Dog Training question

[Salopian]

A friend has a 16 month old Labrador that he wishes to train to the gun  ( steady , obediant , peg dog ) .

He has walked this dog daily and taught it to retrieve tennis ball , good to recall and staedy sit.

So he now takes it to a top field trial trainer.

On his first day the trainer brutalised the dog , kicked it , kneed it in the ribs , and hung it by its kneck free off the ground by its kneck .

The owner has been told that the dog now needs to be confined to its kennel and run , not allowed to walk or run free , always be on the lead and always do what it is told .

Do you feel that this is correct . We used to have 'dog breakers in the early nineteenth century , are they still about ??

Your thoughts and advice please .

I have had good dogs and test and trial winners , but never brutalised any of them .

 

[Westley]

We asked one such 'Trainer' to leave our shoot after the treatment of a dog undergoing 'training'   !  Having said that, I once had a Police dog that had spent almost 2 years, chained in a pub backyard. That dog took an awful lot of training, some firm, but not brutal, before he could be taken on the streets.

[Dave at kelton]

Absolutely no need for this brutality. Yes they need to be disciplined but not broken in this way. I have had dogs for forty years and yes I am strict, my dogs are kennelled and unless I tell them to get out and have a sniff around I have them under control. I rarely use a lead as too many people use them as a lack of training, your dog should learn lead or no lead it stays at heel. If you have created the bond that is generally where they will be anyway

your friend sounds like he wants a steady companion in the shooting field not a trial winner. So train steadiness, steadiness, steadiness. If he does that in a kind way with a good bond with his dog that’s what he will get. He has clearly gone to the wrong trainer. I am in SW Scotland and would recommend but too far.

By the way I don’t trial but do pickup three days a week plus shooting and wildfowling. My dogs aren’t perfect but pretty good in my view or I wouldn’t be invited back!

[PPP]

Absolutely no need for this, it’s the pillock ‘trainer’ that needs a kicking, not the dog

[loriusgarrulus]

2 minutes ago, PPP said:

Absolutely no need for this, it’s the pillock ‘trainer’ that needs a kicking, not the dog

+1

[ESS]

Had 2 delete what i originally put........................

Bully, bad tempered, impatient fool, unfortunately there are a lot like this (sorry)

i would never send a dog away 2 be trained / keepers are a bit like this.

[Lloyd90]

Come on then, tell us who it is... 

some of the best trial lads I know despise dog breakers. 

Although have at times been known to give the dog a scruffing or a stern telling off.

 

What it sounds like the bloke it doing is trying to break the dog, lots of dogs can’t take it these days, end up ruined. 

[Duckandswing]

If he had hit my dog, he would have wished he hadn’t been born

[reidler]

Who was the 'top field trial trainer'? 

Your friend should have walked away if he wasn't comfortable with how his dog was being treated, and decide what methods he's happy with and find a trainer who uses them. 

The person he went to sounds like he still uses methods from a time when people knew no better, but times and attitudes have changed and its unnecessary, and bloody cruel. 

Problem is, he's a top trial trainer so it must be the right way to do it, and he was probably taught that way by a top trial trainer etc etc.... 

 

[bruno22rf]

Name the waste of oxygen - anyone kick's my Dog is likely to find themselves in a whole world of pain. A tug on a dogs ear and a growl from the trainer should be all that is needed.

Edited April 21, 2019 by bruno22rf

[reidler]

11 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Name the waste of oxygen - anyone kick's my Dog is likely to find themselves in a whole world of pain. A tug on a dogs ear and a growl from the trainer should be all that is needed.

So a tug on an ear is acceptable, but a kick isn't. Where do you draw the line? One man's ear tug is another man's kick, with each probably being able to justify it to themselves. When in reality both are used to cause pain to a dog, which is wrong. 

[PPP]

If anyone hurt my dog they would need to be really good at hiding..

[scotslad]

I should probably say nothing here, ( and I'm not condoning anything as wasn't there). But 

Probably going to regret sticking my head up here.

But to name and shame is completely out off order, no one knows wot actually happened, no one knows the context and no one really knows wot he's describing as a kick, was it just a touch or more than that

I also dont know wot the dog is like

Dunno if any of u watch the dog whisperer bloke from America, he regularly strikes dogs with his heel, only softly I should add but I bet many UK owners would be shocked by that.

 

If the trainer really has brutalised the dog then fair enough but I do find it hard to believe a trainer has just went out on the 1st training session and battered a strangers dog. But mibbee it does haplen

 

Wot do u all think off the last comment, dog confined to kennel with  no free running.

 

I know a lad who has just took his 1st dog/gun dog to a pro trainer and he also has been completely taken aback by the training.

I know them and they really are not a hard trainer by any stretch, infact a very soft positive trainer really but still shocked him

 

Like I said I wasn't there but hoping the op's mate has over exaggerated slightly, althou I'm sure a few old-fashioned trainers still exist it mibbee is too early to out them on the internet as that's there reputation ruined (possibly falsely)

[Salopian]

Thank you for all your replies .

I agree 100% with every thing that has been posted.

Sadly I am afraid it goes on far more than we think , three people who know me have been in touch by phone and said "Yes I know who you are on about, did you know so & so and and thingy are exactly the same ." Another as just got off the phone after 45 minutes of moaning and said   'yes  I'll tell you who is like that but he doesn't half bring dogs on , if he kicked my dog I'd kick him , but I suppose what I don't see doesn't hurt me ." 

So dog breakers are alive and well in the gundog world.

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, scotslad said:

I should probably say nothing here, ( and I'm not condoning anything as wasn't there). But 

Probably going to regret sticking my head up here.

But to name and shame is completely out off order, no one knows wot actually happened, no one knows the context and no one really knows wot he's describing as a kick, was it just a touch or more than that

I also dont know wot the dog is like

Dunno if any of u watch the dog whisperer bloke from America, he regularly strikes dogs with his heel, only softly I should add but I bet many UK owners would be shocked by that.

 

If the trainer really has brutalised the dog then fair enough but I do find it hard to believe a trainer has just went out on the 1st training session and battered a strangers dog. But mibbee it does haplen

 

Wot do u all think off the last comment, dog confined to kennel with  no free running.

 

I know a lad who has just took his 1st dog/gun dog to a pro trainer and he also has been completely taken aback by the training.

I know them and they really are not a hard trainer by any stretch, infact a very soft positive trainer really but still shocked him

 

Like I said I wasn't there but hoping the op's mate has over exaggerated slightly, althou I'm sure a few old-fashioned trainers still exist it mibbee is too early to out them on the internet as that's there reputation ruined (possibly falsely)

This ^^^^^^ 

we don’t know the full story so it’s wrong to be judge and jury 

[Salopian]

I agree , we have to deal with facts at the time and if we are there .

Each to his own , but I use firm commands , common sense and repeat untril the dog gets the message , patience is a virtue. And pays dividends in the end .

Yes scolding and scruffing is okay in my book.

[bruno22rf]

Are you deliberately being argumentative reidler? Do you honestly consider a tug on a Dogs ear equal to kicking it - tell you what - you give my ear a tug and I will give you a kick see which is preferable. I'm not talking about wrenching the Dog off the ground by it's ears - you simply put your hand around the ear and wriggle it while growling - there is no pain involved whatsoever. The method was taught to me by an ex British champion springer man who NEVER hit his dogs - he reckoned that breaking a Dogs spirit was breaking a Dog.

[reidler]

This is what ****** me off about the gundog world. I agree to an extent that it could ruin the person's reputation if its not true etc BUT... The person is taking money off strangers for training their dog, so it's a business. Every business is now open to reviews on the Internet be it TripAdvisor, rate my whatever and so on. For some reason people treat gundog professionals like some mafia crime organisation where no one dare speak their name. If they believe in what they do and how they do it then they'd have no problem justifying it to anyone might use their service, and the customer can decide if they're happy to go ahead or Not and go elsewhere. But instead we'll keep on moaning on forums and call them cruel ********. 

 

[reidler]

5 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Are you deliberately being argumentative reidler? Do you honestly consider a tug on a Dogs ear equal to kicking it - tell you what - you give my ear a tug and I will give you a kick see which is preferable. I'm not talking about wrenching the Dog off the ground by it's ears - you simply put your hand around the ear and wriggle it while growling - there is no pain involved whatsoever. The method was taught to me by an ex British champion springer man who NEVER hit his dogs - he reckoned that breaking a Dogs spirit was breaking a Dog.

No, why does me questioning your training cause you to be so defensive? 

It's gone from a tug to a wriggle, if the tug caused no pain then why do it? And if it's a painless wriggle then the dog would probably see it as rewarding, so doing it whilst growling would confuse it at best. 

[scotslad]

1 hour ago, Salopian said:

Thank you for all your replies .

I agree 100% with every thing that has been posted.

Sadly I am afraid it goes on far more than we think , three people who know me have been in touch by phone and said "Yes I know who you are on about, did you know so & so and and thingy are exactly the same ." Another as just got off the phone after 45 minutes of moaning and said   'yes  I'll tell you who is like that but he doesn't half bring dogs on , if he kicked my dog I'd kick him , but I suppose what I don't see doesn't hurt me ." 

So dog breakers are alive and well in the gundog world.

 

Fair play then, wasn't entirely doubting ur story but just not enough info for an internet witch hunt if unfounded.

 

It amazes me that even the breakers are stupid enough to do it openly on a strangers dog .

 

My 1st head keeper was a real dog breaker but that was 3 decades + ago when it was more the norm.

I occasionally pick up alongside 2 with a terrible rep, atleasrt in the past, yet when u watch them and there dogs ud never know it. There dogs never seem to cower like ud expect and I've never seen them strike 1 on a shoot day or even a few training days where I've been shooting for them.

So either changed tactics or just do it in private

 

For me the thing u see most often is ur typical rubbish beating line dog bogging off and then being battered when it eventually comes back, just wrong on so many levels.

 

Reidler any complaints bad reviews etc should be from the actual client not some internet witch hunt

 

As an aside I was on a training wknd once for hprs yes ago with a good positive trainer and she reckoned u need to repeat something 150 ( I think) times for a dog to really understand/ engrained

[reidler]

6 minutes ago, scotslad said:

Reidler any complaints bad reviews etc should be from the actual client not some internet witch hunt

Agreed, although it never seems to happen, people would rather anonymously moan then forget it happened. 

Although You can bet if someone had a dodgy curry and put the restaurants name up, no one would batter an eyelid. 

[scotslad]

But a dodgy curry/food poisoning is a pretty black and white situation with no personal opinion.

Rough handling off a dog is massively a personal opinion and really depends on the situation, context and even the individual dog as no 2 dogs can be trained the exact same way or respond to praise/correction or even treats the same.

Unless ur there hard to say either way, also the client may not have a clue wots going on either, possibly had to resort to a more physical approach than normal as the client/owner has made too many mistakes with dog.

Just so many potential variations and all open to personal opinion

By all accounts the trainer is an idiot from later posts,

[B725]

Two years ago I saw a keeper invited to a shoot I was on and he picked up his springer by both ears I spoke to the shoot captain and told him if he turns up again I've done, to which he replied your not the first one to say it he also took pride in injecting the dog with antihistamines in front of everyone when I asked *** are you doing that for he said incase of nettle stings I've never been back since 

Edited April 21, 2019 by B725

[Lloyd90]

If your not willing to state who the person is then don’t make a thread about it. 

If you name someone publicly it does a few things. 

 

1) it allows people to spot trends - there are already some self proclaimed gundog training expert who have had press for beating their own and clients dogs. 

If lots of people are saying that one trainer is harsh on the dogs and no one is saying anything good then that’s consistently bad feedback. 

Chris Upton has bad feedback for this very thing, was even in the paper. I spoke to some lads who went to him, one or two said he’s even worse in person, on the other hand, one lad told me that he really helped him and his approaches worked really well for his dog. He was obviously happy with that type of handling. 

 

2) It allows the people being criticised behind closed doors to hear about it and respond if they do wish. Chris Upton once again responded to the claims that his handling was harsh. Gave an explanation and justified it for himself. 

 

Ian Openshaw, undeniable one of the top spaniel trainers ever, will run after a dog and give its ear a tug if it’s not listening, it’s on his (very old) dvd. I watched it today in fact. 

 

[bruno22rf]

The word TUG as used in "tugging your forelock" - ever seen it done? Does it remove hair or hurt? Christ on a bike.