14 million in poverty

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

Yeah it's kind of got out of hand and I can't argue with children. I'd like to see those 4 up against the professor though. I'm out.

 

13 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

I live in the South East and there really isn't anything for 90k. As far as Luton or Ashford may get you a flat for 150k but this is insanity in itself. Anyone who buys a flat for 150k with interest rates at near zero is asking for defaults and repossession.

Thought you were out???

can't imagine most folk wanting a 90k house in most areas, everyone wants to start with a nice big house these days.

[amateur]

14 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

I live in the South East and there really isn't anything for 90k. As far as Luton or Ashford may get you a flat for 150k but this is insanity in itself. Anyone who buys a flat for 150k with interest rates at near zero is asking for defaults and repossession.

There is property available in the Medway towns, Erith, Thamesmead, Gravesend at £90k or less

[Jaymo]

1 minute ago, amateur said:

There is property available in the Medway towns, Erith, Thamesmead, Gravesend at £90k or less

Badgers Bottoms areas though 

[amateur]

3 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Badgers Bottoms areas though 

Absolutely

[Whatmuff]

22 minutes ago, amateur said:

There is property available in the Medway towns, Erith, Thamesmead, Gravesend at £90k or less

Hmmmm my brother works for the council in those areas. That's pretty poor economics to develop a currency and monetary system that forces some of our most important members of society to travel so far from such deprived areas. That's not fair, and that's been my point. The price of homes and the current economic situation could have been controlled a long time ago however it has been pumped up for the benefit of the rich. 

27 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

Thought you were out???

can't imagine most folk wanting a 90k house in most areas, everyone wants to start with a nice big house these days.

Sorry mice... Now I'm out.

[Mungler]

46 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

I live in the South East and there really isn't anything for 90k. As far as Luton or Ashford may get you a flat for 150k but this is insanity in itself. Anyone who buys a flat for 150k with interest rates at near zero is asking for defaults and repossession.

Back in 1999 I bought a flat with my then girlfriend (now wife) for £94,000 with £5,000 down. My old man and everyone we knew swore blind that we were mad and going to take a bath. They are now £400k or so a go. The worst of it is the mortgage was about £500 a month (repayment mortgage and when interest rates were 6%).

Time, inflation, demand, location and interest rates...

We had to sell it to buy our next house but I wish I’d have kept it; better than a pension. There’d have been about £200k in rental income on top of the £300k capital appreciation.

Ah for a tardis.

I still reckon people will he looking back in twenty years time at the crazy cheap prices we’re currently enjoying 😀

[bostonmick]

So a thread about poverty has become a thread about house prices in the South East. There was a survey a couple of years back that actually found today's young did not rate home ownership very high on their priority list prefer to rent. But back to the topic perhaps we could have a poll on how many on here are living in poverty. Or know someone who is. 

[Whatmuff]

32 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Back in 1999 I bought a flat with my then girlfriend (now wife) for £94,000 with £5,000 down. My old man and everyone we knew swore blind that we were mad and going to take a bath. They are now £400k or so a go. The worst of it is the mortgage was about £500 a month (repayment mortgage and when interest rates were 6%).

Time, inflation, demand, location and interest rates...

We had to sell it to buy our next house but I wish I’d have kept it; better than a pension. There’d have been about £200k in rental income on top of the £300k capital appreciation.

Ah for a tardis.

I still reckon people will he looking back in twenty years time at the crazy cheap prices we’re currently enjoying 😀

All great in hindsight. I think the worlds central banks have created the biggest debt bubble ever and it's unsustainable. The markets are cracking and property will no longer be an asset class. 

 

I doubt there would be many living in poverty on pigeon watch Bostonmick, but I know a few family members that are struggling. Aunty is a nurse with 3 kids and regularly visits a food bank and the other is my sister in law and family and lost his job, I send him money every now and again just so he can feed the kids. Both of them used the help to buy scheme, interest rates and other rated hidden in the contract have been rising along with groceries ect and they are finding it harder than before. But I wouldn't go anywhere near saying they are in extreme poverty I would more say they are no longer living a comfortable lifestyle. 

[henry d]

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

Back to the definition of poverty, to my mind poverty is something you are at great risk of dying from and unless I am truly mistaken, that is something which we are fortunate enough in this country not to have to face.

Ok, are you happy for those in period poverty (ie. the family eating is the preference rather than your comfort) to "de-sanitize" the seats you may have to sit on in, say for example; the doctors surgery, the seats in the station, your home? No probably not for a variety of reasons.

How about poverty of access to services? Can you just drive to the doctors, how long does it take? How long by public transport? How much did it cost for child care, loss of wages? If your job stops this week without notice will you just go to the foodbank? No you have the means, the car, and the time given to you by the car, the money and what it can buy you to make your life better.

Yes there are many countries that are much worse than here and people survive on a pittance in comparison, but as you said you only had one telly and a rented VCR and holidays at home back in the 70`s, well context is king and that was many people s experience back in the 70`s, but you beat me by a vcr and a holiday, SFW, times move on and we live in a different context, no potato famines, no black plague, no rickets, but we still have poverty and it is relevant to the context of the country you live or work in, and this thread which is about poverty in the UK

[motty]

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:56, henry d said:

And that is it in a nutshell. No regime/government of any colour will be or could be successful it just like microsoft, stick a plaster over it until the next hole appears.

People get all upset and blame immigration/immigrants for just about everything, but it will get to "...peasants with pitchforks!" time real soon. I read this yesterday and I have to say it has a ring of truth about it, it concerns 50-100 years in the future;

Of course it all those immigrants and how they breed and stick to the same enclaves to blame for the state we are in...

Yes and yes!

Sea level 16 ft higher. Hmmmm...

[Jaymo]

10 hours ago, Whatmuff said:

 

I doubt there would be many living in poverty on pigeon watch Bostonmick, but I know a few family members that are struggling. Aunty is a nurse with 3 kids and regularly visits a food bank and the other is my sister in law and family and lost his job, I send him money every now and again just so he can feed the kids. Both of them used the help to buy scheme, interest rates and other rated hidden in the contract have been rising along with groceries ect and they are finding it harder than before. But I wouldn't go anywhere near saying they are in extreme poverty I would more say they are no longer living a comfortable lifestyle. 

If it’s “Hidden in the Contract” then it isn’t really hidden is it- just a lack of awareness as your Solicitor is there to conduct the Property transaction and not highlight your potential financial exposure.

Like many when faced with T&C’s, we blindly either ‘click to accept’ or sign away on the line without actually reading them! Did you fully read the terms when signing up for your PW account? 

We were taught the following.

If you don’t understand it - ask

If you can’t afford it - dont

 

[Whatmuff]

31 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

If it’s “Hidden in the Contract” then it isn’t really hidden is it- just a lack of awareness as your Solicitor is there to conduct the Property transaction and not highlight your potential financial exposure.

Like many when faced with T&C’s, we blindly either ‘click to accept’ or sign away on the line without actually reading them! Did you fully read the terms when signing up for your PW account? 

We were taught the following.

If you don’t understand it - ask

If you can’t afford it - dont

 

If you make it so complicated and use jargon that the purchaser won't necessarily understand short-term then you can sell him what ever you like. You can't tell me every solicitor these days goes through new build contracts with a fine tooth comb, most of it is done by assistants or paralegals.

Can you honestly tell me you read the 5 pages of terms and conditions in the mobile phone contract (if you have 1) of course you don't. We put an amount of trust into the person we deal with and use them as the subject matter expert and with trading laws and consumer rights we hope they brief us with truth on the item we are buying or buying into. People don't have time or the ability to understand contracts these days. Take the military and some of the recent contracts, some of them have backfired and are pretty much useless and not fit for purpose. 

Have a watch of "the flaw" on Amazon Prime. It has professors in Economics from Yale and Harvard University's and a few others including psychology economic professors. They are saying the exact same thing as I have with regards to equality and share of wealth and the last time the wealth distribution was this bad was 1929, and we know what happened then. We never learn anything about our monetary system or history as it keeps repeating itself, people seem to think that its fair pricing 80% of the population out of a simple thing like buying a home to live in or putting food on the table or having a family, and they also seem to think 90% of the country's wealth should go to the top 1% it's insane. 

If you think the pitchforks won't come out then think again. Just look at France at the moment! Petrol rises 23% and 280 000 people take to the streets. That's nothing to what will come around, think London riots X 10.

The moment that these big CEOs, footballers and famous stars get is just a number, it's just a token to be paid to enable buying and selling of goods within an economy. If you keep printing that currency with the intention to inflate asset prices then that cash just ends up in the wrong hands and the rich get richer by investment and the poor get poorer by inflation. It will fail as it's not sustainable. Watch this program, I only watched it last night and it's incredible.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Whatmuff

[Hamster]

It will come. 

[12gauge82]

I've got to agree, I don't think for a second it'll be my life time, but every major civilisation since the dawn of time has fallen in part because the top of society took too much from the bottom.

[Mungler]

😆😆😆😆

Were you lot about to break out into a song or start waving red flags? 

I fear that if there’s a revolution it’ll be the fascists and not the socialists that get the first shout (which could be problematical for you chaps 😆😆😆😆)

Back to reality...

If you buy a property under a governent scheme (or indeed anyscheme) and you don’t understand what you’re in for then you are a moron. It’s a property and a 20+ year term mortgage not a phone contract - you will appreciate the significant difference. When I bought my first gaff my old man made me write out by hand a spreadsheet of expenditure and income to make sure we could afford it and I’ve done that ever since with any big decision.

 

 

[motty]

On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 00:32, Bazooka Joe said:

I do hope that some of the high rollers on PW fall foul in their circumstances in the future & get a real taste in life what benefits/poverty is all about, some of the comments on this forum are disgraceful at best.

All seem to be mesmerized with the figure 14,000,000, that may not be right, who knows, but you must be blind or prefer not to see that there is poverty in the UK, & for the UN to be involved says something......rich get richer, poorer get poorer is now becoming/is a Tory policy, & I don't give flying **** whether you agree with me or not, save the essay's.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6374647/Foodbanks-forced-pick-pieces-Universal-Credit-delays.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

Not interested in the daily mail comments either, save your breath, first google search, & this is nation wide, people who are working are using food banks, (wonder what size TV they have) absolutely disgraceful for the 5th biggest economy.

But lets face it, the Torys always have had to have someone to kick & it's always them at the bottom of the pile that get kicked, biggest laugh is the PW massive is caught hook, line, & sinker believing that rhetoric.

There will be a Labour Government before long..... Corbyn's promise of a better life will/& is looking a lot better than life under the Tory's, Universal Credit is going to be the crux of the matter, the same as the poll tax was for the Only Cow That Didn't Give Milk....for them who cannot fathom that out (Thatcher).

 

Don't you think that a lot of working people using food banks, might be taking the ****?

[yod dropper]

Just in case anybody on PW is wondering whether they're living in poverty according to this definition, the threshold income figure looks like being £15k or more. 

[12gauge82]

28 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

Just in case anybody on PW is wondering whether they're living in poverty according to this definition, the threshold income figure looks like being £15k or more. 

I think we're all getting fixated on the word poverty, I would focus more on fairness and in the UK I can't see any sensible argument that would suggest we have a fair distribution of wealth, money makes money, roughly 50% of Scotlands land mass is owned by less than a hundred individuals for instance, Switzerland has one of the smallest gaps between the richest people and it's poorest, the average wage there equates to over ten and a half thousand US dollars a month and although everything cost more there than here, the average person there is alot more wealthy, in part because there is a better distribution of wealth. 

I feel particularly sorry for our young in this country, a combination of political correctness, sky high house prices, long hours in work, low payed jobs and job insecurity, very few have any real chance of a decent standard of living and to top it all off, very little fun or enjoyment in life.

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, yod dropper said:

Just in case anybody on PW is wondering whether they're living in poverty according to this definition, the threshold income figure looks like being £15k or more. 

This peaked my interest so I refer to the quoted text which relates to the original concept.

Now is that referring to median income or medial household income - two completely different things I have found.

Median Income is from those who do more than 1 hour per week paid work and is net of taxes but does not include sole traders, pensioners or fully on benifit.

Median Household income from all sources and is also net of all taxes including rates and of housing costs

Funnily enough the figure for both is about 26K pa which gives the 15k figure

Now consider population of 66m.   It is easy to see 60% of median income would leave 20% of populace below this level by simple maths and then apply it to the total population and get 13m.

However there are :

33m employed and a further 6m sole traders.   Any of the employed working less than 21 hours are likely to fall below the median value

27m households of which 4.5 m are pensioner households so don't fall into income figures.

I will let you do the calculations but it can be seen that if you apply the figures to Household income you get the 13k after taxes, rates, and housing.

Whilst I admit there may be some in difficulties I personally do not see 15k household disposable income as border line poverty.

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Yellow Bear

[amateur]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

.………….When I bought my first gaff my old man made me write out by hand a spreadsheet of expenditure and income to make sure we could afford it and I’ve done that ever since with any big decision...…..

So your accountancy lessons were of use after all! 😄

[Whatmuff]

2 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

This peaked my interest so I refer to the quoted text which relates to the original concept.

Now is that referring to median income or medial household income - two completely different things I have found.

Median Income is from those who do more than 1 hour per week paid work and is net of taxes but does not include sole traders, pensioners or fully on benifit.

Median Household income from all sources and is also net of all taxes including rates and of housing costs

Funnily enough the figure for both is about 26K pa which gives the 15k figure

Now consider population of 66m.   It is easy to see 60% of median income would leave 20% of populace below this level by simple maths and then apply it to the total population and get 13m.

However there are :

33m employed and a further 6m sole traders.   Any of the employed working less than 21 hours are likely to fall below the median value

27m households of which 4.5 m are pensioner households so don't fall into income figures.

I will let you do the calculations but it can be seen that if you apply the figures to Household income you get the 13k after taxes, rates, and housing.

Whilst I admit there may be some in difficulties I personally do not see 15k household disposable income as border line poverty.

 

depends what part of the UK you live in, and it wouldn't be disposable income if you had to cover all bills and living costs with it for an entire fasmily. 

[bostonmick]

38 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

depends what part of the UK you live in, and it wouldn't be disposable income if you had to cover all bills and living costs with it for an entire fasmily. 

What possible difference does it make what part of the country you live in. Does electricity, gas, food, clothing, petrol, diesel, so on cost less in other parts. Are you meaning if you live in Essex  you are in poverty but in Newcastle you are in clover 🍀 

. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

Don't you think that a lot of working people using food banks, might be taking the ****?

No...That's as ludicrous as saying all people on benefits are taking the ****....

[Whatmuff]

5 hours ago, bostonmick said:

What possible difference does it make what part of the country you live in. Does electricity, gas, food, clothing, petrol, diesel, so on cost less in other parts. Are you meaning if you live in Essex  you are in poverty but in Newcastle you are in clover 🍀 

. 

What possible difference??? Errrrr rent? £850 for a 1 bed flat in SE London or £400 in Lincolnshire.....

[Yellow Bear]

4 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

What possible difference??? Errrrr rent? £850 for a 1 bed flat in SE London or £400 in Lincolnshire.....

Sorry, but read my previous post that you poopooed. 

"Median Household income from all sources and is also net of all taxes including rates and of housing costs"

Housing costs are not in the Disposable element. - so why would location matter.  (and I know because it surprised me too)