AYA117 Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 'hopefully' and 'should' says it all really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 On 15/05/2019 at 12:24, Scully said: Mmmm. Haven't read it all yet, but the example of a supermarket killing a bird which is defecating on food items seems a tad impractical. They are left with having to allow the bird or birds to fly around, doing what they do, until they can secure a license to deal with it lethally! Are we talking hours, days, weeks here? Reality - months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 17 hours ago, lancer425 said: I am not suggesting anything resembling a compromise, just pointing out the obvious really . Lead is toxic, we have to reduce the lead in our environment and this is why we use non lead fishing weights inland and unleaded fuel and any number of lead free alternatives solder. pipe work its endless. Wildfowling dropped lead via legislation, lead is going to go if averey campaigns or not, at what point do we start the change then? Do we wait for this to happen here. Todays news. https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/over-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html We need to get our act together start being responsible try and stop an outright ban, and if we are very lucky we might just keep lead in place. 1. do we just carry on until they take lead. because it wont be long. 2. do we genuinely all try and reduce the amount of lead we shoot wile we still have time, and let our actions show we are using less lead and any used is low and essential for the likes of (feltwads old muzleoaders) older guns, and hopefully get no ban imposed. 3 whats your plan then. How are we going to stop it getting baned as in wildfowling. That is hopefully being addressed though, bio degradable wads are out there now we should be able to get around this, if it happens. . Really? This is what you wrote as you seem to have forgotten. .' Non tox is perfect for Pigeon shooting as we all know so if thats the only compromise we will be home and dry. ' No one is denying lead is toxic, but like I said, we've done the subject to death and the threats it is claimed lead poses to human and animal health, by those who oppose shooting, aren't actually as great as they claimed. I find it baffling that you seem to be suggesting that if we all turn to shooting steel, lead may not be banned! Really? It's not about lead, it's about shooting live quarry; don't you see that? Those who oppose what we do will use any and all methods foul or fair to reduce the numbers of us who shoot live quarry. They will chip away relentlessly, bit by bit until there are fewer and fewer of us left, making it increasingly more difficult, bit by bit, for us to shoot live quarry, until they get their way. It's not about lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 19 hours ago, lancer425 said: I am not suggesting anything resembling a compromise, just pointing out the obvious really . Lead is toxic, we have to reduce the lead in our environment and this is why we use non lead fishing weights inland and unleaded fuel and any number of lead free alternatives solder. pipe work its endless. Wildfowling dropped lead via legislation, lead is going to go if averey campaigns or not, at what point do we start the change then? Do we wait for this to happen here. Todays news. https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/over-100000-guns-could-be-banned-under-new-eu-rules-38117388.html We need to get our act together start being responsible try and stop an outright ban, and if we are very lucky we might just keep lead in place. 1. do we just carry on until they take lead. because it wont be long. 2. do we genuinely all try and reduce the amount of lead we shoot wile we still have time, and let our actions show we are using less lead and any used is low and essential for the likes of (feltwads old muzleoaders) older guns, and hopefully get no ban imposed. 3 whats your plan then. How are we going to stop it getting baned as in wildfowling. That is hopefully being addressed though, bio degradable wads are out there now we should be able to get around this, if it happens. . Why introduce another stick for them to beat us with? How many possess shot guns not steel proofed? Bio wads and shells, more cost and disruption, where does it end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 I for one possess shotguns that are not steel proof which consist of both muzzle loaders and early breech loader these are the types that I have shot for the past 71 years if lead is banned it does not look good for me Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Scully said: Really? This is what you wrote as you seem to have forgotten. .' Non tox is perfect for Pigeon shooting as we all know so if thats the only compromise we will be home and dry. ' No one is denying lead is toxic, but like I said, we've done the subject to death and the threats it is claimed lead poses to human and animal health, by those who oppose shooting, aren't actually as great as they claimed. I find it baffling that you seem to be suggesting that if we all turn to shooting steel, lead may not be banned! Really? It's not about lead, it's about shooting live quarry; don't you see that? Those who oppose what we do will use any and all methods foul or fair to reduce the numbers of us who shoot live quarry. They will chip away relentlessly, bit by bit until there are fewer and fewer of us left, making it increasingly more difficult, bit by bit, for us to shoot live quarry, until they get their way. It's not about lead. Steel is perfect foe pigeon shooting its efficient its lethal and birds shot with steel can feed falcons / hawks, i use pigeons for this purpose and why i use steel, as do others. And to clarify the last part of the statement for you, i will gladly elaborate on the comment . here is the original. ' Non tox is perfect for Pigeon shooting as we all know so if thats the only compromise we will be home and dry. ' More detailed . ' Non tox is perfect for Pigeon shooting as all of us that use it know, non tox includes a broad variety of shot types that can easily out perform Lead ballisticaly or match it exactly or be cheaper so non tox is perfect for pigeon shooting. IMHO It is highly unlikely Non tox will be a requirement in any legislation from DEFRA with respect to the pending general licences. And i am confident we will be able to carry on using lead as before the reason or evidence is just not there to prompt a move to non tox at the moment.. However given the efficiency of non tox if in the future it is decided by legislation that non tox is deemed a requirement but we can at least carry on shooting pigeons as before the GL revocation and thats the only compromise we face given the capabilities of non tox we will be able to still carry on sadly without Lead but with more than adequate substitutes. . ' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Steel is perfect foe pigeon shooting its efficient its lethal and birds shot with steel can feed falcons / hawks, i use pigeons for this purpose and why i use steel, as do others. And to clarify the last part of the statement for you, i will gladly elaborate on the comment . here is the original. ' Non tox is perfect for Pigeon shooting as we all know so if thats the only compromise we will be home and dry. ' More detailed . ' Non tox is perfect for Pigeon shooting as all of us that use it know, non tox includes a broad variety of shot types that can easily out perform Lead ballisticaly or match it exactly or be cheaper so non tox is perfect for pigeon shooting. IMHO It is highly unlikely Non tox will be a requirement in any legislation from DEFRA with respect to the pending general licences. And i am confident we will be able to carry on using lead as before the reason or evidence is just not there to prompt a move to non tox at the moment.. However given the efficiency of non tox if in the future it is decided by legislation that non tox is deemed a requirement but we can at least carry on shooting pigeons as before the GL revocation and thats the only compromise we face given the capabilities of non tox we will be able to still carry on sadly without Lead but with more than adequate substitutes. . ' You're missing the point.....again! No one, I repeat, NO ONE is disputing the capabilities of steel. I have used steel for pigeons myself on many occasions. It's not about toxic or non toxic shot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, Feltwad said: I for one possess shotguns that are not steel proof which consist of both muzzle loaders and early breech loader these are the types that I have shot for the past 71 years if lead is banned it does not look good for me Feltwad Nobody has a crystal ball, and given the current political climate i has to be said anything is possible. But IN my opinion for what its worth, i do not think Non tox will be introduced for pigeon shooting in the New general licence due next week from DEFRA. But EU legislation as Some irish shooters looking at a lead ban, so watching what happens there might show what we might expect eventually. We dont want a lead ban we want to be able to carry on using lead if we need to. AS in your case or any number of us just like you. there are lead allternatives like bismuth which are excellent but are less ecconomical than lead. Lead is toxic, and at some point even if the next wave of EU legislation in Ireland does not sweep in here and take lead out, there will come a point where Lead will come under fire again. I am of the opinion that there are many of our number that use lead when we could use steel or other shot types to better effect. but stick to traditional lead mainly due to a lack of knowledge. And if more knowledge was available many shooters would actually chose some non tox over Lead on the effectiveness alone. But time will tell. 3 minutes ago, Scully said: You're missing the point.....again! No one, I repeat, NO ONE is disputing the capabilities of steel. I have used steel for pigeons myself on many occasions. It's not about toxic or non toxic shot! OK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 1 hour ago, old man said: Why introduce another stick for them to beat us with? How many possess shot guns not steel proofed? Bio wads and shells, more cost and disruption, where does it end? 1.I dont think they will introduce non tox for pigeons. And i fail to see how using more non tox than lead where and when we can and in what guns we can will give them ammunition again us using LEAD. 2. How many possess shot guns not steel proofed?. Not very many of us, normal steel proof is fine in most shotguns of modern type and any chokes normaly encountered without modification re prof or anything. Some guns wont handle steel, and as a community we who can use steel and other non tox should where and when they can, to try and reduce the amount of Lead which is toxic, we as a community put into the environment. This way we might just fend off an out and out lead ban. I am just one man, and i do not know of any other way other than reducing how much lead we put into the environment can help anymore. But others might have a better idea. Any better ideas for fending off an out and out lead ban? i am listening and i am sure a lot of others are. Ideas on a postcard please? 3. Plastic again is bad for the environment research is proving this, and i will admit its a hastle and might cost more, and i am using plastic. but if a bioderadable option becomes available i think it has the potential to at least clear our patch from that point on, i agree there are more plastic poluters that shooters but if we can go bio degradable at least yet again we can be seen to care. If they were there i honestly think i would use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 hello, the evidence will be in 10 years time when there will be very few song birds/ no dawn chorus/ no starlings doing those great cloud flights, then will be no need for Spring Watch or Packham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 I own ten shotguns; only one is steel shot proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, Scully said: I own ten shotguns; only one is steel shot proof. Steel proof perhaps but suitable for steel i doubt you have one not capable of shooting steel and that is still staying in the guidelines. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 27 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Steel proof perhaps but suitable for steel i doubt you have one not capable of shooting steel and that is still staying in the guidelines. . Yes, I shoot steel through all of them, even HP steel at times. I was responding to your sweeping generalisation that 'not very many of us' own shotguns unproved for steel. I realise I'm just one person, which isn't indicative of a census, but I'm willing to bet there are many of us out there. Like I said, it's not about the type of shot we use, and certainly not about lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 On 16/05/2019 at 08:14, Walker570 said: Fine on rifles as I use Barnes TSX and TTSX all copper bullets with great success, but shotgun loads are different. Just think of the thousands of beautiful and not so beautiful shotguns out there which will be for the scrap heap if we are pushed to shooting steel. I have shot a lot of bismuth and I am 'on the fence' regards it's killing ability, I'm not sure it is as good as lead shot. I understand what you're saying, but there are also an awful lot of shotguns that are suitable for steel that people won't use. I like steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Scully said: Yes, I shoot steel through all of them, even HP steel at times. I was responding to your sweeping generalisation that 'not very many of us' own shotguns unproved for steel. I realise I'm just one person, which isn't indicative of a census, but I'm willing to bet there are many of us out there. Like I said, it's not about the type of shot we use, and certainly not about lead. Only OLDUn knows what he meant by proofed for steel, if he was talking about Fleyr de leys all that swaddling type proofed steel, then i concede you are right i was i suppose being SWEEPING. But i think he simply meant capable suitable for steel shot use, HP and such steel is not what you would typicaly use on pigeons , so any steel suitable gun which the vast majority of guns today are suitable for standard steel. if bearing steel dedicated proof marks or not that was my point. But there was no point this is not about steel or lead as you keep reminding me is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 4 hours ago, old man said: Why introduce another stick for them to beat us with? How many possess shot guns not steel proofed? Bio wads and shells, more cost and disruption, where does it end? This has drifted off topic, but I will say it again - you don't need a steel proofed shotgun to use steel shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 so i ha a winchesther 101.a morku 3,000.and armsan A620.will all theses take steel shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 3 hours ago, lancer425 said: Nobody has a crystal ball, and given the current political climate i has to be said anything is possible. But IN my opinion for what its worth, i do not think Non tox will be introduced for pigeon shooting in the New general licence due next week from DEFRA. But EU legislation as Some irish shooters looking at a lead ban, so watching what happens there might show what we might expect eventually. We dont want a lead ban we want to be able to carry on using lead if we need to. AS in your case or any number of us just like you. there are lead allternatives like bismuth which are excellent but are less ecconomical than lead. Lead is toxic, and at some point even if the next wave of EU legislation in Ireland does not sweep in here and take lead out, there will come a point where Lead will come under fire again. I am of the opinion that there are many of our number that use lead when we could use steel or other shot types to better effect. but stick to traditional lead mainly due to a lack of knowledge. And if more knowledge was available many shooters would actually chose some non tox over Lead on the effectiveness alone. But time will tell. OK! I don't quite understand your logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, motty said: I don't quite understand your logic. You seem to be one of several perhaps many who dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: You seem to be one of several perhaps many who dont. I agree that steel is a great shot medium, but I don't understand why you seem to think that to save lead, we should more or less choose to give up using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, motty said: This has drifted off topic, but I will say it again - you don't need a steel proofed shotgun to use steel shot. What about my Army & Navy 16 gauge side by side which has it's original damascus barrels, am I suppose to forgo the pleasure of shooting that? When we consider just how many tons of lead shot there must be out there apart from wildfowl when did you last hear of anyone dying of lead poisoning from it? Edited May 18, 2019 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 Surely the debate is can we use lethal methods for the control of avian pests this should include traps nets firearms and shotguns and even catching with your hand and dispatch with a priest not the type of ammunition used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Walker570 said: What about my Army & Navy 16 gauge side by side which has it's original damascus barrels, am I suppose to forgo the pleasure of shooting that? When we consider just how many tons of lead shot there must be out there apart from wildfowl when did you last hear of anyone dying of lead poisoning from it? Did I mention anything about lead poisoning? What has your Damascus barrelled gun got to do with anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, motty said: I agree that steel is a great shot medium, but I don't understand why you seem to think that to save lead, we should more or less choose to give up using it. 48 minutes ago, motty said: I agree that steel is a great shot medium, but I don't understand why you seem to think that to save lead, we should more or less choose to give up using it. Radical i agree and it has a huge aliment of risk and relies very heavily on a compliant government with a sensible attitude to responsible shooters trying to reduce the amount of lead they put into the environment , and not just that they then have to accept that the very small amount of Lead they after more individually decide to use non tox is so insignificant that to help old guns and the occasional specialised use situation. they will leave lead in circulation, for us to use when we need to. This would involve a genuine move to non tox in many shooting sittuations by most shooters, but you know that is of course feasable in practice if not uptake. Getting shooters to do this wont be easy to verging on impossible but there you go. Its radical and i dont think i would get good odds from ladbrooks to get it through. But i dont have any other ideas. I like steel most do who use it, but i dont want steel to go. Think about it like this different i know but lead and no lead. You can still bbuy and use 4 star unleaded fuel for cars, but unleaded is the norm. but at least Leaded is there its not Banned. The concession was made for older cars why not guns . ? Edited May 18, 2019 by lancer425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted May 18, 2019 Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 31 minutes ago, Walker570 said: What about my Army & Navy 16 gauge side by side which has it's original damascus barrels, am I suppose to forgo the pleasure of shooting that? When we consider just how many tons of lead shot there must be out there apart from wildfowl when did you last hear of anyone dying of lead poisoning from it? I hear what you are saying but we need a bargaining point, or a compliant government to keep Lead, lead is toxic the fact anything died of it or not, its still being put into the environment by us and we are not popular bunnies any more. We need to come up with a cunning plan before they take lead altogether. My plan of who can use it should use it might just help you keep that old 16 knocking them down, thats if we are actually still allowed to shoot anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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