Brexit - merged threads

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes.

The US previously asked for access to the NHS as part of free trade. 

Trade agreements are always about mutual reciprocation. I will sell you this in exchange for you selling me that. 

Emerging markets are mostly (except finance) about low cost production. We mostly want WTO terms in place to protect our markets as best we can. We don't want unfettered access to many of these markets if it means (which it will) unfettered access to our own.  

Canada buys submarines from us together with the refit's and on going maintenance but these things are also controlled. 

So if we set up a deal with, for example Zambia to buy bananas, but they dont want or need anything from us, we cant buy bananas from them ?

Trade is trade, and is not defined by governments, it might be controlled by government, but the demand side is usually defined by populace, and price.
If the big supermarkets want to put American goods on the shelves they can ,and do already.
If no one buys them, then they will stop putting them on the shelves and stop buying them.
Im not sure why you are trying to complicate a simple supply and demand situation.
Your scenario says that British customers will be FORCED to buy American food.
A total fallacy.

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So if we set up a deal with, for example Zambia to buy bananas, but they dont want or need anything from us, we cant buy bananas from them ?

Trade is trade, and is not defined by governments, it might be controlled by government, but the demand side is usually defined by populace, and price.
If the big supermarkets want to put American goods on the shelves they can ,and do already.
If no one buys them, then they will stop putting them on the shelves and stop buying them.
Im not sure why you are trying to complicate a simple supply and demand situation.
Your scenario says that British customers will be FORCED to buy American food.
A total fallacy.

We don't need a trade deal to buy bananas from Zambia we could just buy them. What would be the point of a trade deal? Unless of course we wanted to improve the way that the product was produced to protect the environment or something else. In which case we could set up some arrangement (this is done for sugar). Otherwise no need to do anything just buy them. 

The consumer buys what they want. In the case of cheap food (ie US beef cereal and chicken) they would probably choose this if it were available, over more expensive other products from the UK. This would displace UK produce, unless our farmers adopted the same techniques. They are not currently allowed to do this because of health concerns. Hence why we don't want these goods. 

 

[12gauge82]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So if we set up a deal with, for example Zambia to buy bananas, but they dont want or need anything from us, we cant buy bananas from them ?

Trade is trade, and is not defined by governments, it might be controlled by government, but the demand side is usually defined by populace, and price.
If the big supermarkets want to put American goods on the shelves they can ,and do already.
If no one buys them, then they will stop putting them on the shelves and stop buying them.
Im not sure why you are trying to complicate a simple supply and demand situation.
Your scenario says that British customers will be FORCED to buy American food.
A total fallacy.

Bang on.

 

The EU is killing the market and has created artificially high prices through protectionist trade policys, which has stiffled completion and led to ineffective company's on the continent being protected at the cost of UK ones, the best bit is they use our own money to do it, it's crazy, if we weren't in the EU and they asked us to join a club like that, the UK population would laugh at them, some of these remoaners need to grow a pair and have a bit of confidence in the UK and have some thought for the average hard working Brit rather than their own empires.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

We don't need a trade deal to buy bananas from Zambia we could just buy them. What would be the point of a trade deal? Unless of course we wanted to improve the way that the product was produced to protect the environment or something else. In which case we could set up some arrangement (this is done for sugar). Otherwise no need to do anything just buy them. 

The consumer buys what they want. In the case of cheap food (ie US beef cereal and chicken) they would probably choose this if it were available, over more expensive other products from the UK. This would displace UK produce, unless our farmers adopted the same techniques. They are not currently allowed to do this because of health concerns. Hence why we don't want these goods. 

 

That's why a deal would be done, if we are going to allow cheap meat into the country it would be against something the UK has that the USA would buy, rather than as the EU does now, slap huge import taxes on anything that competes, propping up inefficient company's, with the net result being we massively over pay for inferior products in a small trade market. It makes me chuckle when the remainiacs bang on about little England when it's the Brexiters who want to open up trade with the entire globe and not just hang on to the EUs coat tales.

[oowee]

18 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's why a deal would be done, if we are going to allow cheap meat into the country it would be against something the UK has that the USA would buy, rather than as the EU does now, slap huge import taxes on anything that competes, propping up inefficient company's, with the net result being we massively over pay for inferior products in a small trade market. It makes me chuckle when the remainiacs bang on about little England when it's the Brexiters who want to open up trade with the entire globe and not just hang on to the EUs coat tales.

What would we sell to the US that we don't already? 

Are you saying you want the UK to allow the US food products currently blocked to be sold here? Undercutting UK farmers? Putting our health at risk? The UK lead the blockage on GM products for the EU. 

The EU blocks these goods now by agreement we would not change this when we leave. We have trade with the rest of the globe now. What we are talking about is trade agreements. It makes me cry with laughter when i see how little some understand about global trade. 

[12gauge82]

23 minutes ago, oowee said:

What would we sell to the US that we don't already? 

Are you saying you want the UK to allow the US food products currently blocked to be sold here? Undercutting UK farmers? Putting our health at risk? The UK lead the blockage on GM products for the EU. 

The EU blocks these goods now by agreement we would not change this when we leave. We have trade with the rest of the globe now. What we are talking about is trade agreements. It makes me cry with laughter when i see how little some understand about global trade. 

We can't trade with the rest of the world at all, any deal done has to be negotiated by the EU on our behalf, often times at our expense and others like Germany's gain, how do you think our manufacturing sectors doing? Or our heavy industries like steel? 

Besides, all this is besides the point, the majority of the country agree with me, a democratic vote was held, and we decided to leave, why do you think that your opinion is worth more than the electorate who voted in the referendum?

[oowee]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

We can't trade with the rest of the world at all, any deal done has to be negotiated by the EU on our behalf, often times at our expense and others like Germany's gain, how do you think our manufacturing sectors doing? Or our heavy industries like steel? 

Besides, all this is besides the point, the majority of the country agree with me, a democratic vote was held, and we decided to leave, why do you think that your opinion is worth more than the electorate who voted in the referendum?

We can trade with all the world now. We don't have a trade deal with everyone. The trade deals are to protect certain industries. Without the deals some sectors would do even worse than they have been. Heavy industries in the UK loose not because of the trade deal but despite the trade deals. Even without a trade deal and relying on WTO tariff some industries will struggle to compete. The issue is not about if we do or don't have a trade deal.

? where did that come from ? lol. I agree with you too a vote was held and we decided to leave. 

My opinion is just one of many in the electorate who voted in the referendum. All opinions are just that 'opinions'.

[12gauge82]

17 minutes ago, oowee said:

We can trade with all the world now. We don't have a trade deal with everyone. The trade deals are to protect certain industries. Without the deals some sectors would do even worse than they have been. Heavy industries in the UK loose not because of the trade deal but despite the trade deals. Even without a trade deal and relying on WTO tariff some industries will struggle to compete. The issue is not about if we do or don't have a trade deal.

? where did that come from ? lol. I agree with you too a vote was held and we decided to leave. 

My opinion is just one of many in the electorate who voted in the referendum. All opinions are just that 'opinions'.

Fair enough, I thought you were arguing to ignore the referendum and stay in, it wasn't a personal attack anyway.

I've got to disagree on the trade issue, when you strip it back to basics, imagine the EU is a supermarket, we are paying billions of pounds a year to be a member of Tesco for arguments sake, part of this club means we can only shop at Tesco and no one else without their say so, if we decide to leave we will no longer be able to buy or sell at Tesco, however, we get to keep our billions of pounds plus we can shop at Sainsbury's, Morrisons, Waitrose, Aldi ect ect ect, that doesn't even include that we are governed by foreign courts, have to allow any Tom **** or Harry into the country give up our fishing waters, it goes on and on and on, the EU doesn't make sense.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

What would we sell to the US that we don't already? 

Are you saying you want the UK to allow the US food products currently blocked to be sold here? Undercutting UK farmers? Putting our health at risk? The UK lead the blockage on GM products for the EU. 

The EU blocks these goods now by agreement we would not change this when we leave. We have trade with the rest of the globe now. What we are talking about is trade agreements. It makes me cry with laughter when i see how little some understand about global trade. 

Does it really ?
It makes me cringe when people can only think of the negative parts of Brexit, like they WANT the country to fall flat on its face ,so they can be proved right.
Its a strange idea, like we will be smashed to pieces in the coming 'trade wars' whilst France and Germany will just shrug it off ?
 
Your negativity has singled out a scenario where we are literally force fed US GM and chemically altered food !
I could counter that if US food was so bad, why dont we sell them ours, because we never have issues with our food quality do we ? ?

How do you know that American farmers could bust our farmers on price, when was the last time you shopped in an American supermarket, last time I was there the meats were around the same price as ours, Canadian meat was considerably more expensive.

But the examples are moot, you have already said we dont NEED  a trade deal to trade, so we dont actually have to buy their food, or anything else for that matter, but if we do we can.
What is the hard bit to understand in that ?

The general idea, is if we want to do something, we can go ahead and do it, without having to go cap in hand and 'ask' Brussels if we're allowed .
The simple fact of the  matter, and you can hardly argue this, is things will likely as not change much, we shall still deal with Europe just as much as we do now, why would we not?
Its hardly the iron curtain falling across the channel is it, despite what project fear mk 2 says.

The people will define how we do business, ALL the people of Europe, including us.

[matone]

You can argue in circles forever BUT ,this is our `last chance saloon` if we want to be an independent country with our own place in the world .

We either make a clean break from our `friends` in Europe or stay forever subjugated by them ,to be used as a dumping ground for people and produce.

The choice really is that simple imho.

[Dave-G]

My two penny worth - I'm English, which is an island with a queen and elected government, I could stretch that to being British. I do not consider myself or my family to be partly European and resent being obliged to follow EU diktats. An interpretation of diktat is:

Diktat - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diktat

1.  
2.  

A diktat is a statute, harsh penalty or settlement imposed upon a defeated party by the victor, or a dogmatic decree.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Dave-G

[matone]

2 hours ago, Dave-G said:

My two penny worth - I'm English, which is an island with a queen and elected government, I could stretch that to being British. I do not consider myself or my family to be partly European and resent being obliged to follow EU diktats. An interpretation of diktat is:

Diktat - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diktat

1.  
2.  

A diktat is a statute, harsh penalty or settlement imposed upon a defeated party by the victor, or a dogmatic decree.

+1

[Mice!]

12 hours ago, yod dropper said:

We have a great deal of soft power around the world, a moral authority.  This is surely being diminished as large numbers of influential people seek to overturn the result of a vote because they didn't agree with the result.  I believe it was in the chaotic pseudo-democratic Venezuela where the President overturned the result of a referendum and you could pick one of several sub-Saharan countries where the President ignores the election results and chooses to cling on to power.  Rightly, we bring some pressure to bear on these countries.  These actions are not that far removed, at the least in attitude to the likes of Blair, Clegg and many more.  This is far more serious than I think has been acknowledged.  It makes us hypocrites.

 

while i agree with you, who is going to place embargos on us or fly in troops to make us behave? One rule for us.......

[Mice!]

7 hours ago, matone said:

You can argue in circles forever BUT ,this is our `last chance saloon` if we want to be an independent country with our own place in the world .

We either make a clean break from our `friends` in Europe or stay forever subjugated by them ,to be used as a dumping ground for people and produce.

The choice really is that simple imho.

Absolutely, for me we get out now, take back control of our borders and laws.

Yes things may get a little rocky with trade but it will sort its self out, we buy and others buy from us and it will still happen, but hopefully when my kids grow up there will be jobs houses and a Great Britain, not just a European state ruled from afar.

This has already been stopped three times from happening before, this time instead of wars its trade but the same outcome is what people want, on both sides.

[12gauge82]

19 hours ago, yod dropper said:

We have a great deal of soft power around the world, a moral authority.  This is surely being diminished as large numbers of influential people seek to overturn the result of a vote because they didn't agree with the result.  I believe it was in the chaotic pseudo-democratic Venezuela where the President overturned the result of a referendum and you could pick one of several sub-Saharan countries where the President ignores the election results and chooses to cling on to power.  Rightly, we bring some pressure to bear on these countries.  These actions are not that far removed, at the least in attitude to the likes of Blair, Clegg and many more.  This is far more serious than I think has been acknowledged.  It makes us hypocrites.

 

I missed this earlier, absaloutly spot on, in my opinion it's the bigger issue, even more so than Brexit, if Brexit isn't completed in the spirit of the referendum, I beleive the people will lose all faith in the system and not just the government/s of today.

[matone]

It`s our democracy that is at stake really.

[yod dropper]

During the referendum it was absolutely clear that we were voting to be free on matters of trade deals, borders and laws.  Fox, Grayling, Johnson and Gove repeated and repeated this mantra.  Their opposite numbers made it clear that we would be voting to leave the single market.  I've been following the post Chequers events quite closely.  I've barely come across a journalist who hasn't exposed that the white paper will not deliver on what we were told we were voting for.  Neither will it deliver on the Conservative manifesto nor the current Labour position deliver on theirs.  

Now whether you think we should have voted to leave or not, or that we would be better off half in half out it's not difficult to see the democratic deficit and imagine some of the issues that this will present in the near term and in the future.  Politicians cannot offer us a choice then refuse it, ask for our votes then renege on their promises without there being consequences.

 

 

[matone]

Exactly!

History will take a dim view of these people.

[Dave-G]

I've voted conservative at every election of my adult life, even in the certain knowledge that Labours slimy Vaz will always win the locals because the large asian community here clearly approve of dodgy politicians. If the Tories don't take us out of Europe I'll never vote again unless there is a party that will do the deed.

 

How very dare they give out a leave mandate and then renege on it - it feels like we have been diluted to become a third world country. If that sounds racist rather than patriotic and democratic then tough.

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, matone said:

 

History will take a dim view of these people.

The white paper should be published today, and the EU commission will examine it.
They will then ask for more concessions (to their benefit) further frustrating the divisions within the Tories.
The whole Chequers exercise was a waste of time, if the 'rebels' didnt like the draft of the proposal , why didnt they argue that it wasnt what was voted for and set out in the manifesto ?
Too busy thinking of there own profiles.
I see a big shake up coming.

[JRDS]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The white paper should be published today, and the EU commission will examine it.
They will then ask for more concessions (to their benefit) further frustrating the divisions within the Tories.
The whole Chequers exercise was a waste of time, if the 'rebels' didnt like the draft of the proposal , why didnt they argue that it wasnt what was voted for and set out in the manifesto ?
Too busy thinking of there own profiles.
I see a big shake up coming.

Plus she went to either agree it with or pick it up from Merkel the day before Chequers, that is Treason.  Dominic Rabb seems to have sold himself out for his new position I see, there is some real scum residing in the Tory party right now.  You are correct time for a mass clear out.

[dead eye alan]

Yesterday in the commons the silly party (lib dems) had a vote on anouther referendum, the result was 13 for 298 against!  

[panoma1]

24 minutes ago, dead eye alan said:

Yesterday in the commons the silly party (lib dems) had a vote on anouther referendum, the result was 13 for 298 against!  

Really? I saw nothing in the media!!.........strange! I wonder why?  ?

[Dave-G]

38 minutes ago, dead eye alan said:

Yesterday in the commons the silly party (lib dems) had a vote on anouther referendum, the result was 13 for 298 against!  

Is there somewhere we can read about that dea?

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, JRDS said:

Plus she went to either agree it with or pick it up from Merkel the day before Chequers, that is Treason.  Dominic Rabb seems to have sold himself out for his new position I see, there is some real scum residing in the Tory party right now.  You are correct time for a mass clear out.

Yes here's an article on what many of us here already suspected, that Mrs May has probably already agreed behind closed doors with the EU and it's members what "brexit" (in name only) will look like, the negotiations will be staged for the plebs!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/987688/Brexit-news-Theresa-May-brexit-white-paper-angela-merkel-chequers