Brexit - merged threads

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, Scully said:

The bitterness and resentment of some of those who lost the vote is both very apparent and somewhat amusing. I’ve been called all manner of things for voting to leave, until I’ve explained why I voted to leave, and then they have realised I did so for none of the reasons they would expect. All of those I’ve spoken to whom voted to stay however, without exception,  did so for the very same reason, which was with their personal financial gain or loss uppermost in their minds. Pathetic. 

I doubt very much we are now going to leave the EU, or at least not in the true sense, but I won’t be bitter, as it won’t make the slightest bit of difference to me in any form as I have no vested interest in it financially. However, I genuinely believe the EU’s days are numbered; I just hope I’m still alive to see it crumble and break up. 

One thing I will never forgive however, is the cynical and insidious usurping of the democratic purpose by politicians. I won’t ever be voting again. 

Scully, I will continue to vote, but tactically! As will  a huge number of other disillusioned democrats!  What I find sad is that there are people who would put personal gain above the freedom and sovereignty of their country! And some of them are on here!

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Thats what they want you to do , youre one of the millions of wild card voters like myself they dont like.

Just remember these words and have faith.

"My name is Maximus Scullious Brexitus, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Cumbrian Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Nigellus Faragius. . And I will have my Brexit, in this referendum or the next."

😂

We WILL WIN, sooner or later! You cannot keep the people down forever!  Whatever happens in the next few weeks, the fight continues, to the bitter end! And some politicians are going to rue the day they tried to cheat us! It,s not over until the fat lady sings! (And I do not mean the Shadow Home Secretary!)

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Fixed it 😂

That,s better!

[pinfireman]

In an extraordinary article for leading German newspaper Handelsblatt entitled “Europe is forming an army”, Germany’s defence minister Ursula von der Leyen has hammered another nail in the Remain referendum lie that the idea of an EU army is a “dangerous fantasy”. It’s a dangerous reality…

 

The People’s Vote campaign was left humiliated this afternoon after the City of London Corporation has voted against agitating for a second referendum by two to one. Just 31 of the 100 Court of Common Council members voted for the motion, with 60 voting against it after what was described as “substantive debate.” If Remainers can’t even win in the City of London, a remainer stronghold, where can they?

 

[ShootingEgg]

8 hours ago, oowee said:

Some even fell for what Cameron told them 

Your right you could not make it up. 

Cameron clearly stated on tv so spoken and recorded, that it was an in out referedum with no going back. The people got the choice and that choice was to be stuck too. 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Cameron clearly stated on tv so spoken and recorded, that it was an in out referedum with no going back. The people got the choice and that choice was to be stuck too. 

No issue with leaving the EU as voted but anything else he suggested like half the stuff proposed was without authority. Read the thread you will see where it comes from. 

[ShootingEgg]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

No issue with leaving the EU as voted but anything else he suggested like half the stuff proposed was without authority. Read the thread you will see where it comes from. 

In or out. Its pretty clear what that means. And alot of garbage spouted by his remain cronies is still without authority. 

[oowee]

Agreed. Vote was leave the EU. Everything else is speculation. 

[12gauge82]

20 minutes ago, oowee said:

Agreed. Vote was leave the EU. Everything else is speculation. 

Mays deal is not leave the EU, if the back stop is triggered, which it will be as all the EU needs to do is not reach an agreement within the specified time with the UK, we will be tied to nearly everything being an EU member entails forevermore, do you really think that is us "leaving" the EU and the referendum result respected? 

[JohnfromUK]

10 hours ago, pinfireman said:

What I find sad is that there are people who would put personal gain above the freedom and sovereignty of their country! And some of them are on here!

I'm quite curious about this (and I'm not about to get personal about other people);

At present we have two parties who could form a government (none of the others (LibDem, UKIP,  Green) could ever expect a majority in Westminster, and would probably only ally with Labour).  Those parties are Tory and Labour.

It seems to me that on Brexit, we sort of know where the Tories are - which is 'lost' somewhere between May's poor deal, no deal, and ??  Labour (not at present having to 'follow through' on what they say) make various claims on being able to negotiate a better deal (which the EU say they can't give) based on staying in the single market, customs union and retaining free movement of people.  To me that is Brexit In Name Only (BRINO) and is worse than being IN.

So the reality is NEITHER party looks like it would deliver a true Brexit - even more so as Labour's 'allies' (the SNP and Greens and the Lib Dems who might well be needed to support them in a minority government) are all firm Remainers.

So the key question is If you feel that "the freedom and sovereignty of the country" (by which I assume you mean a clean break with the EU) is the most important issue - for whom do you vote?

On personal gain, I cannot see that the Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott's policies are likely to give personal gain to the vast majority of the population. Their economic policies would see the country's economic position worsen, (collapsing pound and stock market) which will end up bad for virtually all of us.  Their support for various terrorist groups would loose us allies in the world. 

From a purely personal point of view, my constituency has (as far as I know at present and unless anything unforeseen happens) two candidates who could realistically win; A LibDem who is firmly remain, and a Tory (the current MP) who is leave, but (I think) supports May's deal.  Labour get possibly 10% of the vote and UKIP at their peak didn't do much better.  On personal (financial) gain/loss, I am likely to be 'the same' under a Tory government, but almost certainly loose under a Labour government (or Labour/Lib Dem coalition),.  Unless anything changes, both the outcome most likely to get some form of leave AND what would be best for me personally seem to align and I am likely (with some reservations as I don't support May's deal) to vote for the Tory.

Edited January 11, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Aled]

Nicely worded post John, and I can see where you are coming from, and would go through a similar thought process before choosing whom to vote for. Recently,  I've also had support from our local MP regarding my children's medical condition, I'm mentioning this as politicians have had a slagging off on here (some with justification) mine gave me support when I asked for it. Take what you want from that!

Cheers

Aled

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Aled said:

Recently,  I've also had support from our local MP

I'm glad you get something useful from your MP. 

My previous MP (now sadly retired) supported a number of issues I wrote in about (inc. against the Hunting ban, against the handgun ban etc. mostly Countryside Alliance and BASC issues) and was both helpful and communicative (and very 'present' in the constituency attending many events, functions etc. and having his family home and family business locally.  He still lives locally.)

Current MP sadly declined to support an amendment on the current offensive weapons bill where I had written to her at the request of the BASC for support, though the MP did write back but didn't explain why she wouldn't support the amendment (tabled by the MP from the next door constituency and same (Tory) party as it happens).  I'm afraid I have little wish to vote for her, but she is the 'best of a bad choice of options'!

 

[Aled]

Fair enough John, you win some you lose some locally. Our MP is quite Countryside Savvy to be fair, he supported the installation of a disabled casting platform on our angling club water a few years ago, and was supportive of the farmers hunting packs (the ones that use hounds to flush a fox to the guns, there are quite a few of them round here) although I don't know where he stands on hunting with hounds in the traditional sense.

Cheers

Aled

Edited January 11, 2019 by Aled

[panoma1]

Ours is an ignorant, leftie waste of space with a closed mind..............."I've always voted against hunting and always will".....I've always voted against him and always will! Lol! 😜

[yod dropper]

6 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

If you feel that "the freedom and sovereignty of the country" (by which I assume you mean a clean break with the EU) is the most important issue - for whom do you vote?

A problem indeed. For me leaving the EU is the political issue, has been for about 15 years and I don't really care much beyond that. A lot of those who don't normally vote turned out and made themselves heard and I fear they won't vote again. I can't wait to hear the irony of politicians saying they need to engage more with the public or other such nonsense - the damage currently being done to our political system is immense and I don't think our political masters either realise or care. Parliament is not representative of the country on this matter and the most Eurosceptic party of them all has reneged on their manifesto. UKIP (or a reincarnation) are far from finished.

If I can find out I think I'll vote by each candidate's view on Brexit but that probably means I'll be spoiling my paper rather than not voting as it's an active way of showing my views. It may be possible a new leader will set out a clear position and is somebody who I think is good to their word. We may also get some novelty candidates such as the anarchist who stood a little while back. My MP in his fairly safe seat has pretty much the antithesis of my political outlook but the main opposition party will not be able to take me for granted as I no longer trust them.

 

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

A problem indeed. For me leaving the EU is the political issue, has been for about 15 years and I don't really care much beyond that. A lot of those who don't normally vote turned out and made themselves heard and I fear they won't vote again. I can't wait to hear the irony of politicians saying they need to engage more with the public or other such nonsense - the damage currently being done to our political system is immense and I don't think our political masters either realise or care. Parliament is not representative of the country on this matter and the most Eurosceptic party of them all has reneged on their manifesto. UKIP (or a reincarnation) are far from finished.

Definitely.
My opinion, if Brexit isnt delivered properly, and Mays deal does not count as properly, is come next election there will be serious issues of where the disgruntled and disenfranchised Brexiteers put their X.
A power vacuum that a new centre right party could take advantage of, NOT UKIP , but it would be a Eurosceptic party that would certainly attract UKIPs voter base.
I believe someone like Mogg could take his ERG group and others, possibly as many as 100 MPs away from the tories, taking some labour Brexiteers with them.
Whilst no where near a majority to take power, they could seriously impact the voters from both tory and labour parties, leading to coalition rule , or more ?

There are already small groups forming, like Foundation UK , who if united under a common banner and a sensible orator/figurehead, do some serious damage to the established political twin party system.
 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Definitely.
My opinion, if Brexit isnt delivered properly, and Mays deal does not count as properly, is come next election there will be serious issues of where the disgruntled and disenfranchised Brexiteers put their X.
A power vacuum that a new centre right party could take advantage of, NOT UKIP , but it would be a Eurosceptic party that would certainly attract UKIPs voter base.
I believe someone like Mogg could take his ERG group and others, possibly as many as 100 MPs away from the tories, taking some labour Brexiteers with them.
Whilst no where near a majority to take power, they could seriously impact the voters from both tory and labour parties, leading to coalition rule , or more ?

There are already small groups forming, like Foundation UK , who if united under a common banner and a sensible orator/figurehead, do some serious damage to the established political twin party system.
 

At present, the only possible new party formation being widely mooted is a Blair/Mandleson touted set up that would take the 'less left' Labour remain including the likes of Umuna and colleagues who are at risk of de-selection for being not 'left enough'.  It would though be solidly remain.

UKIP as they stand at present are a (bad) joke - and are the ONLY solidly leaver party (if you take the DUP as not available nationwide).

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

At present, the only possible new party formation being widely mooted is a Blair/Mandleson touted set up that would take the 'less left' Labour remain including the likes of Umuna and colleagues who are at risk of de-selection for being not 'left enough'.  It would though be solidly remain.

UKIP as they stand at present are a (bad) joke - and are the ONLY solidly leaver party (if you take the DUP as not available nationwide).

Win/win, how to split the Labour vote and guarantee they could never govern.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Blair/Mandleson touted set up

Their names being involved would poison any party they were involved in.
Blairs dream of him returning to politics, is just that, HIS dream.
I cant be the only person who looks at his rat face these days, and wonders how we ever got duped by him.

[JohnfromUK]

16 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Win/win, how to split the Labour vote and guarantee they could never govern.

And in fact - that is probably why it won't happen, but who knows if a lot of moderates are deselected?

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I cant be the only person who looks at his rat face these days, and wonders how we ever got duped by him.

You aren't - but a centre left party made from a mix of ex Labour moderates (SDP) and Liberals became what the LibDems were/are - and broadly have always been unelectable as a party.  Blair with his 'new Labour' beat them hollow.  History.

Blair/Mandleson/Campbell(Alistair not Menzies)/Prescott were the classic 'do as I say, not as I do' politicians, and had a complete lack of understanding of the truth, or any respect for those who believed in them and voted for them.

Edited January 11, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[besty57]

46 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Definitely.
My opinion, if Brexit isnt delivered properly, and Mays deal does not count as properly, is come next election there will be serious issues of where the disgruntled and disenfranchised Brexiteers put their X.
A power vacuum that a new centre right party could take advantage of, NOT UKIP , but it would be a Eurosceptic party that would certainly attract UKIPs voter base.
I believe someone like Mogg could take his ERG group and others, possibly as many as 100 MPs away from the tories, taking some labour Brexiteers with them.
Whilst no where near a majority to take power, they could seriously impact the voters from both tory and labour parties, leading to coalition rule , or more ?

There are already small groups forming, like Foundation UK , who if united under a common banner and a sensible orator/figurehead, do some serious damage to the established political twin party system.
 

We can only hope,any party with mogg at the helm would get my vote.

[12gauge82]

59 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Definitely.
My opinion, if Brexit isnt delivered properly, and Mays deal does not count as properly, is come next election there will be serious issues of where the disgruntled and disenfranchised Brexiteers put their X.
A power vacuum that a new centre right party could take advantage of, NOT UKIP , but it would be a Eurosceptic party that would certainly attract UKIPs voter base.
I believe someone like Mogg could take his ERG group and others, possibly as many as 100 MPs away from the tories, taking some labour Brexiteers with them.
Whilst no where near a majority to take power, they could seriously impact the voters from both tory and labour parties, leading to coalition rule , or more ?

There are already small groups forming, like Foundation UK , who if united under a common banner and a sensible orator/figurehead, do some serious damage to the established political twin party system.
 

I think this is spot on, I've spoken to a lot of people who have said they feel the same. 

[pinfireman]

8 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm quite curious about this (and I'm not about to get personal about other people);

At present we have two parties who could form a government (none of the others (LibDem, UKIP,  Green) could ever expect a majority in Westminster, and would probably only ally with Labour).  Those parties are Tory and Labour.

It seems to me that on Brexit, we sort of know where the Tories are - which is 'lost' somewhere between May's poor deal, no deal, and ??  Labour (not at present having to 'follow through' on what they say) make various claims on being able to negotiate a better deal (which the EU say they can't give) based on staying in the single market, customs union and retaining free movement of people.  To me that is Brexit In Name Only (BRINO) and is worse than being IN.

So the reality is NEITHER party looks like it would deliver a true Brexit - even more so as Labour's 'allies' (the SNP and Greens and the Lib Dems who might well be needed to support them in a minority government) are all firm Remainers.

So the key question is If you feel that "the freedom and sovereignty of the country" (by which I assume you mean a clean break with the EU) is the most important issue - for whom do you vote?

On personal gain, I cannot see that the Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott's policies are likely to give personal gain to the vast majority of the population. Their economic policies would see the country's economic position worsen, (collapsing pound and stock market) which will end up bad for virtually all of us.  Their support for various terrorist groups would loose us allies in the world. 

From a purely personal point of view, my constituency has (as far as I know at present and unless anything unforeseen happens) two candidates who could realistically win; A LibDem who is firmly remain, and a Tory (the current MP) who is leave, but (I think) supports May's deal.  Labour get possibly 10% of the vote and UKIP at their peak didn't do much better.  On personal (financial) gain/loss, I am likely to be 'the same' under a Tory government, but almost certainly loose under a Labour government (or Labour/Lib Dem coalition),.  Unless anything changes, both the outcome most likely to get some form of leave AND what would be best for me personally seem to align and I am likely (with some reservations as I don't support May's deal) to vote for the Tory.

I agree with pretty much all of what you say.  My take on future voting is quite simple.....if May and the rebel tories(Remainers) sell us down the river, then I will vote tactically to do as much damage as possible. In my constituency, that is very little, we have a large Labour majority.  HOWEVER,  working on the assumption that Brexit will be betrayed by politicians failing to accept the result of a fair, free and democratic referendum, I along with others across the UK are now formulating ways to punish those who screwed us!  UKIP are out of the picture, mainly due to infighting etc since Nigel Farage left..............but those who voted UKIP at the last election are still around, and looking for a target for their anger at what has been done to us. In most constituencies in England, their votes averaged 5%, easily more than enough to unseat the current MPs in 50 constituencies! Those MPs are already getting emails etc, telling them not to make any plans after 2022! In other constituencies, both Tory and Labour, we intend to use the same tactics as Momentum, in order to infiltrate local parties, and at party meetings, put forward amendments to de-select the Remainer MP! What is good for the goose, is good for the gander! The battle is not over until the fat lady sings!

[pinfireman]

Guido brings you a list of Britain’s most hypocritical Brexit MPs. Those who voted for Article 50, but are now determined to stop Brexit, by opposing both no deal, and May’s deal. 123 MPs feature on the list, from Michael Fallon to Kier Starmer, Chuka Umunna to Sarah Wollaston.

Curiously, a number of hardcore Tory Remainers are absent from the list – people like Heidi Allen and Antoinette Sandbach currently say they are backing May’s deal. What are they up to?

Debbie Abrahams

Jonathan Ashworth

Adrian Bailey

Guto Bebb

Margaret Beckett

Hilary Benn

Richard Benyon

Tracy Brabin

Nicholas Brown

Richard Burden

Richard Burgon

Liam Byrne

Sir Alan Campbell

Sarah Champion

Jenny Chapman

Vernon Coaker

Julie Cooper

Rosie Cooper

Yvette Cooper

Jeremy Corbyn

Judith Cummins

Alex Cunningham

Jim Cunningham

David Wayne

Nick Dakin

Gloria De Piero

Jonathan Djanogly

Peter Dowd

Angela Eagle

Clive Efford

Julie Elliott

Chris Elmore

Chris Evans

Sir Michael Fallon

Jim Fitzpatrick

Yvonne Fovargue

Gill Furniss

Barry Gardiner

Helen Goodman

Dominic Grieve

Margaret Greenwood

Justine Greening

Nia Griffith

Andrew Gwynne

Sam Gyimah

Louise Haigh

Fabian Hamilton

Harriet Harman

Carolyn Harris

Sue Hayman

John Healey

Mark Hendrick

Stephen Hepburn

Sharon Hodgson

Kate Hollern

Imran Hussain

Diana Johnson

Gerald Jones

Helen Jones

Kevan Jones

Mike Kane

Barbara Keeley

Liz Kendall

Stephen Kinnock

Ian Lavery

Phillip Lee

Clive Lewis

Ivan Lewis

Rebecca Long Bailey

Justin Madders

Khalid Mahmood

Shabana Mahmood

Seema Malhotra

Gordon Marsden

Christian Matheson

Steve McCabe

John McDonnell

Pat McFadden

Conor McGinn

Alison McGovern

Liz McInnes

Jim McMahon

Ed Miliband

Jessica Morden

Grahame Morris

Melanie Onn

Chi Onwurah

Kate Osamor

Albert Owen

Matthew Pennycook

Toby Perkins

Jess Phillips

Bridget Phillipson

Lucy Powell

Yasmin Qureshi

Angela Rayner

Steve Reed

Christina Rees

Rachel Reeves

Emma Reynolds

Jonathan Reynolds

Marie Rimmer

Joan Ryan

Barry Sheerman

Ruth Smeeth

Cat Smith

Nick Smith

Karin Smyth

Anna Soubry

John Spellar

Kier Starmer

Mark Tami

Gareth Thomas

Nick Thomas-Symonds

Emily Thornberry

Jon Trickett

Anna Turley

Karl Turner

Stephen Twigg

Chucka Umunna

Ed Vaizey

Valarie Vaz

Tom Watson

Phil Wilson

Sarah Wollaston

UPDATE:  Jon Trickett says he is secretly fighting behind the scenes, Richard Benyon and Ed Vaizey have said they will vote for the PM’s deal.

Here,s one for the "democratic" remoaners on here,

Guido reported back in October how adverts for the People’s Vote’s “Losers’ March” had been allowed on the tube in direct contravention of TfL rules on advertising – as rule 2.3(n) clearly states, an “advertisement will be unacceptable if it promotes a party political cause or electioneering.” Not that the adverts did much good, given that only one third of the 700,000 figure the People’s Vote claimed actually turned up…

Incredibly, yet more People’s Vote adverts have now appeared on the tube at Westminster Station of all places, with Alastair Campbell even boasting about them on Instagram this morning. GLA Conservative leader Gareth Bacon slammed Sadiq for permitting the prohibited ads: “This is disgraceful behaviour from Sadiq Khan; he’s allowing public resources to be used for Remain propaganda.” After his questionable donation revealed by Guido yesterday, this looks like yet another instance of Sadiq abusing his position in a shamelessly partisan way…

Source:  Guido Fawkes

 

[pinfireman]

Following the remarkable intervention of an anonymous civil servant over Christmas in the Telegraph, who revealed that the civil service was far more prepared for no deal than the Government was letting on, a second anonymous civil servant has come forward to warn that May’s Deal creates a Brexit “triple lock” which could “shackle the UK to Brussels forever”.

Writing for BrexitCentral, they warn that the “backstop is intended to be inescapable” and would give the EU “effective control over UK trade and competition policy” as well as “carv[ing] out Northern Ireland as an EU province and set[ting] a border in the Irish Sea”. Nor do they see the promised future relationship as a viable way out, they write that “the Political Declaration replicates all the onerous ‘non-regression’ clauses of the backstop” as well as requiring “even more surrender of sovereignty” in numerous other areas including fishing, defence and agriculture. This will not put MPs’ minds at ease ahead of the vote next week

[Aled]

Pinfireman really interesting points and said with passion, fair enough, but I have mentioned this before, my family members who are Valleys people to the core voted Leave in the referendum, however as they have done for many years they will still be voting Labour at the next general election. Whether Brexit happens or not is not relevant to them when it comes to whom they vote for during a general election. I'm not taking sides here, just saying how it is for the people I know.

Cheers

Aled