Persimmon Boss 75 million bonus

[KB1]

Envy is an ugly thing🙄  What's stopping anyone else from earning a similar bonus if they put their mind to it?

[12gauge82]

I think your absolutely right whatmuff. Unfortunately in life, there are those that will take all they can and give nothing in return, luckily there are some that will give everything they have for nothing, it's a fitting time of year to remember those that have paid the ultimate price.

I think we need a change, most advanced civilisations since the dawn of time have failed in part because the top of society took too much from the bottom.

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, KB1 said:

Envy is an ugly thing🙄  What's stopping anyone else from earning a similar bonus if they put their mind to it?

Be complaining about footballers salaries next.

The bloke is  combination of hard working, skilled and incredibly lucky.

He must have worked hard and been skilled to get the job in the first place. 

Then what the government introduced was a lottery win of luck for him and allowed this to happen. 

Its comparable to other people in history, people who buy a bit of land and strike oil or find a gold mine underneath it.

Whats the bloke going to do? Turn it down? I can’t think of many people who’d do that. People will claim they will but when faced with it what they say and what they’d actually do are often worlds apart.  

[nobbyathome]

8 hours ago, ferguson_tom said:

If it was me i would have quite simply said thank you very much, thats what my contract says, thats what i am entitled to, its not my fault if your highly paid solicitors cant put a simple clause in a contract.

If you were lucky enough to be in his position would you really out the goodness of your heart say to Persimmon homes you keep?? you can guarantee they wont be pumping it back into the housing market for the good of the nation.

 

I agree with everything you have said no one regardless what work they do deserve to earn that amount of money per year when most people are working 6/7 days a week to try to get by but i just wish it was me I am 61 and working more hours per week now than I have ever done getting  paid just enough to get by  but that’s my  job and my life in his case he signed a contract and if it is legal then he should get paid it 

[oowee]

Thats the beauty or sometimes horror of LTIP bonus scales some u win some u loose. Factor in 45% tax and we are all winners. I would be sacking remunetation committee signing it off in first place. 

[Mice!]

38 minutes ago, oowee said:

Thats the beauty or sometimes horror of LTIP bonus scales some u win some u loose. Factor in 45% tax and we are all winners. I would be sacking remunetation committee signing it off in first place. 

That's the thing, someone signed his contracts, checked them over and was also probably on a lot of money.

But how is he going to spend £75 million??? It's not real, so he buys an island sets up his family and their families, he was probably already earning more than most of us could imagine anyway.

Role the dice.

[Jaymo]

So all of you saying it’s disgraceful to receive that sort of money and that no one needs it, obviously never plays the National Lottery or Euromillions (or Littlewoods Pools for those oldies on here)- would you turn down the ‘big one’ 

His Bonus scheme was to some extent a lottery as when instigated the chances of him receiving this sort of bonus were slim.

I don’t envy him for one minute, what I do find distasteful is the pursuance by the media and public over the matter.

Fact of life, some will have more than others no matter what ideology you pertain too.

How about this? a quick check of HMRC tax calculator has him ‘putting back’ into the pot over 35 million in Tax - now, do you think he is not contributing?  because I would like to know what your ‘lifetime’ tax input was ( not a solitary year).

He will still only receive the same Government Pension for his NI contributions, so not exactly pro rata is it?

Whatmuff, had to laugh at your Airline bucket and spade reference.....

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

So all of you saying it’s disgraceful to receive that sort of money and that no one needs it, obviously never plays the National Lottery or Euromillions (or Littlewoods Pools for those oldies on here)- would you turn down the ‘big one’ 

His Bonus scheme was to some extent a lottery as when instigated the chances of him receiving this sort of bonus were slim.

I don’t envy him for one minute, what I do find distasteful is the pursuance by the media and public over the matter.

Fact of life, some will have more than others no matter what ideology you pertain too.

How about this? a quick check of HMRC tax calculator has him ‘putting back’ into the pot over 35 million in Tax - now, do you think he is not contributing?  because I would like to know what your ‘lifetime’ tax input was ( not a solitary year).

He will still only receive the same Government Pension for his NI contributions, so not exactly pro rata is it?

Whatmuff, had to laugh at your Airline bucket and spade reference.....

 

Im not sure that people are attacking him personally or wether they're attacking the fact that it is possible to "earn" that sort of money, no one is really worth that sort of pay and what it means is that thousands of people who really deserve more money won't get it, the distribution of wealth in this country is obscene and it's getting worse over the years.

[Jaymo]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Im not sure that people are attacking him personally or wether they're attacking the fact that it is possible to "earn" that sort of money, no one is really worth that sort of pay and what it means is that thousands of people who really deserve more money won't get it, the distribution of wealth in this country is obscene and it's getting worse over the years.

Is no one really worth that pay? Bill Gates, Mark Zuckenberg etc? 

It’s subjective indeed but back to my original question- do you play the lotto and if so why when wealth is supposedly some sort of ‘Demon’ ? 

We do seem to have some odd double standards whereby we’re jealous of others and yet quite keen on ‘winning big’ 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Jaymo

[Whatmuff]

2 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Is no one really worth that pay? Bill Gates, Mark Zuckenberg etc? 

It’s subjective indeed but back to my original question- do you play the lotto and if so why when wealth is supposedly some sort of ‘Demon’ ? 

We do seem to have some odd double standards whereby we’re jealous of others and yet quite keen on ‘winning big’ 

Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates both founded those companies. And Bill gates is one of the biggest charity givers on the planet. My point in this guy is taking tax payers money indirectly from a scheme designed to help people. That's the point people aren't getting, he did not found the company, it was not luck he did not win. The company profited directly from a Government Scheme that was funded by the tax payer! How is that fair?

I haven't a problem with people or CEOs that earn lots of money, but if you think this guy is worth 70 times that of the Prime Minister then fine. And just to be clear this is a bonus, so I dread to think what he paid himself over the past few years. 

He builds houses.... He's not a heart surgeon.

[Whatmuff]

Quoted from the Guardian.

"The chief executive of housebuilder Persimmon has insisted he deserves his £110m bonus because he has “worked very hard” to reinvigorate the housing market.

he has just inflated the bubble, he has overcharged people using Government Subsidies to get the highest price possible for each of the homes. What happen ed to affordable housing? The 500m being divided out amount the shareholders is largely down to the Help To Buy scheme.

 

The housing market will crash in the coming months, and the people that bought these homes will loose out big time. I mean reinvigorate the housing market?! Come on.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Is no one really worth that pay? Bill Gates, Mark Zuckenberg etc? 

It’s subjective indeed but back to my original question- do you play the lotto and if so why when wealth is supposedly some sort of ‘Demon’ ? 

We do seem to have some odd double standards whereby we’re jealous of others and yet quite keen on ‘winning big’ 

No it's not possible, remember money is nothing more than a token to allow the exchange of skills, someone could work 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year and it would still be impossible to actually earn say a million, let alone what this guy has, ever since money's invention, people have looked at ways of "skimming" money from other people, I don't blame the guy himself, like you've rightly pointed out, most people if offered a ridiculously high paid job would take the money in a heart beat, it's the system at fault that allows this kind of thing to go on, although I don't have the answer on how to solve it, capitalism is a system that I think will ultimately fail, but I can't see a better one either.

[Retsdon]

13 hours ago, KB1 said:

Envy is an ugly thing🙄  What's stopping anyone else from earning a similar bonus if they put their mind to it?

😁😁😁

[panoma1]

New detached boxes just down the road from me, paved front, handkerchief sized back garden approaching £300,000, probably cost south of £100.000 all in to build............ripping ordinary people off to pay a highly paid CEO an obscene amount of money.......this is exploiting the need and "fixing" the market............and Maggies legacy!

But as others have asked....if you were offered it, would you turn it down?

[Newbie to this]

There's a company building in London called Pocket Living.

I worked on a couple of the builds in Lambeth and to say the clue is in the name is an understatement, the flats (sorry apartments) were tiny. Not sure what they were selling for but given the area I would say a one bed was probably north of £1 million (and they had the cheek to call them affordable housing). And not a sign of a parking space, just a Bicycle store on each floor.

Edit- The build quality was terrible, they were built in a factory and bolted together on site then a facia of bricks built around the outside. The dividing walls are just plasterboard.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Newbie to this

[Lloyd90]

12 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

There's a company building in London called Pocket Living.

I worked on a couple of the builds in Lambeth and to say the clue is in the name is an understatement, the flats (sorry apartments) were tiny. Not sure what they were selling for but given the area I would say a one bed was probably north of £1 million (and they had the cheek to call them affordable housing). And not a sign of a parking space, just a Bicycle store on each floor.

Edit- The build quality was terrible, they were built in a factory and bolted together on site then a facia of bricks built around the outside. The dividing walls are just plasterboard.

Who’s bought them though?

at £1,000,000 who can afford one? You’d need a 5% deposit of help to buy so £50,000 in cash and fees plus have to be earning £200,000 a year to get the mortgage (can lend 4.75x your income). 

It’s people who put down significant deposits or cash buyers are the only ones getting them, most likely foreigners land banking. It’s much like art, they’re juat buying it because someone told them it’s worth than much. 

[Whatmuff]

2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Who’s bought them though?

at £1,000,000 who can afford one? You’d need a 5% deposit of help to buy so £50,000 in cash and fees plus have to be earning £200,000 a year to get the mortgage (can lend 4.75x your income). 

It’s people who put down significant deposits or cash buyers are the only ones getting them, most likely foreigners land banking. It’s much like art, they’re juat buying it because someone told them it’s worth than much. 

Exsctly, and then what effect does this have on house prices? It pushes the rest up and London becomes unaffordable and this stretches out to outer districts, most of London new builds are owned by investors and empty. When the property is finished it ends up on a property investment sales team in the Asian markets before people in London even get a chance. 

Property has been manipulated and used as a platform to make huge amounts of money for the rich, and who suffers? The people as always. 

[Lloyd90]

2 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

Exsctly, and then what effect does this have on house prices? It pushes the rest up and London becomes unaffordable and this stretches out to outer districts, most of London new builds are owned by investors and empty. When the property is finished it ends up on a property investment sales team in the Asian markets before people in London even get a chance. 

Property has been manipulated and used as a platform to make huge amounts of money for the rich, and who suffers? The people as always. 

Property has always done that or been used as an asset. 

What would you prefer? 

 

[Whatmuff]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

Property has always done that or been used as an asset. 

What would you prefer? 

 

Great, so what if the top 1% of world's richest decided to buy every house in The UK and then rent to everyone as an asset? Would that be fair? There has to be a cut off point where it no longer benefits the rest of the population, we have to have a degree of fairness and give people the opportunity to buy a house rather than let the rich keep getting richer? 

This is what will crash the markets guaranteed, people only pay what they do for a house because of the credit available to them and the hype. Ask yourself what a house would be worth if mortgages were no more? Well people are now up to max with debt for homes that they can't afford and the way the property market has been for the last 10 years is toxic for the economy and it's coming to an end, probably why this company has decided to get 500m in shares out before it all goes pop. 

And property isn't an asset unless it is paid off and provides an income. Most property in the UK is a liability and becomes an even worse one when tenants don't pay, or interest rates rise or for the current situation with commercial property, when businesses can no longer afford the rates and close down. I have a large commercial park near me that has 2 shops out of 7 open. Maplin, toys r us, mothercare JJB all closed and more are closing in close by parks. Internet right?? Property is coming to an end as it's overinflated and at the top of its game, it won't get any more expensive as people just cannot afford it anymore, it has been bled dry from investors. That's why I have such an emotional reaction to this specific case as I feel he knows what's about to happen and his company have taken tax payers money, lawfully or not is not the issue. He's not stupid and neither is the rest of the team, they knew exactly how to play these system and maximise profits from the Government Scheme.

[grrclark]

7 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

Great, so what if the top 1% of world's richest decided to buy every house in The UK and then rent to everyone as an asset? Would that be fair? There has to be a cut off point where it no longer benefits the rest of the population, we have to have a degree of fairness and give people the opportunity to buy a house rather than let the rich keep getting richer? 

This is what will crash the markets guaranteed, people only pay what they do for a house because of the credit available to them and the hype. Ask yourself what a house would be worth if mortgages were no more? Well people are now up to max with debt for homes that they can't afford and the way the property market has been for the last 10 years is toxic for the economy and it's coming to an end, probably why this company has decided to get 500m in shares out before it all goes pop. 

And property isn't an asset unless it is paid off and provides an income. Most property in the UK is a liability and becomes an even worse one when tenants don't pay, or interest rates rise or for the current situation with commercial property, when businesses can no longer afford the rates and close down. I have a large commercial park near me that has 2 shops out of 7 open. Maplin, toys r us, mothercare JJB all closed and more are closing in close by parks. Internet right?? Property is coming to an end as it's overinflated and at the top of its game, it won't get any more expensive as people just cannot afford it anymore, it has been bled dry from investors. That's why I have such an emotional reaction to this specific case as I feel he knows what's about to happen and his company have taken tax payers money, lawfully or not is not the issue. He's not stupid and neither is the rest of the team, they knew exactly how to play these system and maximise profits from the Government Scheme.

Property prices in the UK are vastly over stated and the market has been needing a correction for many years.  Unfortunately a correction would leave an awful lot of people in negative equity and effectively paying for a loan that they have no means to get out of, especially if there is a requirement to move home or a change of circumstance means that loan is no longer affordable.

There are a multitude of causes behind this and many are quick to lay the blame at Thatcher's door for the right to buy scheme, however I don't think anybody at that time when that policy initiative was announced would have predicted the exponential increase in property prices in the UK, especially through the late 90's and the early 2000's.

One of the major reasons that we saw a period of continual domestic economic growth through the last Labour government was because policy at the time effectively encouraged people to borrow against the equity of their house, or at the very least there were no measures to try and stop this happening to the extent it did.  This consumer led growth stimulated higher tax return into the government, fuelled by private consumer debt, which in turn allowed the significant increase in government expenditure on public services and which ultimately of course proved to be unaffordable when the financial markets collapsed in 2008, hence the period of austerity.

Gordon Brown knew full well he was funding public sector expenditure on the back of an unsustainable property bubble and he is also smart enough to know the problems that would ultimately lead to if left unchecked, i.e. shortage of housing and an inability for low income earners to get onto the property ladder and be subject to exploitative rent.

Unfortunately, when the coalition government took over in 2010 and subsequent to that in the tory government the policy has not changed all that much and we are looking at the same problems we had in 2008 and that was glaringly obvious from 2000.  There has been some tinkering around the edges with the buy to let mortgages and tax reliefs, etc, but not nearly enough.

The help to buy scheme, whilst noble in principle, just added fuel to the fire because it was so poorly executed and allowed house builders and developers to be exploitative.  For those talking about the return to HMRC of corporation tax on company profits or income tax on the exorbitant bonuses, that is simply public money coming back into the purse after someone has taken a wedge off the top.  That is like the government giving someone £1000 to pay their tax bill of £450 and claiming it is a good deal because it brought money back into the government coffers.

[Whatmuff]

32 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Property prices in the UK are vastly over stated and the market has been needing a correction for many years.  Unfortunately a correction would leave an awful lot of people in negative equity and effectively paying for a loan that they have no means to get out of, especially if there is a requirement to move home or a change of circumstance means that loan is no longer affordable.

There are a multitude of causes behind this and many are quick to lay the blame at Thatcher's door for the right to buy scheme, however I don't think anybody at that time when that policy initiative was announced would have predicted the exponential increase in property prices in the UK, especially through the late 90's and the early 2000's.

One of the major reasons that we saw a period of continual domestic economic growth through the last Labour government was because policy at the time effectively encouraged people to borrow against the equity of their house, or at the very least there were no measures to try and stop this happening to the extent it did.  This consumer led growth stimulated higher tax return into the government, fuelled by private consumer debt, which in turn allowed the significant increase in government expenditure on public services and which ultimately of course proved to be unaffordable when the financial markets collapsed in 2008, hence the period of austerity.

Gordon Brown knew full well he was funding public sector expenditure on the back of an unsustainable property bubble and he is also smart enough to know the problems that would ultimately lead to if left unchecked, i.e. shortage of housing and an inability for low income earners to get onto the property ladder and be subject to exploitative rent.

Unfortunately, when the coalition government took over in 2010 and subsequent to that in the tory government the policy has not changed all that much and we are looking at the same problems we had in 2008 and that was glaringly obvious from 2000.  There has been some tinkering around the edges with the buy to let mortgages and tax reliefs, etc, but not nearly enough.

The help to buy scheme, whilst noble in principle, just added fuel to the fire because it was so poorly executed and allowed house builders and developers to be exploitative.  For those talking about the return to HMRC of corporation tax on company profits or income tax on the exorbitant bonuses, that is simply public money coming back into the purse after someone has taken a wedge off the top.  That is like the government giving someone £1000 to pay their tax bill of £450 and claiming it is a good deal because it brought money back into the government coffers.

Great post. And this is what's worrying. Only thing I'd say is, I'm pretty sure they knew the markets would explode. Any economist worth his moment could plot interest rates dropping over 40 years against money being lent. Take this graph, interest rates and house prices are directly correlated and it only takes a simple mortgage calculator to see the differences between interest rates at 15% and now at 3%. 

Over the last 40 years, whenever interest rates have risen, a crash has always followed.

[grrclark]

With the benefit of hindsight it looked predictable, but I would suggest if you could show any example of economic forecasts over a 40 year period that have proven to be anywhere near accurate I would be amazed.

Very broad trends are perhaps forecastable, but I don’t believe any economist in 1979, when the right to buy scheme was promised in the manifesto and then introduced in 1980, would have plotted a chart resembling anything like that.

The telling thing for me on that graph is the accelarated growth from 1995 onwards, accelerating further through the 00’s.

Prior to Labour taking office in 1997 the crazy growth of house prices and associated consumer debt was wrote large, but no policy actions to manage that, in fact the opposite was true as fiscal policy was relaxed and banking controls eased.

That is not say that a Tory government in 97 would have done anything differently of course, however Brown and Blair must bear significant responsibility for living high on the back of consumer debt with an associated massive increase in public expenditure that was entirely unsustainable.

[Whatmuff]

39 minutes ago, grrclark said:

With the benefit of hindsight it looked predictable, but I would suggest if you could show any example of economic forecasts over a 40 year period that have proven to be anywhere near accurate I would be amazed.

Very broad trends are perhaps forecastable, but I don’t believe any economist in 1979, when the right to buy scheme was promised in the manifesto and then introduced in 1980, would have plotted a chart resembling anything like that.

The telling thing for me on that graph is the accelarated growth from 1995 onwards, accelerating further through the 00’s.

Prior to Labour taking office in 1997 the crazy growth of house prices and associated consumer debt was wrote large, but no policy actions to manage that, in fact the opposite was true as fiscal policy was relaxed and banking controls eased.

That is not say that a Tory government in 97 would have done anything differently of course, however Brown and Blair must bear significant responsibility for living high on the back of consumer debt with an associated massive increase in public expenditure that was entirely unsustainable.

I suppose it would have been near impossible back in the 70's to predict but as you say it's further down the lines with the debt increase and relaxed approach to banking that could have been sorted earlier. 

I think modern day monetary systems are designed this way and controlled by flow of currency and with interest rates and last no longer than 50 odd years before a reset is required.

looking back at the graph what would your thoughts be on the next few years? Given that interest rates are near zero and can no longer be reduced? That's the bit that worries me the most as we have never been here before, and on top of that we have the most global debt of all time. 

[grrclark]

I only just noticed that graph is based on US real estate, was using my mobile earlier and didn't see that.  Makes my comments above about specific dates invalid, although i suspect that there would be a similar'ish picture for the UK.

As for what will happen, I really don't know.  I'm not expecting a complete crash, but my suspicion is that we will see the housing market remain quite static and potentially a small reversal, especially in areas where there was blistering growth previously.  A lot depends on what the economy does after Brexit, if indeed there is a Brexit, but let's not derail this thread with that.

 

[Whatmuff]

I think we will see a large crash globally as all the markets are linked one way or another. Yes apologies that's the US markets, however I believe the graph would be as you say very similar to that around the world. I follow the US property market too and Canada has shown signs of being well overvalued and places like Vancouver that saw huge influx of investment, mainly China, is starting to crack. Who knew buying up residential streets and building mansions wouldn't last.