Brexit - merged threads

[mick miller]

38 minutes ago, krugerandsmith said:

Democracy is  an illusion defined only when you abide by the rules set out  within certain parameters.

I've maintained for years that democracy is simply an illusion. We are simply permitted to do what were told, within strict constraints. The opposite is anarchy but that needn't be a dogs dinner, I digress. It appears that democracy has been finally conquered by business, no longer content with simply lobbying, business now places it's key people into positions of political power. I think what we're seeing now is just a conflict between those that believe in a protectionist business model (EU) vs. those that believe in a globalist business model (US & RotW). As a working fellow I'm genuinely concerned for what the future holds for ordinary folk as this is simply going to benefit a), the already wealthy and b). their shareholders (slightly less wealthy).
 

Or perhaps I'm simply losing my marbles.

Edited July 9, 2018 by mick miller

[scotslad]

Some god sensible comments above.

But for me this is the worst possible outcome, tories are ripping themselves apart but are far still more Brexit baised than labour.

While most folk on here voted to leave and see iebour for the complete shambles they are, they were still a complete shambles at the last elction and STILL done quite well.

There is a massive amount of numptes out there who either just always vote red (look wot happened in scotland with labour imploded, never has there been a time when voters need a 3rd option) or will believe all the ridiculas promises

 

After the referendum vote surely everyone who voted to leave should off had enough sense to vote in a very strong tory/Brexit governemt, yet the resuts went the oppisate way and tories lost ground.

I wouldn't right labur off, if they cae in in autumn with months to go it would be an even worse shambles than it is now.

No matter wot ur actual views on Brexit, never has there been a time when all politicians/MP's and esp government have needed to be strong and get a good deal or atleast not get completely shafted.

If we get completely shafted the damage will last for generations. Not a good place to be in

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, scotslad said:

If we get completely shafted the damage will last for generations.

But is the alternative to kneecap 'ourselves'? (I put the 'ourselves' in ironic inverted commas because thanks to Theresa May I'm probably exiled from my own country forever.) But really, reading some of the posts on these Brexit threads the way that people apparently want to jump headlong off a massive cliff into a known maelstrom you'd have to think someone had been poisoning the country's water with some kind of lemming mixture.

There are actual realities of trade and the regulation of that trade that urgently need to be addressed. And these realities  are not about politics and especially the 'he said' 'she said' trivia of personality politics of twitter feed soundbytes and slogans so beloved of the lazy mainstream media.

Time is running out. Unless the country wakes up very soon to the practical realities of getting hard and fast stuff in place the future is not at all bright. Not at all bright indeed. 

[wymberley]

Oh, come on, it's not all doom and gloom! All we need is one man who will carry everyone with him and who is able to project a similar image for getting us out as did deGaulle for not letting us in in the first place. He's a bit tied up at the moment but give him a couple of days as a breather after next weekend and there'll be a god who could be briefed to put the fear of God into that motley crew over la manche.

Well, one can always wish.

Edited July 9, 2018 by wymberley

[oowee]

Will you quitters stop your moaning!!! You voted for chaos and now you are getting what you voted for. Don't trust the politicians ? dont make me laugh you voted to give them more power and now you are moaning about that. Lets get on with it. 

[Retsdon]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Lets get on with it. 

But get on with what exactly? The very fact that in two years there's been absolutely zero progress on 'negotiation' suggests that either the will or the competence or probably both just isn't there. After 40 plus years of EU membership, does Whitehall actually contain the expertise and personnel to conduct trade negotiations on anything but a facile level? It's a serious question.

[12gauge82]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

Will you quitters stop your moaning!!! You voted for chaos and now you are getting what you voted for. Don't trust the politicians ? dont make me laugh you voted to give them more power and now you are moaning about that. Lets get on with it. 

No we're not getting what we voted for at all, the country voted to leave the EU, anything less than that is a sell out.

[Mice!]

59 minutes ago, mick miller said:

business now places it's key people into positions of political power. I

I thought this how it always was, were in for the ride now hold on tight and paddle for the light.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

But get on with what exactly? The very fact that in two years there's been absolutely zero progress on 'negotiation' suggests that either the will or the competence or probably both just isn't there. After 40 plus years of EU membership, does Whitehall actually contain the expertise and personnel to conduct trade negotiations on anything but a facile level? It's a serious question.

And one which has been asked far too late, the vote has already taken place so we need to get on with it and leave.

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

...and leave.

...but under what terms? The devil is in the detail.

[mick miller]

40 years of deferring all meaningful political decisions to the EU (with the exception of a smattering of knee jerk, poorly conceived reactions to events in the UK) has left a political class in office, flabby, bloated, pontificating and utterly useless. No wonder so many want to cling to the safety of the EU, they could barely make a decision with any conviction if their political lives depended on it.

This has to be, categorically, the worst bunch of elected ***** in British Parliamentary history.

Edited July 9, 2018 by mick miller

[scotslad]

Even the practicalities off leaving with no deal, while it will impact loads of business etc with import/export tarriffs i'm sure most will adapt and get over it.

Its the practical aspect, for all these tarrifs u need proper customs points, as far as i know they haven't even started building them yet.

Same in NI if there needs to be customs checkpoints it will be a massive undertaking to build them.

 

Unfortunately the way things are going no one will get wot they hoped for.

Uncertainty is the last thing we need the now, althou to be fair May/government where absolutley uselss anyway.

Would love to think it can only get better but sadly the oppisate is true, they're has never been a time with so few truely statesman like MP's no matter wot colour they wear

[oowee]

But leavers chose this chaos, what did you expect ? After the vote dust had settled and common sense started to come to the fore the implications and reality of the vote dawned on the dim witted slow learners that supported it. It's only natural then in the dawning of reality that some efforts go in to protect the citizens of this country. 

Carry on up the Khyber ?

[motty]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

But leavers chose this chaos, what did you expect ? After the vote dust had settled and common sense started to come to the fore the implications and reality of the vote dawned on the dim witted slow learners that supported it. It's only natural then in the dawning of reality that some efforts go in to protect the citizens of this country. 

Carry on up the Khyber ?

You're an idiot.

[oowee]

Just now, motty said:

You're an idiot.

Just a realist. 

[motty]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Just a realist. 

Of course. Still pedalling the notion that all leave voters are retarded!

[besty57]

58 minutes ago, oowee said:

Will you quitters stop your moaning!!! You voted for chaos and now you are getting what you voted for. Don't trust the politicians ? dont make me laugh you voted to give them more power and now you are moaning about that. Lets get on with it. 

Bit of a cheek you lot have spent over two years moaning about the result,

[motty]

Personally I think we should have another referendum. It would show a FAR bigger majority of leave votes than the original referendum.

[Bazooka Joe]

Leadership challenge on the cards apparently according to LBC, counting the letters to see if they have the magic number of 48.

[Retsdon]

Here's my tu'ppence worth. 

What's needed is a time-out. At the moment there's neither a political party in Britain nor a civil service department that's capable of negotiating with Brussels on anything like even terms of competence. It's like watching Merthyr All-Stars playing Brazil. What's more, Merthyr don't even know that they want to win the game. The whole thing's pathetic - time to blow the whistle and regroup.

Then have a think.

It should be borne in mind that the EU is not a fixed entity. It used to be the Common Market, it became the EU, and  there's nothing cast in stone that says it can't or shouldn't change again in a different direction. Many of the sentiments that drove the Brexit vote are equally vehemently held throughout Europe by the peoples of other countries. Just because the sneaky proponents of a US of Europe have held sway for the last couple of decades doesn't mean to say that they need perforce to do so indefinitely. In fact, their star is on the wane. There are plenty of people in Europe absolutely up for more independence. Britain could and shoiuld lead that political movement. Instead we're taking our ball home.By leaving we are pitting ourselves against not only the centralists but our own natural allies in the EU.

In a straight negotiation we're going to get steamrollered by the EU. Brussels will not, under any circumstances, betray the integrity of the single market because to do so would be to drive a stake through the heart of the whole Common Market/Eu raison d'etre. Yet that is precisely what May's cretinous government keeps proposing. It's like watching something from the theatre of the absurd. 

People need to wake up and actually analyze what leaving the Single Market with no kind of a deal will mean in practical terms. This isn't about politics or principles, it's about the reality of trade. Without a proper agreement, under WTO anti-discrimination laws  the EU wouldn't even be able to help with lowered tariffs or standards even if it wanted to. And what's more all our trade agreements for the last 40 years with just about every country on the planet will need to be renegotiated just when the country is at its weakest. Why would we do this to ourselves for no reason?

And so on, and so on, and so on,

When the bus is headed for an obvious cliff, only a fool cries faster! faster! Stop the bus and have a look around, The cliff will still be there if needs be, but maybe there's another road.

And the moral of the story about the boy crying wolf was that, in the finish, the wolf was real!

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Retsdon
typos

[scotslad]

3 minutes ago, motty said:

Personally I think we should have another referendum. It would show a FAR bigger majority of leave votes than the original referendum.

 

I think ur kidding urself with that 1, esp when u can see the choas that has erupted already.

Fear would play a major part and i'm sure many would vote for the status quo if they got a 2nd chance, not because they believe in t just because its the safe option.

If more folk would vote to leave now why at the GE did tories lose their majority and Ukip were wiped out?

 

While u may think owee is an idiot, he makes a lot of good points.

Brexit was always gong to be massively complicated anyway, and cause massive ammounts of uncertainty to many companies and when u throw in the worst government in living memory who couldnae organise a bevy in a brewery.

Its only making it 10/100 times worse

 

[12gauge82]

50 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

...but under what terms? The devil is in the detail.

Under the terms of leave, it's really very simple, we voted to leave the customs union, the single market and end free movement of people, no soft or hard or medium boiled, these were terms invented by remainers when they lost. Out, it's as simple as that!

[motty]

4 minutes ago, scotslad said:

 

I think ur kidding urself with that 1, esp when u can see the choas that has erupted already.

Fear would play a major part and i'm sure many would vote for the status quo if they got a 2nd chance, not because they believe in t just because its the safe option.

If more folk would vote to leave now why at the GE did tories lose their majority and Ukip were wiped out?

 

While u may think owee is an idiot, he makes a lot of good points.

Brexit was always gong to be massively complicated anyway, and cause massive ammounts of uncertainty to many companies and when u throw in the worst government in living memory who couldnae organise a bevy in a brewery.

Its only making it 10/100 times worse

 

He made some good points? And they were....?

[AVB]

Unfortunately the Conservative Party cannot be reconciled. Europe has always split the Conservatives and always will. A General Election would result in Corbyn getting in mainly because the average voter is fed up of the farce and not realising what a dangerous **** Corbyn is. 

I don’t see a way out of this. What I think will happen is that, out of the kindness of their heart Europe will extend our membership indefinitely, probably whilst charging a premium for doing so.  

I can’t see us leaving. The remoaners and other mugs like Oowee will undoubtably  be delighted.

 

[motty]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

Under the terms of leave, it's really very simple, we voted to leave the customs union, the single market and end free movement of people, no soft or hard or medium boiled, these were terms invented by remainers when they lost. Out, it's as simple as that!

Exactly. I believe the constant remoaner bleating has helped hamper the path to democracy.