vote, blame the Prime Minister and her Cabinet's gross betrayal of it (along with 95% of both houses) which could very well help Labour get in even though they would have done just the same.

[oowee]

15 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

🤔Where did I say that?

You have to love this forum at times. So 12g are you happy to pay more taxes or not 🤣

 

14 hours ago, Westward said:

I agree the old fogeys like me have always groused about the youth of the day, my parent's generation certainly did, but many of today's young people are not simply badly behaved but badly brought up as well and that was the point I was making above.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint".

(Hesiod, 8th century BC)

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."

(From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

'The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers.'

(Commonly attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L. Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277 (1953), but the NY Times (April 3, 1966, p16) only found a reference to the Mayor of Amsterdam, Gijsbert van Hall, following a street demonstration in 1966).

1 minute ago, JRDS said:

If Corbyn gets in don't blame the Brexit vote, blame the Prime Minister and her Cabinet's gross betrayal of it (along with 95% of both houses) which could very well help Labour get in even though they would have done just the same.

 

 

Vote for chaos and don't be surprised that chaos is what you get?