Brexit - merged threads

[Newbie to this]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Normally ignore online insults and bullies Vince but on occasion we all respond back in kind. Unless you're suggesting it's OK to insult me because my views differ to the majority of those expressed on this thread...

Who insulted you? And how?

If you are talking about Gordon R implying that maybe it is you with a lower intelligence, then maybe it was in reply to your same suggestion about 17.4 million below.

 

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

An insight into the crystal clear coherent thought process of a Brexiteer?

Those in glass houses.

[Gordon R]

Newbie to this - it's a bit too subtle for him.

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Normally ignore online insults and bullies Vince but on occasion we all respond back in kind. Unless you're suggesting it's OK to insult me because my views differ to the majority of those expressed on this thread...

No but you devalue your own credibility by taking swipes. In a previous life I did a lot of training on conflict and its resolution. One of the things I learned was that as soon as anybody lost their temper and/or starts 'shouting' everybody stops listening to what's being said.(watch Jeremy Kyle)

Insults count as shouting

Now I believe we should leave the EU but I believe that because, my assessment is, that the EU is broken beyond redemption. It was never constructed with a proper blueprint and at least ten of the members were allowed to join when they blatently didn't meet the conditions for membership and now have equal voting rights despite making no financial contribution but now over rule us on every issue .

The single market doesn't benefit both sides, it only ever benefits the seller nation. The buyer nation is disadvantaged by the same amount, and to the same extent financially. We are now trading between £70-100 billion adverse so how is that, in any way, good for us? In simple terms its not

Yet we pay a huge subscription to be a member of a club with no benefits for us, roughly a million pounds a day in hard cash, and part of our subscription goes to French, Spanish and Italian farmers who are fraudulently, and cynically claiming huge subsidies they are not entitled to. A lot of the rest of our money goes not to promote growth or expansion but just to sustain corrupt and lazy practices. 

Why can Germany and France flood us with their cars despite the fact we could buy cars cheaper from Japan, USA or Korea but are not allowed to without the EU  putting a 10.8% tariff on cars that WE buy. Nothing to do with them.  And we don't see the 10.8% that's yet another stealth tax by the EU

I have looked at this long and hard but I can't see what the remainers appear to be able to see, ie a good side to the arrangement. For us its just pay pay pay and lose lose lose .

If you want to engage on this as a discussion, feel free but don't tell me I am a thick middle aged white racist who doesn't understand because that's the Lib Dems view and one day soon that is going to come back and bite them. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Vince Green

[Newbie to this]

 

 

From BBC 4's documentary, Brexit behind closed doors.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Newbie to this

[old man]

Still waiting for your reforms Raja, are you still all at sea?😰

[Raja Clavata]

13 hours ago, Vince Green said:

No but you devalue your own credibility by taking swipes. In a previous life I did a lot of training on conflict and its resolution. One of the things I learned was that as soon as anybody lost their temper and/or starts 'shouting' everybody stops listening to what's being said.(watch Jeremy Kyle)

Insults count as shouting

Agreed but I'm still perplexed as to why you're pulling me up on my dismissive insult which was posted in response to an insult to me in the first place, but anyway.

I am on a busy schedule this weekend but will reply on the other points you raise when I'm back at my computer.

13 hours ago, Vince Green said:

If you want to engage on this as a discussion, feel free but don't tell me I am a thick middle aged white racist who doesn't understand because that's the Lib Dems view and one day soon that is going to come back and bite them. 

Just quickly, who has told you that this is what you are?

[Raja Clavata]

15 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Who insulted you? And how?

If you are talking about Gordon R implying that maybe it is you with a lower intelligence, then maybe it was in reply to your same suggestion about 17.4 million below.

 

Those in glass houses.

If I was addressing all brexiteers I would have used the word "all" rather than "a". Anyway not important.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, old man said:

Still waiting for your reforms Raja, are you still all at sea?😰

I will reply in length later (assuming you are actually interested in the views of lower intelligence life-form like me). There is a lot of material on this in the public domain with varying degrees of impartiality and bias. But one of the key tenets of driving constructive reform within any organisation is to remain within it.

[Newbie to this]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If I was addressing all brexiteers I would have used the word "all" rather than "a". Anyway not important.

Semantics.

It is important, you can't insult people, then moan when others insult you.

[JohnfromUK]

14 hours ago, Vince Green said:

don't tell me I am a thick middle aged white racist who doesn't understand because that's the Lib Dems view and one day soon that is going to come back and bite them.

The Liberals (pre Lib Dems) always used to have a very unpleasant 'pressure group' within who were very radical, anti-semitic and effectively communist.  Peter Hain was a leading member.  They campaigned on issues like anti apartheid, anti Israel, CND etc. Jeremy Thorpe tried to remove them, in much the same way as the Labour leaders of the day (Callaghan, Kinnock) tried to remove the hard left Communist 'Socialist Workers Party' and 'Militant Tendency' etc. from the Labour Party.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_of_Young_Liberals

Sadly we now see the Labour Party have welcomed them back (now renamed 'Momentum') and the traditional working man's old Labour Party is now the vehicle of the rich and resentful hard left 'Champagne Socialist' set who are at the core of Momentum.  Virtually none of the current Labour leadership, or Momentum 'seniors' have ever been real 'working people'.

Similarly the LibDems under the senile Cable (who was a failed Labour candidate at one time) seem to be letting the radicals take over again - with 'Environmentalists causes' taking the old 'anti apartheid' theme.

Edited May 11, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But one of the key tenets of driving constructive reform within any organisation is to remain within it.

What a strange logic.
You are of course assuming that the partner wishes to stay within the organisation, in this case we have opted to leave.

We have opted to leave because attempts to reform whilst a member have achieved nothing.
Despite the fact that we are the 3rd biggest contributor, our voice seems to carry far less weight than tiny countries like Luxembourg ?

You talk of 'constructive' reform, when the stated aim of the EU , despite the wishes to the contrary from members, is to de-construct their nations and pass their laws to central EU government.
As stated, reform within or without the bloc is IMPOSSIBLE.
The march toward the superstate is inexorable, the EU doesnt want to relinquish powers, or relax its grip, it wants MORE power, more control, and more frighteningly it is seeking the means to ENFORCE that power, as it realises its legal clout , is simply not enough, when members can simply walk away if they choose.

This is the bit you dont understand.
There is far more to Brexit than just a nation deciding , democratically, to leave.
If we can do it, so can others , and the project will fall.

The EU project is a long game, with an end goal, and I believe , was set to a strict timetable.
Slow enough to not seem blatently obvious, but fast enough to bring it about within the lifetimes of some of its designers, it is massively behind schedule.
This is where the cracks are showing now , as they attempt to bring it to conclusion, mistakes are being made , and the veil is lifting.

Without getting too conspiratorial, this has woken a lot of people up, including myself, to what is really happening.

So when you talk about reforming from within, you are suggesting how the prison is run, from within your jail cell.
When all the time , you are holding the keys in your hand.

[Raja Clavata]

On 10/05/2019 at 17:35, Gordon R said:

You rarely, if ever, answer a point, but resort to being silly. It says everything about you and your "great contributions".

Answer the point. If it genuinely was mission impossible, why are you the only person who sees it that way?

Is it not a bit silly to ask a question, throw in an insult and expect a decent response.

As I have said before you are demonstrably everything you accuse me and others of plus some more. Lowest of the low as far as I'm concerned.

[Raja Clavata]

6 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Semantics.

It is important, you can't insult people, then moan when others insult you.

Semantics are important too.

I agree with you in general, and to do so would be hypocritical, but in the specific context here Pinfireman and I have discussed numerous aspects of this topic, agreed on some points and differed on others. The interactions I have had with him which border on insults have been largely banter as far as I'm concerned and I doubt very much he took particular issue at the latest poke I made at him. If I stand corrected I will happily apologise.

On the other hand, the other poster has added nothing to the discussion that I can see and rather than question the opinions of those who differ to his instead repeatedly resorts to personal insults and character assassination. Not very nice at all and rather unjustified in my view.

Personally speaking, my own ethos on posting is that I do not post online comments that I would not say to an individuals face.

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

What a strange logic.

Please explain what is strange in the logic that a key tenet of driving constructive reform within any organisation is to remain within it? 

[Gordon R]

Raja - forget your petty insults. Just answer why it is mission impossible to leave the EU? It might be difficult, but impossible suggests a closed mind and very limited thinking.

[old man]

6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I will reply in length later (assuming you are actually interested in the views of lower intelligence life-form like me). There is a lot of material on this in the public domain with varying degrees of impartiality and bias. But one of the key tenets of driving constructive reform within any organisation is to remain within it.

How do you construe from my simple question asking for clarification of your view that i consider you to be of lower intelligence?

I am of the personal opinion that we should have left on the date specified to restore the democracy that that people voted for.

It is plain to me that the reform from within that you propose is clearly impossible,  they do not negotiate just aim to subjugate.

 

 

 

[Rewulf]

46 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Please explain what is strange in the logic that a key tenet of driving constructive reform within any organisation is to remain within it?

This is a good example of why you struggle with this discussion.

Tunnel vision, you refuse to see the error of the statement. I did explain it , but you couldn't see the answer, as you dont want to, or you dont hold any value for my conflicting opinion. 

It's not a key tenet for starters, an organisation can easily be reformed from outside , have you never taken advice from someone who does not have any real connection to you? Do businesses and indeed governments , not pay for analysis and helpful data?

The organisation needs to WANT to reform , does not the patient need to realise it is sick before it seeks treatment? 

 

[pinfireman]

On 10/05/2019 at 17:10, Raja Clavata said:

Sorry but I owe you nothing pal, not sure who you think you are making demands on me to reply.

I didn't think it was necessary to define the compelling case, it's what we've been discussing here. What you will have as a concerted effort by parliament to subvert democracy and what I assert is trying to deliver the impossible. 

So you assert that there is a compelling case, but cannot, or will not define it? It nullifys your comment?

On 10/05/2019 at 17:10, Raja Clavata said:

Sorry but I owe you nothing pal, not sure who you think you are making demands on me to reply.

I didn't think it was necessary to define the compelling case, it's what we've been discussing here. What you will have as a concerted effort by parliament to subvert democracy and what I assert is trying to deliver the impossible. 

And I do not believe I,m your "pal". After all, we hardly know each other....................

On 10/05/2019 at 17:24, Rewulf said:

Here you go , a red bus with some remainer truths on it , to balance things out..Oh wait 

Excellent! I,m going to copy it, and stick it in the vehicle rear window, for all to see!

[pinfireman]

On 10/05/2019 at 18:18, oowee said:

😋

I see it takes very little to make you smile? Because that WAS very little.........................

On 10/05/2019 at 18:30, Vince Green said:

Do you think that is the way to have your contribution taken seriously?

Vince, It would seem that personal insults have become a one-way street.

On 10/05/2019 at 18:49, old man said:

Sadly and seriously, you are of the opinion that reform of the EU is possible from within? Pray tell how?

Perhaps he also believes the earth is flat? I.m given to understand that some people still do....

[pinfireman]

22 hours ago, Vince Green said:

No but you devalue your own credibility by taking swipes. In a previous life I did a lot of training on conflict and its resolution. One of the things I learned was that as soon as anybody lost their temper and/or starts 'shouting' everybody stops listening to what's being said.(watch Jeremy Kyle)

Insults count as shouting

Now I believe we should leave the EU but I believe that because, my assessment is, that the EU is broken beyond redemption. It was never constructed with a proper blueprint and at least ten of the members were allowed to join when they blatently didn't meet the conditions for membership and now have equal voting rights despite making no financial contribution but now over rule us on every issue .

The single market doesn't benefit both sides, it only ever benefits the seller nation. The buyer nation is disadvantaged by the same amount, and to the same extent financially. We are now trading between £70-100 billion adverse so how is that, in any way, good for us? In simple terms its not

Yet we pay a huge subscription to be a member of a club with no benefits for us, roughly a million pounds a day in hard cash, and part of our subscription goes to French, Spanish and Italian farmers who are fraudulently, and cynically claiming huge subsidies they are not entitled to. A lot of the rest of our money goes not to promote growth or expansion but just to sustain corrupt and lazy practices. 

Why can Germany and France flood us with their cars despite the fact we could buy cars cheaper from Japan, USA or Korea but are not allowed to without the EU  putting a 10.8% tariff on cars that WE buy. Nothing to do with them.  And we don't see the 10.8% that's yet another stealth tax by the EU

I have looked at this long and hard but I can't see what the remainers appear to be able to see, ie a good side to the arrangement. For us its just pay pay pay and lose lose lose .

If you want to engage on this as a discussion, feel free but don't tell me I am a thick middle aged white racist who doesn't understand because that's the Lib Dems view and one day soon that is going to come back and bite them. 

This is an excellent post, and I fervently hope that the person it is directed at answers each and every point clearly, and in detail................I hope that, but I,m not holding my breath!

21 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

 

 

From BBC 4's documentary, Brexit behind closed doors.

I saw this, it sickened me to think that some Brits will go along with this..............

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The Liberals (pre Lib Dems) always used to have a very unpleasant 'pressure group' within who were very radical, anti-semitic and effectively communist.  Peter Hain was a leading member.  They campaigned on issues like anti apartheid, anti Israel, CND etc. Jeremy Thorpe tried to remove them, in much the same way as the Labour leaders of the day (Callaghan, Kinnock) tried to remove the hard left Communist 'Socialist Workers Party' and 'Militant Tendency' etc. from the Labour Party.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_of_Young_Liberals

Sadly we now see the Labour Party have welcomed them back (now renamed 'Momentum') and the traditional working man's old Labour Party is now the vehicle of the rich and resentful hard left 'Champagne Socialist' set who are at the core of Momentum.  Virtually none of the current Labour leadership, or Momentum 'seniors' have ever been real 'working people'.

Similarly the LibDems under the senile Cable (who was a failed Labour candidate at one time) seem to be letting the radicals take over again - with 'Environmentalists causes' taking the old 'anti apartheid' theme.

First class! Right to the point!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The LUNATICS have taken over the ASYLUM!

[pinfireman]

This is a quote attributed to Jean Monet, the so-called "father of the EU"

Jean Monnet > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

― Jean Monnet

Edited May 11, 2019 by pinfireman

[12gauge82]

56 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

This is a quote attributed to Jean Monet, the so-called "father of the EU"

Jean Monnet > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

― Jean Monnet

But hang on, it's the remainers who are enlightened and intelligent, us leavers are the thiko's, surely Jean Monnet wouldn't have said that or the remainers would have seen through him and what he was up to!

[old man]

13 hours ago, pinfireman said:

This is a quote attributed to Jean Monet, the so-called "father of the EU"

Jean Monnet > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

― Jean Monnet

I wasn't aware of this quote, but if true it makes the sanity of our politicians who led us in to this debacle even more questionable? A crime of Treason barely covers it?

 

What on earth could be a sane reason for that? Mind numbing?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, old man said:

I wasn't aware of this quote, but if true it makes the sanity of our politicians who led us in to this debacle even more questionable? A crime of Treason barely covers it?

 

What on earth could be a sane reason for that? Mind numbing?

I think you will find that the over-riding hope was peace, no more world wars by allying every country to each other.

 

Unfortunately it all went a little too far, with the upper echelons seeing it as their way to rule the peace and make their fortunes at our expense.