Turtle doves.

[manthing]

Where they on the old GL. I can't remember but don't think they were. 

I know they aren't on the new ones. 

Asking because the EU are stepping in to save them, apparently from farming and hunting. 

Not read the full artical yet. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/25/eu-acts-to-protect-future-of-bird-facing-extinction-in-uk

[Papercase]

Manthing,

You are aware current estimates put UK turtle dove numbers in the few thousands and have declined approximately 94% since 1995? 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Papercase

[manthing]

Thanks for taking the time to answer, but the point I'm trying to get to is that the EU are blaming hunting and I can't recall them ever being on the GL, and so would like to put the record straight. 

If not on the old GL, any shot in the uk would be illegally shot and no amount of legislation will stop the idiots that break the law anyway. 

Please can you confirm if in fact they where not on the old GL. Seemed a simple enough request to clarify my initial thoughts. 😉

[chesterse]

They have been protected since at least the 1980s. Seems their biggest losses come from shooting during migration in Spain and France.

The ones that do make it have to contend with increased numbers of flying predators in the UK.

Have not seen one for about 10 years in our part of S.Lincs. 

[scolopax]

I believe Collared Doves are not on the new GL, maybe you are thinking of these?

As already stated the UK Turtle Doves are in a terrible state, huge population crash in the last 30 years.  They are quarry species in other parts of Europe and large numbers are / were shot on migration through the Mediterranean countries. 

[Westley]

I think the hunting is relating to Europe but in particular, Malta. There is a Youtube vid reporting that Mr. Peckem has been trying to get the Maltese to stop their annual shooting season on Turtle doves. This has made the Maltese cross. Mr. Peckem is surprisingly blaming shooting for their decline.

[JTaylor91]

I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen a turtle dove. Or not that I can remember. 

[old'un]

The EU were going on about giving the Turtle Dove more protection in parts of the EU 10 years ago, think the problem is in some EU countries where hunting is allowed, Portugal, Spain, Malta, France, Italy, Cyprus, Greece, and Austria, where between 2 and 4 million birds are shot annually, think the Turtle Dove as always been protected in the UK, as is Rock and Stock Doves.

[Papercase]

I haven't seen a turtle dove and I intend to in the coming year or so - at least to hear one as they can be difficult to see.  Our European friends shoot a number of birds that surprise me - curlew in France especially. I seem to recall that that the fall in numbers has been significantly more in the UK compared to other countries - most likely as a result of farming intensification. The Knepp Project has been the only project to reverse this trend though a type of rewilding. All very interesting stuff and well worth keeping an eye on - it would be a terrible shame if they were lost in this country forever.

[TIDES EDGE]

Turtle Doves have never been on the list of birds that can be shot even back in the 60s when there were plenty about they were protected.

I  saw one in Kent last week the first for several years  maybe a good thing that collard doves are now protected as some people have a problem telling them apart from Turtle Doves .

 

[manthing]

Thanks for the replies and confirmation. Having had time now to read the artical it seems our farming practices are the problem and they are hunted by various means in other parts of the EU... 

We have some of the most stringent farming rules in the EU but its still our farmers sharing blame with the netters and shooters in other countries.... 

It does seem all EU members don't work to the same welfare and standard practices. 

[Robertt]

Apparently the one's that arrive here are just not breeding well.

I have heard of the odd sighting ( South Lanc's ) but I havn't seen one for 30 ish years.

Environmentally I think things are changing subtly which must have a knock on effect.

I vividly remember in the 80's using a hot soapy sponge, to remove insects off the front of the car and windscreen, which doesn't happen anymore ! ?

[Penelope]

36 minutes ago, TIDES EDGE said:

Turtle Doves have never been on the list of birds that can be shot even back in the 60s when there were plenty about they were protected.

I  saw one in Kent last week the first for several years  maybe a good thing that collard doves are now protected as some people have a problem telling them apart from Turtle Doves .

 

Thing is, I suspect Collards out compete Turtles for the same habitat.

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, Robertt said:

Apparently the one's that arrive here are just not breeding well.

I have heard of the odd sighting ( South Lanc's ) but I havn't seen one for 30 ish years.

Environmentally I think things are changing subtly which must have a knock on effect.

I vividly remember in the 80's using a hot soapy sponge, to remove insects off the front of the car and windscreen, which doesn't happen anymore ! ?

On my drive down to Dorset end of June there was no shortage of insects super glued to my windscreen and front grille.

[old'un]

54 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Thing is, I suspect Collards out compete Turtles for the same habitat.

EU study found some of the main reasons for its decline were…habitat loss in both its breeding and wintering areas, illegal killing and trapping during spring migration and in the breeding season, unsustainable hunting levels, disease Trichomoniasis (canker)

[martinj]

18 hours ago, JTaylor91 said:

I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen a turtle dove. Or not that I can remember. 

Those of us of a certain age will remember seeing them and hearing their distinctive sound regularly in the summer months, now I haven't seen one for yonks though I did hear one in Greywell Hants a couple of years ago.

[Penelope]

The last one that I saw and heard was at a friend's fishery in the Waveney Valley on the Suffolk/Norfolk border in May, 2015. I believe that I also saw a pair on my shoot in Essex in 2018, but it was a fleeting glimpse with no confirmed ID.

[Whitetail]

I don't know if any of you guys were shooting on swathed rape/ stubble back in the 1980s -90s but back then turtle doves at times would have outnumbered wood pigeon, things have certainly changed since then . I've seen maybe 5-6 this year . Stock doves were on the quarry list up until the early 1980s I used to get 5p each , I think pigeons were around 30p at the time 

[NatureBoy]

After i had set up near a spinney 2 weeks ago the first birds in to my decoys were a pair of turtle doves!  A first for me and will probably never happen again. As it was a slow day i was able to watch them and find location of another new nest site we didn't know about! This year is set to be the best year for attempted  breeding in my area. 18+ pairs that i know of. Some on second broods! Hear and see turtle doves almost daily and some times waking to there call. Much more importantly seeing young birds despite finding evidence of sparrow hawks having a go at them! Hopefuly now harvest well under way and more plant seeds about they have better chance. A lot of combined  effort is going in to helping them and getting numbers up including involving the RSPB! Creating maintaining and leaving the right habitat. Growing the right feed crops. Providing supplementary feeding when it is most important when they return and start breeding. Above all carrying out  pest control when necessary! All crow species predate a lot of of the first nests when there is less cover and they are feeding young. As they do many other birds! Squirrels another underrated problem predator. Collared doves will compete with them for food  territory and nest sites. These growing numbers are up locally because of the people that care about the countryside and real conservation on farms with shooting and pest control! Showing and educating others what can be achieved with a little effort. Even something as simple as  folk knowing what a turtle dove looks and sound like has lead to finding new breeding sites where they can be helped as they are very site specific and will return year after year.  Not sure fitting some of these such endangered birds with sat tags is the way to go! If you want to see/read whats being done to help them and other wildlife in my part of  Suffolk check out an article in the latest issue 2 of GWCTs  working conservationists!  Not a rural monied elite! Ordinary hard working shooters, conservationists and country people using/sharing all there combined knowledge to make a real difference!

Another protected dove doing well my way is the stock dove. Often coming in to decoys and causing confusion. Sometimes in large flocks. More confusing in my part of Suffolk and some of Norfolk is they have for a long time been called blue rocks? Tho i have never known why? Some even thinking that is the species name! Seen crows and squirrels actively hunt there nests in farm buildings.

If in doubt! Read the GL and brush up on bird recon! If still in doubt! Don't shoot!   

Other rarities seen around the newly created resviour on one of the farms have been common sandpipers and green shank. Along with hundreds of damsilflys and dozens of chasers and hawkers. Hobby's and little owls often having a go at them. Not many pigeons about tho.  This has got to be a record year for many insect numbers! I wonder why?    NB

[martinj]

"like"

[islandgun]

On 07/08/2019 at 00:52, NatureBoy said:

After i had set up near a spinney 2 weeks ago the first birds in to my decoys were a pair of turtle doves!  A first for me and will probably never happen again. As it was a slow day i was able to watch them and find location of another new nest site we didn't know about! This year is set to be the best year for attempted  breeding in my area. 18+ pairs that i know of. Some on second broods! Hear and see turtle doves almost daily and some times waking to there call. Much more importantly seeing young birds despite finding evidence of sparrow hawks having a go at them! Hopefuly now harvest well under way and more plant seeds about they have better chance. A lot of combined  effort is going in to helping them and getting numbers up including involving the RSPB! Creating maintaining and leaving the right habitat. Growing the right feed crops. Providing supplementary feeding when it is most important when they return and start breeding. Above all carrying out  pest control when necessary! All crow species predate a lot of of the first nests when there is less cover and they are feeding young. As they do many other birds! Squirrels another underrated problem predator. Collared doves will compete with them for food  territory and nest sites. These growing numbers are up locally because of the people that care about the countryside and real conservation on farms with shooting and pest control! Showing and educating others what can be achieved with a little effort. Even something as simple as  folk knowing what a turtle dove looks and sound like has lead to finding new breeding sites where they can be helped as they are very site specific and will return year after year.  Not sure fitting some of these such endangered birds with sat tags is the way to go! If you want to see/read whats being done to help them and other wildlife in my part of  Suffolk check out an article in the latest issue 2 of GWCTs  working conservationists!  Not a rural monied elite! Ordinary hard working shooters, conservationists and country people using/sharing all there combined knowledge to make a real difference!

Another protected dove doing well my way is the stock dove. Often coming in to decoys and causing confusion. Sometimes in large flocks. More confusing in my part of Suffolk and some of Norfolk is they have for a long time been called blue rocks? Tho i have never known why? Some even thinking that is the species name! Seen crows and squirrels actively hunt there nests in farm buildings.

If in doubt! Read the GL and brush up on bird recon! If still in doubt! Don't shoot!   

Other rarities seen around the newly created resviour on one of the farms have been common sandpipers and green shank. Along with hundreds of damsilflys and dozens of chasers and hawkers. Hobby's and little owls often having a go at them. Not many pigeons about tho.  This has got to be a record year for many insect numbers! I wonder why?    NB

good man, regarding blue rock, they are simply , Rock doves no idea why someone added the blue bit.. Rock doves are our most common dove here. then collared and the very occasional woodpigeon......... blue rock is the name given to a breed of hen 

[Penelope]

30 minutes ago, islandgun said:

good man, regarding blue rock, they are simply , Rock doves no idea why someone added the blue bit.. Rock doves are our most common dove here. then collared and the very occasional woodpigeon......... blue rock is the name given to a breed of hen 

There seem to be a lot of confusion between the Rock and Stock.

The Rock is the ancestor of the domestic pigeon in all it's guises, including the 'feral'.

[old'un]

35 minutes ago, islandgun said:

good man, regarding blue rock, they are simply , Rock doves no idea why someone added the blue bit.. Rock doves are our most common dove here. then collared and the very occasional woodpigeon......... blue rock is the name given to a breed of hen 

I’ve always known stock and rock doves as bluey’s, an old shooting mate from Staffordshire as always called them punkers, don’t ask me why as I have never asked him.

[old'un]

8 minutes ago, Penelope said:

There seem to be a lot of confusion between the Rock and Stock.

The Rock is the ancestor of the domestic pigeon in all it's guises, including the 'feral'.

That’s why I never shoot feral pigeons out on the stubbles, they could also be ringed racing pigeons.

I also wonder just how many shooters know the difference?

[Penelope]

8 minutes ago, old'un said:

That’s why I never shoot feral pigeons out on the stubbles, they could also be ringed racing pigeons.

I also wonder just how many shooters know the difference?

I have noticed on occasion that there has also been a bit of confusion between the Stock and immature Woody.