Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, SainIT said:

I have to stress again, if you remain in the EU the days of picking which rules you like will finish in a year or 2 and you will become satellite states of Germany just like us. Once you have the Euro there is no going back!

Again , good perspective.
Can I ask which country you are from, or do you prefer 'state'  ? (Im joking BTW)

[SainIT]

I am an ex-South African, retired and living in Italy. But my entire pension pot is invested in the UK, so what happens in the UK is of great importance to me!

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, SainIT said:

I am an ex-South African, retired and living in Italy. But my entire pension pot is invested in the UK, so what happens in the UK is of great importance to me!

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It,s gone quiet on here.............have they retired to Brussels? 

[Bazooka Joe]

New proposal....interesting reading

Steve Baker ERG_Clean Managed Brexit

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Very interesting!

[oowee]

🙄 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

🙄

You're speechless, Raja will be along soon to help you!

Edited June 6, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[oowee]

Waiting for content. See my squirrel post that is a good one. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Waiting for content. See my squirrel post that is a good one. 

It was posted by someone else a couple of weeks ago!

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It was posted by someone else a couple of weeks ago!

ooop s 🙂

 

[Raja Clavata]

Raja’s a bit busy trying to negotiate his own version of Brexit with French, German and Italian colleagues in the Cote D’Azur.

[Raja Clavata]

On 06/06/2019 at 06:12, Rewulf said:

Did you think it actually says in the text, ' All member states will be FORCED to adopt the single currency'? 

No, I think people are making it up to serve their agenda / bias.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

No, I think people are making it up to serve their agenda / bias.

If we are taking the 'forced' part literally , then no it doesnt say that, how could it ?
Would you sign a document that says you would be forced to do something at a later date ?
Coerced may be a better way of putting it, and the Lisbon treat DOES say that it wants ALL member states to be in the euro at some point.

THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES, DESIRING to promote conditions for stronger economic growth in the European Union and, to that end, to develop evercloser coordination of economic policies within the euro area, CONSCIOUS of the need to lay down special provisions for enhanced dialogue between the Member States whose currency is the euro, pending the euro becoming the currency of all Member States of the Union, HAVE AGREED UPON the following provisions, which shall be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:

indeed all new applicants MUST adopt the euro once they reach economic criteria, you know , how Greece didnt  ...

4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

If you have attempted to read the Lisbon treaty you might have found its not the easiest thing to read, as nearly everything it mentions is 'depending on' and 'subject to' constantly amended criteria that makes deciphering what it actually means very difficult, unless you have an in depth knowledge of its many workings.

Heres an example, it says much, without actually saying anything.

6. The decisions and recommendations of the Council within the framework of permanent structured cooperation, other than those provided for in paragraphs 2 to 5, shall be adopted by unanimity. For the purposes of this paragraph, unanimity shall be constituted by the votes of the representatives of the participating Member States only. 51) Articles 29 to 39 of Title VI, which relate to judicial cooperation in criminal matters and to police cooperation, shall be replaced by the provisions of Chapters 1, 4 and 5 of Title IV of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. As set out below, in Article 2, points 64, 67 and 68 of this Treaty, Article 29 shall be replaced by Article 61 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, Article 30 shall be replaced by Articles 69 F and 69 G thereof, Article 31 shall be replaced by Articles 69 A, 69 B and 69 D thereof, Article 32 shall be replaced by Article 69 H thereof, Article 33 shall be replaced by Article 61 E thereof and Article 36 shall be replaced by Article 61 D thereof. The heading of the Title shall be deleted and its number shall become the number of the Title on final provisions. 52) Articles 40 to 40 B of Title VI and Articles 43 to 45 of Title VII, relating to enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above, and Title VII shall be repealed. 53) Articles 41 and 42 shall be repealed. FINAL PROVISIONS 54) Title VIII, on final provisions, shall be renumbered VI; this Title and Articles 48, 49 and 53 shall be amended as set out respectively in points 56, 57 and 61 below. Article 47 shall be replaced by Article 25b, as indicated above in point 45, and Articles 46 and 50 shall be repealed. 55) The following new Article 46 A shall be inserted: Article 46 A The Union shall have legal personality. 56) Article 48 shall be replaced by the following: Article 48 1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure. They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures. Ordinary revision procedure 2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

I hope you got all that ?😄

[Raja Clavata]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If we are taking the 'forced' part literally , then no it doesnt say that, how could it ?
Would you sign a document that says you would be forced to do something at a later date ?
Coerced may be a better way of putting it, and the Lisbon treat DOES say that it wants ALL member states to be in the euro at some point.

THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES, DESIRING to promote conditions for stronger economic growth in the European Union and, to that end, to develop evercloser coordination of economic policies within the euro area, CONSCIOUS of the need to lay down special provisions for enhanced dialogue between the Member States whose currency is the euro, pending the euro becoming the currency of all Member States of the Union, HAVE AGREED UPON the following provisions, which shall be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:

indeed all new applicants MUST adopt the euro once they reach economic criteria, you know , how Greece didnt  ...

4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

If you have attempted to read the Lisbon treaty you might have found its not the easiest thing to read, as nearly everything it mentions is 'depending on' and 'subject to' constantly amended criteria that makes deciphering what it actually means very difficult, unless you have an in depth knowledge of its many workings.

Heres an example, it says much, without actually saying anything.

6. The decisions and recommendations of the Council within the framework of permanent structured cooperation, other than those provided for in paragraphs 2 to 5, shall be adopted by unanimity. For the purposes of this paragraph, unanimity shall be constituted by the votes of the representatives of the participating Member States only. 51) Articles 29 to 39 of Title VI, which relate to judicial cooperation in criminal matters and to police cooperation, shall be replaced by the provisions of Chapters 1, 4 and 5 of Title IV of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. As set out below, in Article 2, points 64, 67 and 68 of this Treaty, Article 29 shall be replaced by Article 61 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, Article 30 shall be replaced by Articles 69 F and 69 G thereof, Article 31 shall be replaced by Articles 69 A, 69 B and 69 D thereof, Article 32 shall be replaced by Article 69 H thereof, Article 33 shall be replaced by Article 61 E thereof and Article 36 shall be replaced by Article 61 D thereof. The heading of the Title shall be deleted and its number shall become the number of the Title on final provisions. 52) Articles 40 to 40 B of Title VI and Articles 43 to 45 of Title VII, relating to enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above, and Title VII shall be repealed. 53) Articles 41 and 42 shall be repealed. FINAL PROVISIONS 54) Title VIII, on final provisions, shall be renumbered VI; this Title and Articles 48, 49 and 53 shall be amended as set out respectively in points 56, 57 and 61 below. Article 47 shall be replaced by Article 25b, as indicated above in point 45, and Articles 46 and 50 shall be repealed. 55) The following new Article 46 A shall be inserted: Article 46 A The Union shall have legal personality. 56) Article 48 shall be replaced by the following: Article 48 1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure. They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures. Ordinary revision procedure 2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

I hope you got all that ?😄

Thanks, yes I read some of it and it's heavy going, at least for me as an Engineer. Classic legal speak which is by definition open to interpretation as this serves the pockets of the lawyers.

So my issue here is that some people are stating as matter of fact that if we're still in the EU by 2022 we will be FORCED to adopt the Euro - that is misrepresentation at best and skirting over the details. IF the EU tried to force this on us then it would be a game changer on my position with the EU and I suspect I'm not alone in that thinking. Despite it making my life a bit easier I think it would be potentially disastrous for us to adopt the € and certainly grounds for divorce IF it was forced upon us.

[Dave-G]

I'm sure I've seen several references to all members having to adopt the Euro in 2020? Lisbon treaty enaction. I can't recall where I've seen it - and it may have been a 'fake news' copy paste of documentation.

 

Edit: It does indeed look like it was fake news.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Dave-G

[oowee]

21 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I'm sure I've seen several references to all members having to adopt the Euro in 2020? Lisbon treaty enaction. I can't recall where I've seen it - and it may have been a 'fake news' copy paste of documentation.

 

Edit: It does indeed look like it was fake news.

Just like much of the EU hate diatribe then. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Just like much of the EU hate diatribe then. 

I don't think people hate the EU. I believe they don't like being dictated to and having their wallet / purse emptied by alcoholic, unelected idiots.

[Raja Clavata]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

Just like much of the EU hate diatribe then. 

There must be a media ban on the press reporting the outcome of the MEP elections in Turkey, I've seen nothing on it.

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

There must be a media ban on the press reporting the outcome of the MEP elections in Turkey, I've seen nothing on it.

Too many to count. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Too many to count. 

Strangely enough , IF Turkey were to field MEPs in the EU parliament, they would have the second highest number (96) due to their population size, not that it means anything anyway, plus due to Erdogans refusal to tow the Brussels line, Turkey will not be joining the bloc any time soon, which, according to Turks that I know, is a good thing, for many reasons, not least of them becoming a front line asylum claiming destination , at the moment , they are just a transit point.

[Raja Clavata]

Now that the general public have been directly exposed to some of the potential economic and, more importantly, provision of free for all healthcare issues around Brexit and see why the US, Russia and China might be in favour of us leaving the bloc, we could well observe the wheels falling off the Brexit bus. 

There's a certain irony about the NHS, and its bus, being one of the instruments that swings public opinion against Brexit. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Raja Clavata
of the

[Mice!]

I see Peterborough was won by Labour with a small majority, possibly because voting was split between brexit and tories, could be bad news at the next GE

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Now that the general public have been directly exposed to some of the potential economic and, more importantly, provision of free for all healthcare issues around Brexit and see why the US, Russia and China might be in favour of us leaving the bloc, we could well observe the wheels falling off the Brexit bus. 

There's a certain irony about the NHS, and its bus, being one of the instruments that swings public opinion against Brexit. 

Very wishful thinking !

Trump talking about access to the NHS (For drug sales that they already have) is just a blip on the landscape seized upon by remainers to keep the dream of remain alive.
Every UK politician has said its a no go, so sorry but its a NO NO 

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Mice! said:

possibly because voting was split between brexit and tories, could be bad news at the next GE

No 'possibly' about it.  That was the cause.  Yes - Tory Leavers and Brexit MUST get together and field one LEAVE candidate at the next election and pick up ALL Tory, Brexit and Labour votes from those who want to leave.  Otherwise we will NEVER leave.