Police chief. ?

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, AVB said:

The average police officer will have a stab vest, a baton and CS gas (I assume most don’t carry tazers). The policeman on the gate had all of these yet he was killed. So people are proposing than somebody, chief Constable or not, who was completely unarmed should tackle the madman with a big knife! Sorry but I would be on my toes. Anybody who does otherwise might be brave but also stupid. 

Yes it could be a suicide mission, but when you become a police officer you swear to protect the public, in a way the job is bigger than you, if your not prepared to do that then don't sign up for the job, it's funny that many PCs have given their life like PC Palmer trying to protect the public, yet a senior officer hides like a worm, I usually defend the police on here as I believe they get alot of flak they don't  deserve he however is not fit to wear the uniform.

[amateur]

3 hours ago, chilly1981 said:

……….....should be made to retire  and until then wear a white feather on his uniform...………… 

Apparently he is retiring in December, but presumably until then he will have lost any vestige of respect from his colleagues and the public 

[AVB]

13 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yes it could be a suicide mission, but when you become a police officer you swear to protect the public, in a way the job is bigger than you, if your not prepared to do that then don't sign up for the job, it's funny that many PCs have given their life like PC Palmer trying to protect the public, yet a senior officer hides like a worm, I usually defend the police on here as I believe they get alot of flak they don't  deserve he however is not fit to wear the uniform.

Sorry I don’t buy that. So he has to commit suicide for what purpose? He gets out, gets murdered and then you have two dead for no purpose. If he had something to use then fair enough but are you saying that he has to commit suicide just to satisfy everybody’s urge for him to be a hero? Would his wife and kids have wanted him to have done that? Mine wouldn’t have. And how long did he have to consider what was happening before the bad guy was neutralised? It was 82 seconds form first attack on pedestrians to him being killed. So 10 seconds perhaps? 

 

[welsh1]

45 minutes ago, AVB said:

Sorry I don’t buy that. So he has to commit suicide for what purpose? He gets out, gets murdered and then you have two dead for no purpose. If he had something to use then fair enough but are you saying that he has to commit suicide just to satisfy everybody’s urge for him to be a hero? Would his wife and kids have wanted him to have done that? Mine wouldn’t have. And how long did he have to consider what was happening before the bad guy was neutralised? It was 82 seconds form first attack on pedestrians to him being killed. So 10 seconds perhaps? 

 

There were unarmed people running toward the officer being attacked, an MP and a civilian amongst them.
This person was a police officer, other officers rely on the fact that when in danger they will get unquestioned assistance, it is not right that when one of his officers was in danger he did nothing.
Attack in numbers overwhelm the opponent.

He had enough time to make the decision to get into the car and lock the doors, that time could have been spent running toward the attacker shouting at him,distracting him, maybe it would have been the vital seconds the injured officer needed to survive and the attacker got shot.

He failed in his duty ,and more importantly he failed the officers he held rank over.

[AVB]

5 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

There were unarmed people running toward the officer being attacked, an MP and a civilian amongst them.
This person was a police officer, other officers rely on the fact that when in danger they will get unquestioned assistance, it is not right that when one of his officers was in danger he did nothing.
Attack in numbers overwhelm the opponent.

He had enough time to make the decision to get into the car and lock the doors, that time could have been spent running toward the attacker shouting at him,distracting him, maybe it would have been the vital seconds the injured officer needed to survive and the attacker got shot.

He failed in his duty ,and more importantly he failed the officers he held rank over.

No he didn’t get in and lock the car. He was already in the car being driven out and he wasn’t driving. So what if he gets out and the terrorist opens the drivers door and attack’s the two other non-policemen in the car and kills them. Then we have another two dead. All of this hindsight is wonderful when it took place over a few seconds. 

I’ll agree to disagree with the heroes on here. 

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

Sorry but I would be on my toes. Anybody who does otherwise might be brave but also stupid. 

I might well have died - labelled as stupid, but I think that would be better than the label of "coward", which might well get stuck on this officer.

Given his rank, could he have not ordered the driver to drive at the knifeman? Perhaps someone of his lofty rank could have shouted to the public not to approach the knifeman or offered them a lift - to a safe haven. However it pans out, he was heading away from the scene where one of his officers was dying. Not exactly leading from the front.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

53 minutes ago, AVB said:

No he didn’t get in and lock the car. He was already in the car being driven out and he wasn’t driving. So what if he gets out and the terrorist opens the drivers door and attack’s the two other non-policemen in the car and kills them. Then we have another two dead. All of this hindsight is wonderful when it took place over a few seconds. 

I’ll agree to disagree with the heroes on here. 

And your conjecture and thinly veiled mocking is hindsight too.

 

Not heroes, just people that would step up to the mark if they were in that position.

[Harnser]

I have been in many a dangerous situation whilst doing my duty both here and in Ulster . Never did my colleges ever let me down ,nor I let them down . The man is a coward and should be sacked .

harnser

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, AVB said:

No he didn’t get in and lock the car. He was already in the car being driven out and he wasn’t driving. So what if he gets out and the terrorist opens the drivers door and attack’s the two other non-policemen in the car and kills them. Then we have another two dead. All of this hindsight is wonderful when it took place over a few seconds. 

I’ll agree to disagree with the heroes on here. 

Ok semantics ,he was in the car, he still had the choice to help an officer under his command, or lock the door .

He chose to lock his door, his officer died.

No one is spouting about being heroes they are saying you should do the right thing, i would understand if he had been a civilian and wouldn't have blamed him for locking his door, but this was a police officer,and a high ranking one at that, and another officer was in trouble.

[Vince Green]

His driver was told to leave by one of the armed response officers at the scene and at that moment the AR officer, irrespective of his rank, was in charge. Had he stayed he would have just been in the way. I don't see what the fuss is all about. The PC was already down when he and two civilians came out of the door.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Vince Green

[Gordon R]

Sorry Vince, I can't agree. If there were armed Police on the scene, then he was in no danger. Given his rank - whoever was in charge at that point - no-one would later pull him for staying. Even an air head, promoted way beyond his ability, must have realised the potential flak that could and has emerged. It looks awful and that is because it is.

[Harnser]

Lack of moral fibre .A posh word for coward . If he had been in the trenches during the First World War he would have been shot as a coward .

harnser

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, AVB said:

Sorry I don’t buy that. So he has to commit suicide for what purpose? He gets out, gets murdered and then you have two dead for no purpose. If he had something to use then fair enough but are you saying that he has to commit suicide just to satisfy everybody’s urge for him to be a hero? Would his wife and kids have wanted him to have done that? Mine wouldn’t have. And how long did he have to consider what was happening before the bad guy was neutralised? It was 82 seconds form first attack on pedestrians to him being killed. So 10 seconds perhaps? 

 

I didn't say he had to commit suicide, he needs to put the safety of the public before his own, as he will have sworn to do, if he or his wife aren't happy with that, he shouldn't have signed up for the job, as for having 80 seconds to react, what about the armed officers who get literally 10ths of seconds to react, then every decision they've made gets pulled apart, split second at a time over years, he can't hide behind that, he is in a senior position and should be able to make dynamic decisions on his feet, I think he probably did and he decided to save his own skin, stuff the officer being stabbed to death, on probably a tenth of his wage, doing his best to protect the public.

[Jaymo]

2 minutes ago, Harnser said:

Lack of moral fibre .A posh word for coward . If he had been in the trenches during the First World War he would have been shot as a coward .

harnser

But as a high ranking official he would not have been in the trenches in the first place!

Vince, for once we agree- the old adage of too many chiefs an not enough Indians, the ‘on scene’ AR specialist don’t need their boss either ‘meddling’ or being in harms way.

I know noth8ng of the person credentials and career path, be it accelerated or not- but given the right circumstances I would think he would be involved to a greater degree.

We weren’t talking about him getting out to help with some petty incident, but a major situation when for such a thing,there are those who are trained in this field.

How close was he to the downed Policeman and was he aware?

Mentioned before, many many armed with hindsight are great behind a keyboard 

[welsh1]

5 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

 

Mentioned before, many many armed with hindsight are great behind a keyboard 

Many of the people giving opinion on here are more than the keyboard warriors you insinuate, and have served in various conflicts round the world

[12gauge82]

9 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Many of the people giving opinion on here are more than the keyboard warriors you insinuate, and have served in various conflicts round the world

Well said, I'm sure the people criticiseing him have seen some sort of life or death situations or I doubt they'd be making the judgement they are.

[Fisheruk]

21 hours ago, walshie said:

It's not a case of what we, the public would do. It's a case of what the head of the police who supposedly look after the public should have done.  Any normal person would die of shame.

I would have had a go, even though I am the wrong side of 70. As TT said it is the way we were brought up.

12 hours ago, moose man said:

And the blood of the Pc will be on the hands of all the senior officers who’s negligence allowed a lone unarmed officer to stand on the door of what surely must be the terrorists number one target ..The system that allowed it is a national disgrace , the senior career officer who did nothing as his comrade was attacked and killed is beyond contempt ..

I understand he is due to take early retirement, about fits the bill .

Don’t let him go before the disciplinary hearing.

[Jaymo]

23 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Many of the people giving opinion on here are more than the keyboard warriors you insinuate, and have served in various conflicts round the world

That’s as may be and none of us know each other’s backgrounds- but your insinuating that because he is (A) male and (B) in the Police Service that he has the same attitude and ability as a trained Soldier.

As you know, the two are worlds apart.

 

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Well said, I'm sure the people criticiseing him have seen some sort of life or death situations or I doubt they'd be making the judgement they are.

You are inferring that only ‘ex soldiers’ can make the judgement- see above posting 

You may or may not have seen first hand action- some of you will have served and not been exposed to anything more than exercises.

But still there appears to be this bravado banded about.

Its the one who don’t who quite often are the ones who do.......

 

[ordnance]

6 hours ago, AVB said:

The average police officer will have a stab vest, a baton and CS gas (I assume most don’t carry tazers). The policeman on the gate had all of these yet he was killed. So people are proposing than somebody, chief Constable or not, who was completely unarmed should tackle the madman with a big knife! Sorry but I would be on my toes. Anybody who does otherwise might be brave but also stupid. 

I am not sure what equipment the officer had, how do you know what equipment he had. ? There are things he could have done apart from tackling the attacker just distracting him could have helped. He could have instead of basically hiding and ruining away, stayed and checked on his officers condition and given first aid. 

[welsh1]

"That’s as may be and none of us know each other’s backgrounds- but your insinuating that because he is (A) male and (B) in the Police Service that he has the same attitude and ability as a trained Soldier.

As you know, the two are worlds apart."

I am insinuating nothing, the facts are that he is a police officer, and his duty is clear, it was also very clear to him that another officer was in mortal danger .
Ask any rank and file officer male or female and their answer would be a resounding yes to running to help a fellow officer.

I hear that at the moment on many of the police pages on the internet, he is being dammed by serving and retired officers for his actions.

I never insinuated that he had the ability of a trained soldier, i informed you that many on here are not keyboard warriors as you alluded to.

Edited October 9, 2018 by welsh1

[bluesj]

It all boils down to is it ok for the police to run away if the going gets tough? if its ok for 1 its ok for all, if it is ok then at the same time it should be ok for the public to be able to equip them selves to protect them selves, but it isn't

 

[Dave-G]

Have coppers stopped carrying asps theses days?

[Jaymo]

4 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

"That’s as may be and none of us know each other’s backgrounds- but your insinuating that because he is (A) male and (B) in the Police Service that he has the same attitude and ability as a trained Soldier.

As you know, the two are worlds apart."

I am insinuating nothing, the facts are that he is a police officer, and his duty is clear, it was also very clear to him that another officer was in mortal danger .
Ask any rank and file officer male or female and their answer would be a resounding yes to running to help a fellow officer.

I hear that at the moment on many of the police pages on the internet, he is being dammed by serving and retired officers for his actions.

I never insinuated that he had the ability of a trained soldier, i informed you that many on here are not keyboard warriors as you alluded to.

He is not a Police Officer, he is the Deputy Commissioner- somewhat different and as to his view of the stricken Policeman, I wasn’t there , you weren’t there and neither were all the  journo’s and internet commentators that seem to have a better overall view of the situation.

If he was advised to remain in the car then that was the advice- as a former member of HMF I’m sure there were times you were required to issue orders to ensure the safety of An ‘Official’  over others, that maybe you thought deserved it. 

Thats just the ‘way it is’, always has been and always will be—- in fact the amount of people who prefer to play the bystander and film for their Facebook or whatever account than get involved is greater than ever.

6 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Have coppers stopped carrying asps theses days?

Doubt a Commissioner on other business would routinely carry an ASP

[welsh1]

Just now, Jaymo said:

He is not a Police Officer, he is the Deputy Commissioner- somewhat different and as to his view of the stricken Policeman, I wasn’t there , you weren’t there and neither were all the  journo’s and internet commentators that seem to have a better overall view of the situation.

If he was advised to remain in the car then that was the advice- as a former member of HMF I’m sure there were times you were required to issue orders to ensure the safety of An ‘Official’  over others, that maybe you thought deserved it. 

Thats just the ‘way it is’, always has been and always will be—- in fact the amount of people who prefer to play the bystander and film for their Facebook or whatever account than get involved is greater than ever.

He is a police officer, see the rank structure within the Met.he was recruited as a graduate.

As for what he saw, in his own words
 

The senior officer saw the constable suffer "two determined stab wounds".

He said: "I could see Pc Palmer moving backwards and him going down."

Sir Craig, who retires in December, went on: "The attacker had one of those looks where, if they get you in that look, they would be after you.

"He seemed absolutely focused on getting further down and attacking anyone who was in his way."

A

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Poor Moral Fibre!