pinfireman Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: That's not how Dominic Cummings told it but fair enough. In that case the public should use the EU elections as a vote for Brexit and, based on your reasoning, the vote for them should be well above a third, at least 40% perhaps? In doing so they should be aware that they are voting for a WTO Brexit as this is the stated aim of Farage. To quote Nigel Farage, WTO is better than a bad deal!" And he is right! 7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Thanks for the link, I have read excerpts but not the entire document. Eye opening indeed. But, that's not the point here, the point is proving whether or not something attributed to someone is true or not. Have you read the various rebuttals of us being lied to/ misled on this, including the one from Richard Corbett? Do you subscribe to the motto that "one document doth not a conspiracy prove"? Richard Corbett? Wow, that,s unbiased..............not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I asked two simple questions: Is there proof that Monnet actually said what is attributed to him, again on the basis that it is being formalised into fact by a certain agenda - it's a simple question requiring a yes or no answer. Was there a plan / blue print all along or was there not - again a simple question best answered with a yes or no. On your first point I have no idea whether Monnet actually said what has been attributed to him, it wouldn't surprise me but with no proof it goes into my 'ignore bin'. On your second point however I can categorically state that there is, and always has been a plan for a federalised Europe. Robert Shuman's declaration, written jointly with Jean Monnet makes quite clear the plan for federalisation. The declaration led to the formation of the European Steel and Coal Community, which in turn led to the EEC, which morphed into the EU. It has always been the aim of the federalists to 'break' the nation states of Europe and bring them all together under a centralised control structure. It's been plain to see from day one, it's made quite clear in all the treaties where all this is leading, and yes, we have sleepwalked into it. It was easy for our treacherous 'leaders' to hoodwink us into believing it was a good thing and nothing to worry about, as they signed over the country to a foreign power in Brussels. It was easy because for most of the time parliament wasn't televised, we didn't have 24 hr news and most importantly we didn't have the internet. Well we do now, and we can SEE what's happening on a daily basis, we can read and hear from a huge number of news sources, not just the BBC and the old broadsheets. In fact the link below re the Shuman Declaration comes from the EU's own website, we could never have seen that a few years ago. Maybe if we could have we wouldn't have voted to remain in the EEC in 1975. https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/doc/questions-d-europe/qe-204-en.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: To be honest I have no idea. Does the document also not state that we would have stronger international standing by being part of the EU compared to not being a member? Which turned out to be a load of bovine scat. 7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I've not read enough of it to draw a conclusion either way, I will try to soon, but I'd taken it as one persons view of what may pan out. Isn't there a problem here though, if the take from this document is that there was a plan and we were deceived / lied to from the off then isn't that in direct contradiction to what many have stated here in that there was no blue print for the EU and it grew into the monster it is today by organic development and corruption. Surely there either was a blue print / plan or there wasn't, the two positions can't both be correct, can they? I seriously doubt it was one persons point of view, as the senior levels of the Civil Service, as well as the politicians.were involved in putting this document together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I asked two simple questions: Is there proof that Monnet actually said what is attributed to him, again on the basis that it is being formalised into fact by a certain agenda - it's a simple question requiring a yes or no answer. Was there a plan / blue print all along or was there not - again a simple question best answered with a yes or no. You've responded to my questions with a load more questions... But they are pertinent to the questions you asked! 6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I don't think Occams razor is going to give you the answers from me you are hoping for:-P Applying that principle to the proof of the Monnet quote - I would conclude the proof does not exist Applying the same principle to whether or not there was a plan all along or it just happened by accident - I would conclude it happened by accident. Both conclusions thoroughly consistent with the theory as each require less effort, coordination and therefore complication than their alternative conclusions. Sorry, but conspiracies are often complicated. 4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Good because your constant judgement on ones understanding, logic and sporadic glimpses of intelligence are all rather tiresome. Judgements I suspect you have no formal qualifications in to justify making. Since when did anyone need formal qualifications to sniff out the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: And you then go on to do / say what, yet again, priceless. Read back through what you just posted, you really couldn't make it up. And you have the front to judge my logic and reasoning but hey, it's your right. Sounds like you've indirectly confirmed my suspicion was correct. PS - citing occams razor really was analogous to a negligent discharge (into ones own foot) Occams Razor says "The simplest explanation is USUALLY, the correct one"! It does NOT say that it is ALWAYS the correct one! 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: Agreed it doesn't really matter except that I was querying the authenticity of the Monnet quote and therefore the validity of using it to promote Brexit based on it being claimed to be a fact. It was "alleged" to have been said of Monet....but if we were taking bets, the odds would be on it being fact! 26 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Chukka Umuna tonight on a Change UK party election broadcast; I quote, " ....... so lets have a Peoples Vote and stop Britain leaving the EU." So he will hold a vote - and stop Britain leaving the EU, apparently taking no account that the vote might actually say "leave" - or will leave not feature in the vote? The man is an idiot. True! He is.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 Whilst this should be in the Jokes forum, I do think it is more pertinent to our discussions on here! Blessed are those that can give without remembering, and take without forgetting. One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut. After the cut, he asked about his bill, and the barber replied, 'I cannot accept money from you, I'm doing community service this week.' The florist was pleased and left the shop. When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a 'thank you' card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door. Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from you, I'm doing community service this week.' The cop was happy and left the shop. The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a 'thank you ' card and a dozen donuts waiting for him at his door. Then a MP came in for a haircut, and when he went to pay his bill , the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week.' The MP was very happy and left the shop The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen MPs lined up waiting for a free haircut. And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it. *As Margaret Thatcher said: Both politicians and nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason!* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Newbie to this said: Are you forgetting that it has already been tried twice in the not so distant past, we, with help from our allies stopped it both times, with any luck, we will thwart it a third time. I really don't think it's appropriate to cite the wars in making a case for or against the EU or Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, pinfireman said: They included it in their manifestos, because they did not want the public to believe they were the "bad guys"...............which they were! Which ever one of the two main parties showed direct opposition to Brexit, would have committed political suicide......but they still intended to thwart the will of the people. And for that, they should be booted out of Parliament! We did not struggle for centuries, to get universal suffrage, only for a bunch of political crooks to take it away from us. Wherever I go, and whoever I talk to, I have never seen such anger against the government AND the Opposition! Whatever happens now over Brexit, you can bet your bottom dollar that scalps will be taken at the next General Election. I've just spent an hour with someone who voted for Brexit but did not believe me when I told them there are people out there who believe what you have posted above. That same person also said that whilst they voted for and still want Brexit they would never vote for a party headed up by Nigel Farage. And still NO PROOF he did not! But given his history, and his writings and speeches, the betting is that he did indeed say it! Love the bit "David Price, an eminent EUROPEAN historian"....no bias there? A bit like calling David Irving a "Holocaust" historian. So you're endorsing projecting something someone may have said as fact to further a certain cause. Sorry, but there is no way you could change my mind on this, so it might save a bit of wear on your keyboard if we continue to disagree. I know better than to try to change your mind. 50 minutes ago, pinfireman said: To quote Nigel Farage, WTO is better than a bad deal!" And he is right! One of the few things I agree with him on but WTO will only happen by accident or him getting to No.10 - not happening. Richard Corbett? Wow, that,s unbiased..............not! Of course it's biased - show me a commentary that isn't. 48 minutes ago, pinfireman said: Which turned out to be a load of bovine scat. OK, so we're back to only taking the bits we like the sound of - confirmation bias tastic! I seriously doubt it was one persons point of view, as the senior levels of the Civil Service, as well as the politicians.were involved in putting this document together. Like I said, I've not enough of it to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 44 minutes ago, pinfireman said: But they are pertinent to the questions you asked! I think you know the established protocol, but OK. Sorry, but conspiracies are often complicated. Of course they are, and the more complicated they are the more they appeal to those predisposed to believe them (I'm talking generically here). Since when did anyone need formal qualifications to sniff out the truth? Congratulations on joining the club! 41 minutes ago, pinfireman said: Occams Razor says "The simplest explanation is USUALLY, the correct one"! It does NOT say that it is ALWAYS the correct one! I'm aware of that, but thanks. It was "alleged" to have been said of Monet....but if we were taking bets, the odds would be on it being fact! What odds would you like, I'll happily stand up any amount you'd like to deposit with me on it 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 Tony Blair seems to be softening in leaving with no deal, he now says, if we tumble out and not crash out. Seems a bit nearer the truth than usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, poontang said: On your first point I have no idea whether Monnet actually said what has been attributed to him, it wouldn't surprise me but with no proof it goes into my 'ignore bin'. On your second point however I can categorically state that there is, and always has been a plan for a federalised Europe. Robert Shuman's declaration, written jointly with Jean Monnet makes quite clear the plan for federalisation. The declaration led to the formation of the European Steel and Coal Community, which in turn led to the EEC, which morphed into the EU. It has always been the aim of the federalists to 'break' the nation states of Europe and bring them all together under a centralised control structure. It's been plain to see from day one, it's made quite clear in all the treaties where all this is leading, and yes, we have sleepwalked into it. It was easy for our treacherous 'leaders' to hoodwink us into believing it was a good thing and nothing to worry about, as they signed over the country to a foreign power in Brussels. It was easy because for most of the time parliament wasn't televised, we didn't have 24 hr news and most importantly we didn't have the internet. Well we do now, and we can SEE what's happening on a daily basis, we can read and hear from a huge number of news sources, not just the BBC and the old broadsheets. In fact the link below re the Shuman Declaration comes from the EU's own website, we could never have seen that a few years ago. Maybe if we could have we wouldn't have voted to remain in the EEC in 1975. https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/doc/questions-d-europe/qe-204-en.pdf Thanks for the link. And you are definitely correct about the availability of information that is available to us now compared to in the past. I'm still not sure about the narrative around treachery and hoodwinking but I guess that's all about perspective, so fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 If Change UK really are a sad bunch of losers then I guess Farage will have no issue accepting their challenge to debate with them this Friday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If Change UK really are a sad bunch of losers then I guess Farage will have no issue accepting their challenge to debate with them this Friday... Why would he not ? I'm sure he'd look forward to it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Why would he not ? I'm sure he'd look forward to it ! I look forward to seeing that discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, Good shot? said: I look forward to seeing that discussion. If AS is on he will not get an uninterrupted word in edgewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: If AS is on he will not get an uninterrupted word in edgewise. He did with Andrew Mar, but yes Soubry may be a different kettle of fish I agree. Edited May 13, 2019 by Good shot? Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Good shot? said: He did with Andrew Mar, but yes Soubry may be a diferent kettle of fish I agree. Yes, she complains about bullying and then does it to anyone who disagrees with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: I really don't think it's appropriate to cite the wars in making a case for or against the EU or Brexit. Why not? What's inappropriate about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 The Tories have now fallen to the bottom of the pile...rock bottom...in polling for the 23rd, below ALL other parties. Brexit Party is now at 34% almost double the Labour figure. Bring it on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Walker570 said: The Tories have now fallen to the bottom of the pile...rock bottom...in polling for the 23rd, below ALL other parties. Brexit Party is now at 34% almost double the Labour figure. Bring it on Its high time the former mainstream politrical parties got a real world wake up call regarding how the plebs feel about their lying self serving ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 12 hours ago, pinfireman said: Whilst this should be in the Jokes forum, I do think it is more pertinent to our discussions on here! Blessed are those that can give without remembering, and take without forgetting. One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut. After the cut, he asked about his bill, and the barber replied, 'I cannot accept money from you, I'm doing community service this week.' The florist was pleased and left the shop. When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a 'thank you' card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door. Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from you, I'm doing community service this week.' The cop was happy and left the shop. The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a 'thank you ' card and a dozen donuts waiting for him at his door. Then a MP came in for a haircut, and when he went to pay his bill , the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week.' The MP was very happy and left the shop The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen MPs lined up waiting for a free haircut. And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it. *As Margaret Thatcher said: Both politicians and nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason!* 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 13 hours ago, Rewulf said: Why would he not ? I'm sure he'd look forward to it ! He should and I would hope he will. We should all look forward to it with the hope that the performance of the "referee" is not the main talking point afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 12 hours ago, Newbie to this said: Why not? What's inappropriate about it? So, you're likening Brexit to a world war? I get the analogy of Brussels wanting political control over us but by citing the two world wars aren't you really pointing the finger directly at Germany, just as others have done here by citing the EU as the Fourth Reich. War rhetoric, how far do you want to go down that road, are you suggesting that by delivering Brexit we'll prevent millions of Brits perishing in concentration camps? I would hope surely not and this is why I don't think it's helpful nor appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: So, you're likening Brexit to a world war? I get the analogy of Brussels wanting political control over us but by citing the two world wars aren't you really pointing the finger directly at Germany, just as others have done here by citing the EU as the Fourth Reich. War rhetoric, how far do you want to go down that road, are you suggesting that by delivering Brexit we'll prevent millions of Brits perishing in concentration camps? I would hope surely not and this is why I don't think it's helpful nor appropriate. I'm not likening Brexit to a world war, I'm likening the EU's push for power and control to the Germans in the wars. I was mearly pointing out that it has been tried before, all be it by different means. Doesn't make it any less relevant. As for concentration camps, I never mentioned them. And let's not forget that the EU are pushing for an Army and removing support for NATO. There is a myth that the EU is responsible for peace, they are NOT it is NATO and the UN. So in my view it is entirely relevant and appropriate. And I do believe that after their defeat in WW2 some high ranking German (can't remember who) said 'Germany will still rule Europe, it will just take time' or something like it. (or maybe that is just another myth, not sure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 23 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: I'm not likening Brexit to a world war, I'm likening the EU's push for power and control to the Germans in the wars. I was mearly pointing out that it has been tried before, all be it by different means. Doesn't make it any less relevant. As for concentration camps, I never mentioned them. And let's not forget that the EU are pushing for an Army and removing support for NATO. There is a myth that the EU is responsible for peace, they are NOT it is NATO and the UN. Absolutely correct. The more prominent mouth pieces of the EU are constantly harping on about 'combating the rise of nationalism' and the scourge of the 'far right' as in, anyone that doesnt agree with the concept of the superstate, and the eradication of the nation state. Whilst some might consider this to be anti fascist in its ideology, it is anything but, when you try to FORCE a people to accept an ideology that denies them the right to choose how they live their lives, you have created the ground works for totalitarianism , and everything that goes with it. At the moment , the EU has words, and a limited economic whip, for it to flourish and grow into the creature it desires to be, it requires a more blunt instrument, an army. As we discovered last time we had to fight Germany and its allies, complacency in the early days, lead to near catastrophe later. Its just a sleepwalk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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