Brexit - merged threads

[ordnance]

Quote

persuade the Northern Irish that unification with the south is in their best interests? £10 billion saved, and a wet border. So no need for customs unions or any of that stuff either. An win / win result. What's not to like?

Yeah good luck with that LOL 3O years of Terrorist violence couldn't force them, so i am not sure how you would persuade them.   it would be easier to persuade the EU that they owe the UK 40 billion. Maybe better persuading the Irish government to stop using the border as a excuse to get what they want. If there is no deal they will be the ones required by the EU to set up a hard border. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Yeah good luck with that LOL, it would be easier to persuade the EU that they owe the UK 40 billion. Maybe better persuading the Irish government to stop using the border as a excuse to get what they want. If there is no deal they will be the ones required by the EU to set up a hard border. 

👍 Yes at THEIR cost.

[ordnance]

Just now, Rewulf said:

👍 Yes at THEIR cost.

That's the problem for the Irish government and why they are pushing so hard for the deal. No Irish government could even if instructed by the EU set up a hard border, it would be political suicide. But they are playing a dangerous game, their playing hard ball on the backstop could end in a no deal if so they would be the biggest losers. Their negotiation  stance could lead to the very thing they are trying so hard to avoid. 

[Dave-G]

I must be very naive, in my little tiny mind all that needs to be done pursuade the EU to charge a membership fee and allow a zero tariff trade agreemment with anyone who is up for doing business with them. If they cannot do that without adding in forced extras other countries ought to say NEIN untill they do.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Dave-G

[pinfireman]

19 hours ago, Retsdon said:

As I pointed out, times change from time to time. The majority of Northern Irish also wishto stay in the EU. Given that the two wishes are now mutually exclusive, perhaps they should be given a vote to decide which one they'd like to go with? It would seem fair enough to me...

100 / 1 they vote to stay in the Union! They did not go through 30 years of terror from the IRA, to leave the Union for the  unelected dictatorship of the EU!

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

👍 Yes at THEIR cost.

CORRECT!

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You know hes doing this I presume ?

 

Is that a conflict of interest ?
 

The answers are NO, and YES!  Easy to  babble on when you spend most of your time away from here.............

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, having lived through the years on joining the EU and all that entailed right up to the point of the the peoples vote i was sincerely hoping our Prime Minister would stand up for this country and tell the other 27 countries and Barnier and his gang we will not be bullied in to submission for a deal you want us to have and not in the interest of the UK and wishes of the people even though the vote was a small margin to leave, now from what has been proposed by TM in her deal and what we had hoped for seems so far apart even i would have signed a resignation letter and back the 6 MPs who state this is such a bad deal even a no deal is better and we just leave the EU next march and say England is open for business but remember we buy goods and services from your countries by the ££££££££ billions so let us go in peace and still be 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, having lived through the years on joining the EU and all that entailed right up to the point of the the peoples vote i was sincerely hoping our Prime Minister would stand up for this country and tell the other 27 countries and Barnier and his gang we will not be bullied in to submission for a deal you want us to have and not in the interest of the UK and wishes of the people even though the vote was a small margin to leave, now from what has been proposed by TM in her deal and what we had hoped for seems so far apart even i would have signed a resignation letter and back the 6 MPs who state this is such a bad deal even a no deal is better and we just leave the EU next march and say England is open for business but remember we buy goods and services from your countries by the ££££££££ billions so let us go in peace and still be 

I really don't understand what sort of deal people expect. We can have Canada or one of the others its a given but we seem to want something special. We had it all when we were in the club but we were still not happy. Now when we are on the outside we will clearly get less that's I would have thought obvious. 

[JRDS]

Nobody voted for 'a deal' it didn't get a mention in the Referendum.  'A Deal' is something invented by Remoaners to tie us to the EU forever, the default was leave on WTO then negotiate once we have left.

[panoma1]

The UK had something, but it was not worth our sovereignty or £350 million a day! Now we want to leave they want to punish us and make us pay for the priviledge, give up our sovereignty tied to the EU forever, jeopardise the union and not have any say in decisions that determine our future!.......we would have to be mad to accept that! 

Tell them to **** off! That we will not be bullied or dictated to, tell them what we want (don't ask them what they want!) and if they don't agree, walk away........if the UK just walks away....it is not just the UK that will be damaged.......the EU will be too! The UK will survive, but the EU will fold, as without our money, they cannot pay their employees the obscene salaries and pensions they receive and hand out money to EU members who have (and will) never put in!.....

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, having lived through the years on joining the EU and all that entailed right up to the point of the the peoples vote i was sincerely hoping our Prime Minister would stand up for this country and tell the other 27 countries and Barnier and his gang we will not be bullied in to submission for a deal you want us to have and not in the interest of the UK and wishes of the people even though the vote was a small margin to leave, now from what has been proposed by TM in her deal and what we had hoped for seems so far apart even i would have signed a resignation letter and back the 6 MPs who state this is such a bad deal even a no deal is better and we just leave the EU next march and say England is open for business but remember we buy goods and services from your countries by the ££££££££ billions so let us go in peace and still be 

That is the commonsense approach, so it will be rejected by politicians, who are not known for being sensible!

[pinfireman]

30 minutes ago, oowee said:

I really don't understand what sort of deal people expect. We can have Canada or one of the others its a given but we seem to want something special. We had it all when we were in the club but we were still not happy. Now when we are on the outside we will clearly get less that's I would have thought obvious. 

We had NOTHING whilst we were in the "club"! NOTHING!  Just look at our brand name companies that were given EU grants to LEAVE Britain, and locate in Poland, Slovakia etc. We were just one voice in 28, and that was a voice seldom heard!  When an island the size and population like Malta has the same power, it,s a joke! Apart from financial services, our industries have been picked clean by the EU vultures! In the EU, nationalised industries are frowned upon.....unless they are French!  The French car industriy is part owned by the French government, but we could not support our own?  Outside, we can trade openly with the world,s biggest economies, not a slowly failing EU..........and it is failing!

9 minutes ago, JRDS said:

Nobody voted for 'a deal' it didn't get a mention in the Referendum.  'A Deal' is something invented by Remoaners to tie us to the EU forever, the default was leave on WTO then negotiate once we have left.

CORRECT!

8 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The UK had something, but it was not worth our sovereignty or £350 million a day! Now we want to leave they want to punish us and make us pay for the priviledge, give up our sovereignty tied to the EU forever, jeopardise the union and not have any say in decisions that determine our future!.......we would have to be mad to accept that! 

Tell them to **** off! That we will not be bullied or dictated to, tell them what we want (don't ask them what they want!) and if they don't agree, walk away........if the UK just walks away....it is not just the UK that will be damaged.......the EU will be too! The UK will survive, but the EU will fold, as without our money, they cannot pay their employees the obscene salaries and pensions they receive and hand out money to EU members who have (and will) never put in!.....

Well said!

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I really don't understand what sort of deal people expect.

People expect to leave.  That is not what is in the current 'deal' which ties us in until some (unspecified) time in the future on a 'backstop' that we cannot leave without 'permission'.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

We had it all when we were in the club but we were still not happy.

'All' being a pile of rules and regulations we didn't want or need, an invoice for eye watering amounts at regular intervals, and the prospect of an 'ever closer union'.

I actually voted (as I have said many times on here) to remain - because I wasn't clear on what sort of terms we would be leaving under.  However the vote went leave, so leave we MUST.  What was clear to me was that if the vote went to leave (as it did)  ........ we would leave.  It now seems that we 'leave' the European talking shop (Parliament), but keep all the rules, the invoices, and their control over us.  That is unacceptable and is not what anyone I talk to (leaver or remainer) understood as 'leave'.

[JohnfromUK]

I see that Sir Graham Brady (1922 committee chairman) says he hasn't had the 48 letters needed to trigger a Tory leadership election - and that some MP's have lied about sending them.  That's a new one isn't it ......... an MP lying!

MPs really do seem to be the most dreadful lying, greedy, dishonourable, and disloyal scum around.  But then the wise on this forum already knew that.

I now have an uneasy worry that the 'leave deal' will even include scrapping then pound and joining the Euro, and replacing HM the Queen with Jean Claude Juncker hidden in the small print!

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I see that Sir Graham Brady (1922 committee chairman) says he hasn't had the 48 letters needed to trigger a Tory leadership election - and that some MP's have lied about sending them.  That's a new one isn't it ......... an MP lying!

MPs really do seem to be the most dreadful lying, greedy, dishonourable, and disloyal scum around.  But then the wise on this forum already knew that.

I now have an uneasy worry that the 'leave deal' will even include scrapping then pound and joining the Euro, and replacing HM the Queen with Jean Claude Juncker hidden in the small print!

Doesn't need to be hidden! Even If it were written in bold capitals, our PM would accept it

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

I really don't understand what sort of deal people expect. We can have Canada or one of the others its a given but we seem to want something special. We had it all when we were in the club but we were still not happy. Now when we are on the outside we will clearly get less that's I would have thought obvious. 

I really don't understand why so many remoaners can't except the result of the referendum and the FACT that if the EU won't give us a free trade deal, we should be walking away with a no deal (also known as a hard brexit), as was made clear before we had the referendum.

[oowee]

3 hours ago, pinfireman said:

We had NOTHING whilst we were in the "club"! NOTHING!  Just look at our brand name companies that were given EU grants to LEAVE Britain, and locate in Poland, Slovakia etc. We were just one voice in 28, and that was a voice seldom heard!  When an island the size and population like Malta has the same power, it,s a joke! Apart from financial services, our industries have been picked clean by the EU vultures! In the EU, nationalised industries are frowned upon.....unless they are French!  The French car industriy is part owned by the French government, but we could not support our own?  Outside, we can trade openly with the world,s biggest economies, not a slowly failing EU..........and it is failing!

 

Friction and tariff free trade.

Name one and don't say JLR as they are Indian. The package for the Nissan Leaf design in Cranfield and Manufacture in NE was won against France, jaguar when it was Ford in Castle Bromwich won against the States. These things are not easy to win and avoid State Aid, any deal including in France or Italy is scrutinised very carefully, particularly by the loosers only too quick to point out unfair aid. There is / was a Million sqft wafer fab plant built in Scotland that was never occupied in part due to state aid rules and payback clauses. 

The UK had a weighted voice worth more for voting than a 1 in 28. Problem was that the Euro politicians work in groups and we had the like of Farage along for the free ride. 

You mean by competition? 

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

People expect to leave.  That is not what is in the current 'deal' which ties us in until some (unspecified) time in the future on a 'backstop' that we cannot leave without 'permission'.

'All' being a pile of rules and regulations we didn't want or need, an invoice for eye watering amounts at regular intervals, and the prospect of an 'ever closer union'.

I actually voted (as I have said many times on here) to remain - because I wasn't clear on what sort of terms we would be leaving under.  However the vote went leave, so leave we MUST.  What was clear to me was that if the vote went to leave (as it did)  ........ we would leave.  It now seems that we 'leave' the European talking shop (Parliament), but keep all the rules, the invoices, and their control over us.  That is unacceptable and is not what anyone I talk to (leaver or remainer) understood as 'leave'.

I would not disagree but say again what sort of deal would people expect to get out of the club? 

10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I really don't understand why so many remoaners can't except the result of the referendum and the FACT that if the EU won't give us a free trade deal, we should be walking away with a no deal (also known as a hard brexit), as was made clear before we had the referendum.

? What does that have to do with the type of deal we would expect? I would not expect a free trade deal from the EU. Why would they want to do that? I would not expect a free trade deal from anyone else. Nothing in life is free. Everything comes at a cost. 

 

My point being that given the vote to leave we then have a simple choice to accept a Canada or whatever type of deal. Move forward with that a build on it over time. Alternatively bite the no deal bullet at the start take the early hit (cost) plan for it and work forward to a trade deal on the basis we have gone. Politically it's not possible for the party in power to suffer the economic impact of no deal so quickly or to take a lesser Canada or whatever deal so we try to square the circle. Squaring the circle is always going to produce a fudge with no one happy.  Hence my statement what type of deal would people expect? 

[12gauge82]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

Friction and tariff free trade.

Name one and don't say JLR as they are Indian. The package for the Nissan Leaf design in Cranfield and Manufacture in NE was won against France, jaguar when it was Ford in Castle Bromwich won against the States. These things are not easy to win and avoid State Aid, any deal including in France or Italy is scrutinised very carefully, particularly by the loosers only too quick to point out unfair aid. There is / was a Million sqft wafer fab plant built in Scotland that was never occupied in part due to state aid rules and payback clauses. 

The UK had a weighted voice worth more for voting than a 1 in 28. Problem was that the Euro politicians work in groups and we had the like of Farage along for the free ride. 

You mean by competition? 

I would not disagree but say again what sort of deal would people expect to get out of the club? 

? What does that have to do with the type of deal we would expect? I would not expect a free trade deal from the EU. Why would they want to do that? I would not expect a free trade deal from anyone else. Nothing in life is free. Everything comes at a cost. 

 

My point being that given the vote to leave we then have a simple choice to accept a Canada or whatever type of deal. Move forward with that a build on it over time. Alternatively bite the no deal bullet at the start take the early hit (cost) plan for it and work forward to a trade deal on the basis we have gone. Politically it's not possible for the party in power to suffer the economic impact of no deal so quickly or to take a lesser Canada or whatever deal so we try to square the circle. Squaring the circle is always going to produce a fudge with no one happy.  Hence my statement what type of deal would people expect? 

We would expect a free trade deal that does not involve the rules the UK had to obey to be a member of the EU, I accept that, that is up to the EU and they have the right to refuse to offer it, in which case I expect our spinless politicians to deliver the promise they made before the referendum and leave the EU club, not just in name, but all the rules the UK was previously bound to by being in the EU club, as the people voted, which would mean a hard brexit.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

I would not disagree but say again what sort of deal would people expect to get out of the club?

I would expect;

• Control over our borders for work/residency ....... not necessarily exclusion at all - just the right to 'do it our way' and have/exclude who WE choose.
• Our own sovereignty - i.e. laws set by the Westminster, and Edinburgh Parliaments and the Belfast (when operating) and Cardiff assemblies, and laws upheld by similar UK courts.  No dominant or overriding role for European Parliaments, Commissions, Courts.
• Free trade and travel for leisure (i.e. short term stays, short term work etc.) both ways
• The FULL ability to make our own worldwide trade without EU interference/veto
• A 'divorce bill' that recognises out liabilities (e.g. some pension commitments etc.) and our 'assets' (i.e. a share in some projects, installations and facilities.  I would expect the balance to be in their favour, but to MUCH less than £40 billion.
• FULL control over fishing in our waters
• Co-operation on security and criminal pursuit (extradition etc.) matters (both ways)

I would hope for:

• A friendly and co-operative future relationship in all matters

I would not expect a continual 'winging' about us gaining advantages by not following all of their 'rules'.  If we gain an advantage, it is most likely because the 'rules' are overbearing and over complex (or just plain wrong).  They should look at removing rules that put them at a disadvantage rather than blaming us for gaining an advantage.  That is how we, they, and every country in the world needs to be looking to boost trade and do 'better' in the world markets.

T

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I would expect;

• Control over our borders for work/residency ....... not necessarily exclusion at all - just the right to 'do it our way' and have/exclude who WE choose.
• Our own sovereignty - i.e. laws set by the Westminster, and Edinburgh Parliaments and the Belfast (when operating) and Cardiff assemblies, and laws upheld by similar UK courts.  No dominant or overriding role for European Parliaments, Commissions, Courts.
• Free trade and travel for leisure (i.e. short term stays, short term work etc.) both ways
• The FULL ability to make our own worldwide trade without EU interference/veto
• A 'divorce bill' that recognises out liabilities (e.g. some pension commitments etc.) and our 'assets' (i.e. a share in some projects, installations and facilities.  I would expect the balance to be in their favour, but to MUCH less than £40 billion.
• FULL control over fishing in our waters
• Co-operation on security and criminal pursuit (extradition etc.) matters (both ways)

I would hope for:

• A friendly and co-operative future relationship in all matters

I would not expect a continual 'winging' about us gaining advantages by not following all of their 'rules'.  If we gain an advantage, it is most likely because the 'rules' are overbearing and over complex (or just plain wrong).  They should look at removing rules that put them at a disadvantage rather than blaming us for gaining an advantage.  That is how we, they, and every country in the world needs to be looking to boost trade and do 'better' in the world markets.

T

That sounds far tòo reasonable,  too simple and straightforward. 

It'll never work , you need to make it more complicated, throw a non existent border issue in , pay them an obscene amount of money,  then have another vote on it .😃

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Rewulf said:

you need to make it more complicated

I'll leave that to "Sir Humphrey".

But seriously - it ISN'T complicated.  There is a border now - we have quite different VAT, excise duty and taxation to Eire now.  Its Blair who keeps on about there being no border since the Good Friday agreement.  He is as truthful about this as anything else he ever said (i.e. its all lies!).

[yod dropper]

The case against the 585 page document summarised in 6 pages.

http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Your-Right-to-Know.pdf

Taken from here: https://brexitcentral.com/

Edited November 18, 2018 by yod dropper

[Dave-G]

5 hours ago, oowee said:

I really don't understand what sort of deal people expect. We can have Canada or one of the others its a given but we seem to want something special. We had it all when we were in the club but we were still not happy. Now when we are on the outside we will clearly get less that's I would have thought obvious. 

The UK public were very happy to join a common market - but the underhanded EU snidely added so many slippery attachments to it that us too tolerant Brits did'nt kick off about till it got to be too up close and personal. Now we realise we need a serious kick off to get the load of carp sorted out properly.

[yod dropper]

41 minutes ago, oowee said:

Hence my statement what type of deal would people expect? 

That on page 5 of the document on my link, super Canada +.

Edited November 18, 2018 by yod dropper

[oowee]

20 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I would expect;

• Control over our borders for work/residency ....... not necessarily exclusion at all - just the right to 'do it our way' and have/exclude who WE choose.
• Our own sovereignty - i.e. laws set by the Westminster, and Edinburgh Parliaments and the Belfast (when operating) and Cardiff assemblies, and laws upheld by similar UK courts.  No dominant or overriding role for European Parliaments, Commissions, Courts.
• Free trade and travel for leisure (i.e. short term stays, short term work etc.) both ways
• The FULL ability to make our own worldwide trade without EU interference/veto
• A 'divorce bill' that recognises out liabilities (e.g. some pension commitments etc.) and our 'assets' (i.e. a share in some projects, installations and facilities.  I would expect the balance to be in their favour, but to MUCH less than £40 billion.
• FULL control over fishing in our waters
• Co-operation on security and criminal pursuit (extradition etc.) matters (both ways)

I would hope for:

• A friendly and co-operative future relationship in all matters

I would not expect a continual 'winging' about us gaining advantages by not following all of their 'rules'.  If we gain an advantage, it is most likely because the 'rules' are overbearing and over complex (or just plain wrong).  They should look at removing rules that put them at a disadvantage rather than blaming us for gaining an advantage.  That is how we, they, and every country in the world needs to be looking to boost trade and do 'better' in the world markets.

T

Is it reasonable to expect free trade where in future are standards do not match those of the EU? What are we doing with the Irish border in this scenario? What EU rules put the EU at a disadvantage? I would agree with you about looking to boost trade but surely it's not trade at any cost? I hope we have morals and standards (even if we bend them now and again) that we encourage others to adopt through our trade policies?

[yod dropper]

Summary: The case against the proposed Withdrawal Agreement

1. We would hand over £39 billion of taxpayer’s money with nothing guaranteed in return. Under the proposal the UK would agree a financial settlement with the EU of c.£39 billion, made up of various elements, including continued EU budget contributions during the transition period (up to December 2020), contributions to unfunded EU commitments and EU pensions. Despite offering this vast sum of British taxpayer’s money the United Kingdom is not guaranteed any future trading arrangements, which are still to be negotiated.

2. The UK will remain a ‘rule taker’ over large areas of EU law. The UK will continue to be bound by EU laws in vital areas such as social policy, environmental policy and employment policy, i.e will obey EU laws, but have no further influence over how they are drafted. We will thus become a ‘rule taker’ and will have surrendered our sovereignty in these critical areas.

3. No exit from a ‘backstop’ Customs Union. The agreement establishes a ‘joint committee’ which will oversee the UK’s ability to proceed to a future trade relationship. If this relationship cannot be agreed by both parties the UK will enter a so called ‘backstop’ Customs Union with the EU, despite many public assurances to the contrary and directly at variance with the Conservative Party’s 2017 General Election manifesto. We could only subsequently leave the Customs Union with the agreement of the EU. While we remain in a Customs Union we would be unable to strike international trade deals without the EU’s permission.

4. The Agreement creates internal borders within the UK. Northern Ireland would become a ‘rule taker’ in further areas such as goods, agricultural products and VAT compared to the rest of the UK. This threatens the internal integrity of the United Kingdom and is completely unacceptable to the Democratic Unionist Party on whom the Conservative Party now rely for a majority in the House of Commons.

5. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) will remain in control of the agreement and large areas of EU law directly effective in the UK. The ECJ will remain as the final arbiter of the agreement and of the EU laws the UK will be subject to.

Edited November 18, 2018 by yod dropper