Brexit - merged threads

[pinfireman]

On 16/05/2019 at 13:56, Raja Clavata said:

I don't think it's a case of blaming him for what's going on but highlighting the fact that his version of the Brexit seems to have chopped and changed over time (and is still not wholly consistent).

We have ample examples of his ability to deliver rhetoric and put downs so it would be good to see how he performs in real meaningful debate, good practice to meet his aspirations for No. 10 too.

The bit about a contract with the people does sound good and refreshing, would love to be proved wrong but I bet he's already identified a scapegoat in the event it doesn't fly.

To date yes, they have served the parties pretty well in getting elected.

Rubbish!  Tribalism got the two parties elected, with just a few swing votes making the difference. If you think that most Labour voters sit down and read their favourite party,s manifesto,  then you may believe the Earth is still flat?

As for Farage chopping and changing his ideal Brexit, that is a wild exagerration at best!

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, pinfireman said:

TOTAL BOVINE SCAT! As usual............No mention of a Party Leader who has NEVER attended a memorial service for those murdered by the IRA (except when he HAD to attend Remembrance Day at the Cenotaph, in order to look as though he supports our veterans, which he does NOT!)

No mention of the worst Tory Prime Minister ever.........

No mention of the geriatric  leader of the Limp / Dumbs, who could not run the proverbial booze up in a brewery

No mention of the Leader of the Greens, who has 5 homes, and racks up the carbon footprint visiting them

No mention of the SNP leader, who wants to break up the Union 

But a snide comment that MEPs salary and expenses are lining  Nigel Farage,s pocket.................he WAS elected to the EU Parliament, as was other (at the time) UKIP  candidates, Conservative candidates, Limp/Dumb candidates.  etc etc....but never a mention about their incomes! 

Whilst there, he has done EXACTLY what he said he would do, and that is to get us out of there! He has openly said that if you  get Brexit, then you put him out of a job! Losing that salary and expenses.

 

As usual. all pro-Remain rubbish!

This has nothing to do with the others, nobody is defending them collectively and individually only in the minority. I would say nice try to divert the point but it's not, it doesn't even come close to being a pathetic attempt.

The point here is that you and others would imply Farage is beyond reproach, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Raja Clavata
do

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, pinfireman said:

Rubbish!  Tribalism got the two parties elected, with just a few swing votes making the difference. If you think that most Labour voters sit down and read their favourite party,s manifesto,  then you may believe the Earth is still flat?

As for Farage chopping and changing his ideal Brexit, that is a wild exagerration at best!

Another attempt to divert from the point.

What is with the repeated references to flat earth. I think the more topical point would be that a good number of Brexiteers also appear to be climate change deniers but that's for another day. I do wonder if there's correlation to moon landing skeptics but again another day.

Farage changing his version of Brexit is well documented and he has more or less admitted himself that his view has evolved - but you are still incapable of accepting it.

To top it all your standard retort is "rubbish" 

5 hours ago, Good shot? said:

He is obviously showing some of the benefits of the EU gravy train if you look at it in context.

it would show an obvious anti brexit  bios to say anything else imo.

Interesting conclusion.

[sportsbob]

If you the loosers can back the snowflake lefty remoaning party then I'm dam sure we the winners will back whoever we like. Do you not realise your repetitive whining and winging only strengthens our resolve. I seem to recall that video of Farage exposing the EU pay when it was first aired and understood it to be just that "exposing" not bragging.

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, sportsbob said:

If you the loosers can back the snowflake lefty remoaning party then I'm dam sure we the winners will back whoever we like. Do you not realise your repetitive whining and winging only strengthens our resolve. I seem to recall that video of Farage exposing the EU pay when it was first aired and understood it to be just that "exposing" not bragging.

You haven’t won anything yet and the strengthening resolve works both ways. This we won mentality is the problem, like it gives you some kind of God given right for eternity, an unwillingness and inability to concede or compromise anything.

[sportsbob]

Our government gave us the people the choice in the form of the referendum. Those that voted to leave the EU won the vote and that makes them winners.  Based on the well documented pre referendum promises made that we would not be part of the customs union in any shape or form there should be nothing to compromise. If remain had of won do you seriously think for one second any of the last three years antics but in the opposite favour would have taken place? no it wouldn't. This whole fiasco has been set in motion by those that refuse to accept the outcome of the vote. 

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

This has nothing to do with the others, nobody is defending them collectively and individually only in the minority. I would say nice try to divert the point but it's not, it doesn't even come close to being a pathetic attempt.

The point here is that you and others would imply Farage is beyond reproach, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Never said he was beyond reproach,  but I can spot a smear campaign a mile off ! As for the others,  I find it strange that you rarely, if ever, criticise them!  Are they beyond reproach? Or will you divert attention away from them, again?

41 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

Our government gave us the people the choice in the form of the referendum. Those that voted to leave the EU won the vote and that makes them winners.  Based on the well documented pre referendum promises made that we would not be part of the customs union in any shape or form there should be nothing to compromise. If remain had of won do you seriously think for one second any of the last three years antics but in the opposite favour would have taken place? no it wouldn't. This whole fiasco has been set in motion by those that refuse to accept the outcome of the vote. 

Correct! Funded in part by Soros, with his front "person" Gina Miller leading the charge!

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

You haven’t won anything yet and the strengthening resolve works both ways. This we won mentality is the problem, like it gives you some kind of God given right for eternity, an unwillingness and inability to concede or compromise anything.

Is this confirmation that you have been a Remainer all along?  Not someone merely trying to put a balanced view?

[Raja Clavata]

We’re going round in circles. You were the winners on an advisory vote albeit one that the PM at the time made a commitment to see through. He resigned upon the outcome being announced.

BS Boris disappeared into the background and Farage followed.

Of course if Remain had been the majority the same antics would not have prevailed but leave was a false promise.

You can claim that 51.9% won but the reality is that everyone but the elite untouchables lost.

As I said all along we’ve all been played. And I venture Nige is back to play with us all again, because at the end of the day he’s the same as the rest of them.

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Another attempt to divert from the point.

What is with the repeated references to flat earth. I think the more topical point would be that a good number of Brexiteers also appear to be climate change deniers but that's for another day. I do wonder if there's correlation to moon landing skeptics but again another day.

Farage changing his version of Brexit is well documented and he has more or less admitted himself that his view has evolved - but you are still incapable of accepting it.

To top it all your standard retort is "rubbish" 

Interesting conclusion.

So you think the average Labour voter sits down and reads the manifesto, in full, and understands it? And makes their voting intention from that? 

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

We’re going round in circles. You were the winners on an advisory vote albeit one that the PM at the time made a commitment to see through. He resigned upon the outcome being announced.

BS Boris disappeared into the background and Farage followed.

Of course if Remain had been the majority the same antics would not have prevailed but leave was a false promise.

You can claim that 51.9% won but the reality is that everyone but the elite untouchables lost.

As I said all along we’ve all been played. And I venture Nige is back to play with us all again, because at the end of the day he’s the same as the rest of them.

IT WAS NEVER AN ADVISORY VOTE! The usual smokescreen !

[Raja Clavata]

10 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Never said he was beyond reproach,  but I can spot a smear campaign a mile off ! As for the others,  I find it strange that you rarely, if ever, criticise them!  Are they beyond reproach? Or will you divert attention away from them, again?

Correct! Funded in part by Soros, with his front "person" Gina Miller leading the charge!

Is this confirmation that you have been a Remainer all along?  Not someone merely trying to put a balanced view?

I swung between leave and remain before the vote and voted Remain because after thorough analysis I could not buy into the ambiguity of what leave meant in detailed terms and because I did not believe the EU would play nicely. 

Like I said before not proEU but antiBrexit.

And yes I think it’s fair to say my position has hardened on Remain over time, for the life of my I can’t think why...

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

So you think the average Labour voter sits down and reads the manifesto, in full, and understands it? And makes their voting intention from that? 

IT WAS NEVER AN ADVISORY VOTE! The usual smokescreen !

I have no insight into what the average labour voter may or may do as I’ve not considered voting for labour since before I was of eligible age to vote.

The outcome of the referendum was not legally binding until Parliament voted to make it so, to suggest anything else really does illustrate ignorance or complete denial of undeniable fact. But anyway doesn’t matter now.

So, moving on, what percentage of EU election votes in favour of the Brexit Party is an emphatic vote for WTO Brexit in your opinion. Based on the leave campaign figures from the referendum a figure of around 33% is the baseline bare minimum (but perhaps to be fair that’s the minimum for all pro Brexit votes so maybe Brexit Party and UKIP combined). What say you?

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Like I said before not proEU but antiBrexit.

And yes I think it’s fair to say my position has hardened on Remain over time, for the life of my I can’t think why...

 

Neither can I. Nigel Farage is not entitled to change his view - however slightly - but diehard Remainers - that's perfectly okay.

[12gauge82]

The biggest issue in my opinion, is how are they going to ever restore any shred of faith in our political system, the lies that were told by most politicians, on both sides for their own gain has caused division I've never seen in this country. 

I think it's worth remembering it's the politicians who've caused these issues and not the people who voted, I hold no grudge against anyone who voted remain, they are perfectly entitled an opposing view, that is what democracy is all about, I am however annoyed at the politicians who have refused to action the result. 

[Gordon R]

12gauge82 - totally agree. Both main parties pledged to honour the result of the referendum, but subsequently started talk about people not knowing what they voted for. It has cropped up on this thread a number of times. Aside from being patronising, it shows a lack of intelligence. Those who say this are judging by their own standards - albeit very low standards at that.

[Raja Clavata]

28 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The biggest issue in my opinion, is how are they going to ever restore any shred of faith in our political system, the lies that were told by most politicians, on both sides for their own gain has caused division I've never seen in this country. 

I think it's worth remembering it's the politicians who've caused these issues and not the people who voted, I hold no grudge against anyone who voted remain, they are perfectly entitled an opposing view, that is what democracy is all about, I am however annoyed at the politicians who have refused to action the result. 

Agreed, well said.

[Rewulf]

 

[old man]

23 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Most purport to be that way surely but still manage to line their own on the way? How could he be different in that respect?

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

The biggest issue in my opinion, is how are they going to ever restore any shred of faith in our political system, the lies that were told by most politicians, on both sides for their own gain has caused division I've never seen in this country. 

I think it's worth remembering it's the politicians who've caused these issues and not the people who voted, I hold no grudge against anyone who voted remain, they are perfectly entitled an opposing view, that is what democracy is all about, I am however annoyed at the politicians who have refused to action the result. 

Absolutely.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, old man said:

Most purport to be that way surely but still manage to line their own on the way? How could he be different in that respect?

That was my point, thank-you for answering the question, much to your credit amongst others who avoided doing so 👍

[oowee]

Damien Green this morning on Pienaar's 5l. 'What we need is a One Nation Brexit' sums it up for me. 

[B725]

12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

My god just bare faced lies how do they live with it and how do they expect anyone at all to trust them. I voted to leave and I wish that's just what they should do. 

[old man]

With luck the face of politics will be changed for ever?

[Rewulf]

This from a FB group called 'We are the 63 % that didnt vote to leave' 
Apparently it wasnt 48 %, but they have calculated using 'air' numbers that it was 63 %

They believe we are 'stuck on an island' where apparently , politicians 'make the rules'  shocking isnt it ? 

But if we vote for pro EU MEPs on Thursday,  this guarantees our 'rights' to the federal EU utopian dream.
This logic makes no mention of the 52% who did vote to leave, because ,as you can imagine, we really didnt know what we were voting for, and theres more of them at 63 % !

No doubt the lady in the picture, denied the right to live , love , work and retire in the EU country of her choice, is about to drown herself at the prospect ?

[oowee]

The loss of these rights alone are too high a price to pay let alone anything else but Thurs vote is the least of our concerns. 

[Yellow Bear]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This from a FB group called 'We are the 63 % that didnt vote to leave' 
Apparently it wasnt 48 %, but they have calculated using 'air' numbers that it was 63 %

They believe we are 'stuck on an island' where apparently , politicians 'make the rules'  shocking isnt it ? 

But if we vote for pro EU MEPs on Thursday,  this guarantees our 'rights' to the federal EU utopian dream.
This logic makes no mention of the 52% who did vote to leave, because ,as you can imagine, we really didnt know what we were voting for, and theres more of them at 63 % !

No doubt the lady in the picture, denied the right to live , love , work and retire in the EU country of her choice, is about to drown herself at the prospect ?

Using their system they seem to have forgotten the 66% who did not vote to remain

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

The loss of these rights alone are too high a price to pay let alone anything else but Thurs vote is the least of our concerns. 

Too high a price ?
First off, if you have enough money, any country in the world will let you live there.
No body thinks to themselves, Ok Im ready to retire, Ive no assets, no savings, but I quite fancy retiring to Tuscany and living off the Italian state for the rest of my days in the sunshine.

Im not saying you CANT do it, but the prospect is not that likely without backup money.
What is far more likely, is someone from an Eastern European country coming to the UK for retirement, due to its generous social security benefits.

Secondly,the price of staying in the rapidly deteriorating EU is too high.
Less and less national autonomy, more and more health tourists, and claimants on our social state.
Loss of national identity might not seem like a big deal to some people, but this 'destruction' of nationalism is a stated aim of the EU , why ?
How does it affect the day to day running of the bloc ?
Why is political , legal and fiscal union so important to them, when they know full well that these are the most unpopular parts of membership ?
Why do they risk the break up of the project, due to their rigid defence of the 4 'freedoms'
Lastly , why is it so important to have as many countries as possible under the flag, even when they are plainly unsuitable, for political and financial reasons.
Why do they need an army ?