Am I right in thinking.....?

[Scully]

Right. I have a friend who isn’t the most of consistent shots with a 12 bore despite having shot since Jesus was a boy.  He looks miserable when he does badly on syndicate days but is very reluctant to come clay shooting with me and a few others lest ( I suspect ) he makes a fool of himself in front of an audience. I’ve tried to tell him that it’s no good leaving his shotgun in it’s safe all year and then expecting to hit stuff with it when the shooting season starts, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

To cap it all, at the beginning of this last season he bought himself a 20 bore!

There is much much more I could write by means of explaining the situation which I find frustrating, and I have no knowledge of shot spread at similar ranges with either bore, but am I right in thinking that even with a cylinder choke in, that 20 bore is still going to be tighter than a 12 with full choke in it? It’s not scientific nor precise I know, but a 20 bore cartridge measures about 17mm across, and an extra full Winchoke I have measures around 19mm across. I can’t help thinking he’s just made a job he obviously finds hard, even harder? 

 

 

 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Oh boy, you may well have you work cut out with this one Mate!

Yes he is just making things harder for himself, will probably get more despondent and then give up all together!

Edited February 13, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE
Syntax!

[Ultrastu]

Nah .a  20b 1/2 choke should shoot almost the same size pattern at every range as a 12b .

If there  is a bias then the 20b could be 5 -10 % smaller .but cart choice can easily off set this in either direction.Hey my 1/2 choke .410 shoots the same size pattern at 25 yds as my 20b . (With a 1/2 choke ) 

 

[Ultrastu]

Mate and i recently bought a cheap (£30 ) clay trap off the bay and 10 quid of clays  .we set it up in the fields and simulate decoying pigeons .when we have no birds about (as it is at the mo ) .

Its great practice and fun with a friend and very little competition or stress .

We find that set up over nice soft grass fields any missed clays land unbroken for reflinging .

 

It really helps to get your sight picture and lead spot on 

[JDog]

Two instances of changing from 12 bore to 20 bore come to mind from my Cotswold days.

Both chaps got plenty of game shooting but they remained very poor shots. Sometimes it was embarrassing for them. The first one changed to a 20 bore and shot even worse. The second changed a few years ago and I met up with him shooting last year and he was absolutely deadly with his new gun.

There would of course be other factors involved.

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Mate and i recently bought a cheap (£30 ) clay trap off the bay and 10 quid of clays  .we set it up in the fields and simulate decoying pigeons .when we have no birds about (as it is at the mo ) .

Its great practice and fun with a friend and very little competition or stress .

We find that set up over nice soft grass fields any missed clays land unbroken for reflinging .

 

It really helps to get your sight picture and lead spot on 

Believe me, we have all the gear and plenty of opportunity, and I wouldn’t make the effort if he didn’t look so miserable about his poor shooting. We only get out what we’re prepared to put in, but I can’t seem to get it through to him.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Scully

[islandgun]

17 minutes ago, Scully said:

Right. I have a friend who isn’t the most of consistent shots with a 12 bore despite having shot since Jesus was a boy.  He looks miserable when he does badly on syndicate days but is very reluctant to come clay shooting with me and a few others lest ( I suspect ) he makes a fool of himself in front of an audience. I’ve tried to tell him that it’s no good leaving his shotgun in it’s safe all year and then expecting to hit stuff with it when the shooting season starts, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

To cap it all, at the beginning of this last season he bought himself a 20 bore!

There is much much more I could write by means of explaining the situation which I find frustrating, and I have no knowledge of shot spread at similar ranges with either bore, but am I right in thinking that even with a cylinder choke in, that 20 bore is still going to be tighter than a 12 with full choke in it? It’s not scientific nor precise I know, but a 20 bore cartridge measures about 17mm across, and an extra full Winchoke I have measures around 19mm across. I can’t help thinking he’s just made a job he obviously finds hard, even harder? 

 

 

 

 

Would you /do you feel disadvantaged using a 12 bore instead of a 10bore  ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Scully said:

Believe me, we have all the gear and plenty of opportunity, and I wouldn’t making the effort if he didn’t look so miserable about his poor shooting. We only get out what we’re prepared to put in, but I can’t seem to get it through to him.

Send him fishing!

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Oh boy, you may well have you work cut out with this one Mate!

Yes he is just making things harder for himself, will probably get more despondent and then give up all together!

No, he won’t give up; he’s as big a gun nut as me, which makes it even more frustrating. Think I’m going to have to try to get him to come bashing clays, just him and me, and have a serious chinwag. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Scully

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Give it a go, but he cannot improve if he doesn't put the time in!

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Would you /do you feel disadvantaged using a 12 bore instead of a 10bore  ?

I’ve never shot a 10 bore, but no, I wouldn’t, but even though I say it myself, I’m not a bad shot. I hit much much more than I miss, whereas the opposite applies to him. 

[billytheghillie]

Good Luck Scully.

[Whitebridges]

Good for you Scully trying to help the chap. The thing is i'm sure he'll get a lot more satisfaction from the sport should connect with the target a bit more often.

My thoughts are:

Gun fit. Also check for eye dominance. Is he flinching when pulling the trigger?

What technique does he use? Bum Belly Beak Bang ? Maintained lead? Etc... or is he poking at the target? Sometimes folk do all three and really should do things consistently.

Confidence is key. If you can get him shooting a few easy ones at say 25 - 30 yards this should lift his spirits.

I don't mind getting lambasted for saying it but a 12 bore is what he should stick with. With a 16, 20, 28 and 4.10 it's harder to put the shot on the target. For this very reason most serious clay pigeon shooters use a 12 bore.   

Good luck, i hope you can convince him that a few clays is a grand idea!         

       

Edited February 13, 2019 by Whitebridges

[Walker570]

31 minutes ago, JDog said:

Two instances of changing from 12 bore to 20 bore come to mind from my Cotswold days.

Both chaps got plenty of game shooting but they remained very poor shots. Sometimes it was embarrassing for them. The first one changed to a 20 bore and shot even worse. The second changed a few years ago and I met up with him shooting last year and he was absolutely deadly with his new gun.

There would of course be other factors involved.

I bet it fitted him.  Most of the problem with poor shooting is gun fit not calibre.  OK I don't want to sound pompous but there are a few and I include myself in this that pick up almost any old gun and shoot it reasonably well. I have been at it for 70yrs and 14 yrs of that professionally, shooting has always come naturally to me, both runing, flying and clays.  Someone with less ability needs very careful attention from a GOOD coach and a GOOD stock fitter.  If you haven't noticed we are all built differently and off the peg guns are like off the peg suits, they fit where they touch.  As most of you know I am a 410 shooter almost completely these days and out of interest because I wanted to know , I did a series of pattern tests both on factory and then my own reloads and ventually found a load which gave me a concentrated pattern at 35 yrds of 30 inches with the heaviest choke, I now shoot the next choke down which opens that a little bit but not much. There are  few fliers outside that pattern but I think it relates more or less to a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge or even a 16 gauge.  The TRICK is putting the target in the middle!

On one of my January driven days in Lincolshire this January, I shot very poorly indeed, even worse than that according to my wife. Anyway I gave it some thought and it suddenly dawned on me I had taken a different coat because of the bitter wind that day. It was slightly thicker than I normally wore. The following week I reverted to my lightweight fleece and was back to my normal 2.5 to 1 performace, in fact slightly better on that day.  Attention to such detail therefore to a begginer is very important.  Try and wear the same clothing or at least practise wearing the clothing you expect to wear on a days shooting.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Walker570

[Dave at kelton]

Why not suggest you share a lesson or two to iron out your respective wrinkles. Might give him moral support and you can go through the same basics, gun fit etc. You might even get a few tips yourself.

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

Good for you Scully trying to help the chap. The thing is i'm sure he'll get a lot more satisfaction from the sport should connect with the target a bit more often.

My thoughts are:

Gun fit. Also check for eye dominance. Is he flinching when pulling the trigger?

What technique does he use? Bum Belly Beak Bang ? Maintained lead? Etc... or is he poking at the target? Sometimes folk do all three and really should do things consistently.

Confidence is key. If you can get him shooting a few easy ones at say 25 - 30 yards this should lift his spirits.

I don't mind getting lambasted for saying it but a 12 bore is what he should stick with. With a 16, 20, 28 and 4.10 it's harder to put the shot on the target. For this very reason most serious clay pigeon shooters use a 12 bore.   

Good luck, i hope you can convince him that a few clays is a grand idea!         

       

Thankyou. You’re right; I know he would enjoy it so much more if he could hit consistently. 

I don’t think he’s ever given any thought regarding fit, footwork, or technique, and know for a fact that the 12 he uses can bruise his cheek by the end of the day. I once asked if he’d never considered a Browning, and lo and behold the 20 is a Browning! Why he hangs onto that Beretta 12 bore I don’t know. 🤔

[wymberley]

Any calibre shooting any degree of choke will pattern the same as any other calibre shooting the similar degree of choke.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Why not suggest you share a lesson or two to iron out your respective wrinkles. Might give him moral support and you can go through the same basics, gun fit etc. You might even get a few tips yourself.

Now that's a thought; good thinking. Well worth considering. Cheers. 👍 

1 minute ago, wymberley said:

Any calibre shooting any degree of choke will pattern the same as any other calibre shooting the similar degree of choke.

So given that cartridges are comparable, a 20 bore pattern through half choke at 25 yards, will be indistinguishable from a 12 bore pattern through half choke at 25 yards? 

[Walker570]

I think the comment ..bruises his cheek... is part of the answer.  He needs some professional help.  I watched a youtube of a young ...I think 12yr old ........ lass, smoking clays on a round of skeet with a 410 the other night and beating her older brother by one shot (he dropped one) she cleaned it.   The gun was a 12 gauge with custom 410 tubes and just looking at it you could see it was made for her.     Get him some professional help if you can. 

To answer Skully on edit ... Yes, the downside is that pattern will be slightly less dense and that is why I shoot fairly tight chokes in my 410 to keep the 18.7 grs of #7s as well packed as possible.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Walker570

[Ultrastu]

All good advice above .

You could surgest the following to him (if he is interested ) 

When i get a new gun first thing i do is go out in the field with a few old shoe boxes or cereal packets etc .and some large sheets of card .i also have some form of packing for the comb (for height adjustment )  first mark the centre of the card with a black bit of gaffer tape or something and shoot it at 20 yds . (Not too much further .as you want to clearly see the centre of the pattern ) .do this a a few times .its amazing how often we shoot high or low .adjust the comb till your happy your hitting centrally .

Then shoot the card boxes at different ranges. .

Mounting the gun quickly and shooting instinctively without the aiming process of the large card .

When happy the gun is shooting where you are looking .then you can go back to choke and pattern etc .and after than take the gun hunting .

It seems obvious to make sure the gun shoots where you are looking but so few people actually check .

Just now, Walker570 said:

I think the comment ..bruises his cheek... is part of the answer.  He needs some professional help.  I watched a youtube of a young ...I think 12yr old ........ lass, smoking clays on a round of skeet with a 410 the other night and beating her older brother by one shot (he dropped one) she cleaned it.   The gun was a 12 gauge with custom 410 tubes and just looking at it you could see it was made for her.     Get him some professional help if you can. 

Ive seen that vid .the little girl is amazing .she clears a skeet stand (25 for 25 shots ) all with the .410 

 

[wymberley]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Now that's a thought; good thinking. Well worth considering. Cheers. 👍 

So given that cartridges are comparable, a 20 bore pattern through half choke at 25 yards, will be indistinguishable from a 12 bore pattern through half choke at 25 yards? 

Yep. It is sometimes said that, "my 20 bore which is 3/4 choke patterns tighter than my 12 bore which is also 3/4". You know what they mean, but the fact is as said many times, choke is a performance and not a measurement and for the quoted words to be accurate, one of those two bores is either shooting looser than marked, or the other, tighter.

[Walker570]

2 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

All good advice above .

You could surgest the following to him (if he is interested ) 

When i get a new gun first thing i do is go out in the field with a few old shoe boxes or cereal packets etc .and some large sheets of card .i also have some form of packing for the comb (for height adjustment )  first mark the centre of the card with a black bit of gaffer tape or something and shoot it at 20 yds . (Not too much further .as you want to clearly see the centre of the pattern ) .do this a a few times .its amazing how often we shoot high or low .adjust the comb till your happy your hitting centrally .

Then shoot the card boxes at different ranges. .

Mounting the gun quickly and shooting instinctively without the aiming process of the large card .

When happy the gun is shooting where you are looking .then you can go back to choke and pattern etc .and after than take the gun hunting .

It seems obvious to make sure the gun shoots where you are looking but so few people actually check .

Almost agree with you but I add .... look and concentrate on the target.  If you point at something with your finger it doesn't have sights but I'll bet my bottom dollar it will not be far out. I think too many shooters are AIMING like a rifle ...with all these gissmos you can add to the top rail ...

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Right. I have a friend who isn’t the most of consistent shots with a 12 bore despite having shot since Jesus was a boy.  He looks miserable when he does badly on syndicate days but is very reluctant to come clay shooting with me and a few others lest ( I suspect ) he makes a fool of himself in front of an audience. I’ve tried to tell him that it’s no good leaving his shotgun in it’s safe all year and then expecting to hit stuff with it when the shooting season starts, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

To cap it all, at the beginning of this last season he bought himself a 20 bore!

There is much much more I could write by means of explaining the situation which I find frustrating, and I have no knowledge of shot spread at similar ranges with either bore, but am I right in thinking that even with a cylinder choke in, that 20 bore is still going to be tighter than a 12 with full choke in it? It’s not scientific nor precise I know, but a 20 bore cartridge measures about 17mm across, and an extra full Winchoke I have measures around 19mm across. I can’t help thinking he’s just made a job he obviously finds hard, even harder? 

 

 

 

 

To answer your actual question, no, a Cylinder 20 bore choke will in no way be as tight as a Full 12 bore, in fact it will or rather should be the same as a Cylinder ! Choke as I'm sure you're aware is a "performance" rather than an actual measurement, true the manufacturers have to standardise the format and characterise them via numbers by increments of thou decreases in choke diameter but for all practical purposes the "performances" will be similar, not identical but similar enough. 

If 20 bore threw tighter than 12 then it would follow that 28 bore would throw even tighter than 20 which would then mean we could easily surpass the accepted academic "performance" of Full being 70% inside a 30" circle in 40 yards which of course we can't - some combination of tight choke and a given cartridge may consistently throw 75% or even a tad tighter but that could happen with any bore but is in fact more likely to happen with 12 bore, something to do with this bore having the best compromise of shot column stack leading to fewer fliers. 

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I bet it fitted him.

I thought similar when I read JDogs' post. I too believe that a competent shot can shoot any shotgun well, but mate so far this season has used his 12 bore Beretta, and his 20 bore Browning on syndicate days, and on our rough shoot his 12 bore Beretta auto. He shoots disappointingly consistently with either, but can pull sone excellent shots out of the bag with his auto in the hide. 

I'd love to ask him to point and mount his empty guns at me to see where he's looking, but don't want him to feel humiliated if he doesn't have a clue what he's doing.  I'd dearly love him to enjoy his shooting as much as I do, but until Dave's excellent idea wasn't sure what was the best way forward. I think if we did as Dave suggests, we could at least then share the experience and build on that. He is an excellent rifle shot and keen to impart his in depth knowledge ( especially of optics ) regarding that, so if we had a lesson or two on the shotguns together, I wouldn't feel reluctant to badger him a bit if he allowed old habits to creep back in. 

[Ultrastu]

Just to confirm .mate picked up a new .410 today .i met him in the field for 30mins ..we had large card sheets .

And we had him hitting the centre of the target instinctively very quickly at 20 yds .

Next thing will be to get the clay trap out to make sure he is hitting (and give correct site picture)of the clays .before we take it hunting .i really dont see a better way of doing it .