Brexit - merged threads

[Newbie to this]

seems project fear isn't a new thing!

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Very old hat!

[Rewulf]

Has anyone heard any figures on how many people marched in London today ?

I've heard 'thousands' but that could be 2 to 999 ! not that I'm expecting to get any media coverage on it 😎

Just interested.

[ordnance]

I see the government propaganda has started targeting people in Northern Ireland.  I had a government message appearing on my Facebook page telling us how great the deal with the EU is, i wonder how much that cost. 

[12gauge82]

It's funny how it's morphed from being if Mays deal fails it'll mean a hard brexit, now it's become a reality that Mays deal might not pass, the other options are now

1) Norway style deal (basically not leaving the EU at all and even softer than Mays deal)

2) another referendum with remaining an option

I'd like to know when the option to actually leave the EU is going to come up, because since the country voted to leave, I haven't seen a single option on the table allowing us to?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Does this stupid woman really expect this travesty to get through Parliament?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Has anyone heard any figures on how many people marched in London today ?

I've heard 'thousands' but that could be 2 to 999 ! not that I'm expecting to get any media coverage on it 😎

Just interested.

Is this what you're looking for?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46495595

[JohnfromUK]

Since Tommy Robinson seems to be involved in a high profile role - I think that will put people off.  He is (rightly or wrongly) seen as being racist and verging on fascist.  In my view his presence is wholly counter producrtive - more so since Nigel Farage has very publicly disowned him and the current incarnation of UKIP.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes I agree, TR is not reported upon fairly.

[sportsbob]

I would say a few thousand for the ukip rally was ok and considering London on the whole voted stay it is fair to assume the counter rally would have been attended mostly by Londoners who don't have far to travel. 

[Yellow Bear]

BBC Report seems to be mainly about the left wing momentum  and "anti Nazi" counter demo  -  predictable really.

[panoma1]

If politicians force a carp deal on the UK or conspire to impose another referendum, and the remainers carry on frustrating democracy to finally rob us of Brexit, they better watch out..........the frustrated/disempowered/disenfranchised voters of the UK may well turn to a new party (or a threatened new party lead by Nigel Farage!........In fact any new party!) who will promise them what they voted for...........Brexit...........the current, two main parties risk haemorrhaging votes to them!.........

I certainly would never vote for the Tories again whilst any of the current crop are involved....I couldn't vote Labour whilst Corbin, Mc Donall, Abbot and their momentum, commie buddies run the show, the Lib Dems are a joke.....so, apart from not voting (not an option for me!) what other choice would I have?

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

i wonder how much that cost. 

It was reported that the government spent £50,000 for the recent social media adverts.

[ordnance]

22 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

It was reported that the government spent £50,000 for the recent social media adverts.

Could be worse. I am not sure what the point is, do they expect me to ring my MP and convince him to vote yes. 

Quote

The government says the mail drop will cost £9.3m, or about 34p per household. ... The latest leaflet does not include any images of David Camero

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Is this what you're looking for?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46495595

They seem to have a number for the counter demo ( 15000) but no concise number for the TR demo, was it really a few thousand ?

If so why don't they say a figure ? If they can count 15000 for one side, why not count 2000 for the other ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

They seem to have a number for the counter demo ( 15000) but no concise number for the TR demo, was it really a few thousand ?

If so why don't they say a figure ? If they can count 15000 for one side, why not count 2000 for the other ?

Oh I think we know the answer, it is down to the good old impartial BBCs agenda!

[panoma1]

I see the EU court has ruled the UK can cancel Brexit unilaterally! And we can stay in without penalty!.......the remainers must be ecstatic? another nail in the Brexit coffin?

[Rewulf]

I dont know if you caught Question Time on Thursday, DDs penultimate hosting.
Some of the recent posts on this thread are examined.

What I found interesting was the SNP talking head, whos version of democracy leaves something to be desired, banging on about how the parts of the UK who voted stay are underrepresented , and the process is being subverted by May and parliament.
He wants the whole thing reversed, independence for Scotland (Obviously ! Despite 55% of them voting against it ) because , and here we have it ....'Scotland voted to stay'

Well Im not sure the ENTIRETY of Scotland voted to stay Sir , but hey ? Whats 40 % of youre electorate matter. when you can use it to gain independence that the people probably still dont want ?

[12gauge82]

Just now, Rewulf said:

I dont know if you caught Question Time on Thursday, DDs penultimate hosting.
Some of the recent posts on this thread are examined.

What I found interesting was the SNP talking head, whos version of democracy leaves something to be desired, banging on about how the parts of the UK who voted stay are underrepresented , and the process is being subverted by May and parliament.
He wants the whole thing reversed, independence for Scotland (Obviously ! Despite 55% of them voting against it ) because , and here we have it ....'Scotland voted to stay'

Well Im not sure the ENTIRETY of Scotland voted to stay Sir , but hey ? Whats 40 % of youre electorate matter. when you can use it to gain independence that the people probably still dont want ?

What about the people in Scotland that voted to stay in the EU, maybe they should have their own part of Scotland, it's ludicrous.

[chrisjpainter]

2 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I see the EU court has ruled the UK can cancel Brexit unilaterally! And we can stay in without penalty!.......the remainers must be ecstatic? another nail in the Brexit coffin?

It shouldn't make much of a difference; all it's doing is clarifying something that is law anyway. 

I voted remain and still don't think we should leave, but the only way that a government could countenance cancelling Brexit is if there is a) a general election that the Tories lose and then b) a second referendum that gives a majority to leave. 

In my mind both of those are absolutely necessary - even if it's not legally necessary. But, I don't think there should be a second referendum unless there is a clear, unambiguous call for it, which is probably impossible!

When the government loses the vote, there might be a second referendum on the deal, that may include a choice to stay, but that would have to get a majority over all other options:

a) Yes: Brexit on the Deal's terms

b) No: Brexit but on a different deal

c) No: A hard, no deal brexit

d) No: Remain.

Without d) being above 50% (and preferably by a greater margin than the original result!) no remainer should claim there's a clear appetite for dumping Brexit.

Of course the problem there is that you have the electorate split over 4 options. We weren't great at democracy when there was only a pair of options - I'm not sure how 4 options is going to make it much better! There's no way the country would come to a majority with those four options!

Edited December 10, 2018 by chrisjpainter

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

It shouldn't make much of a difference; all it's doing is clarifying something that is law anyway. 

I think you miss the subtle point here, this is being touted as 'new' news , despite it being in the headlines nearly a week ago.
So , if it seems no one is listening, we shall put it out there again , and again ?
What it is stating also , if you dont get the subtle message, is , WE dont have to ask the EU s PERMISSION to cancel Brexit.
They will in fact ALLOW us to cancel our own democratic process, reverse a fair majority vote, probably collapse our government, and cause us nationwide division and unrest to accommodate our continued subservience to them  , how nice of them ?
Now if this proposed act wasnt in the EUs favour, they would probably have something to say about it , maybe drag us through the ECJ for not following EU constitutional law 

33 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

a) Yes: Brexit on the Deal's terms

b) No: Brexit but on a different deal

c) No: A hard, no deal brexit

d) No: Remain.

Without d) being above 50% (and preferably by a greater margin than the original result!) no remainer should claim there's a clear appetite for dumping Brexit.

Do you really think thats how it would pan out ?

The real latest news from Brussels is that they have firmly stated , 'There will be no further negotiations'
So closing any refinements to Mays doomed deal.

It seems to me , and Im hardly alone, that after all has been said by May et al regarding the red lines of Brexit, slowly but surely we are being pushed into voting again, or worse, just remaining.
Labour have stated that when (not if ) Mays deal is voted down tomorrow, on Wednesday they will try to gain control of government, pending an election. This obviously leads to a labour BRINO deal.

The Hilary Benn ammendment is attempting to make a no deal scenario impossible, which leaves what , if successful ?

No further negotiation.

No May deal.

No hard Brexit/WTO scenario

Canada or Norway deals barely on the table.

What does that leave us?
It doesnt take a genius to work out where this is going, unless someone grows a pair and takes control of the tory ship and steers us away from the rocks of remain.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Labour have stated that when (not if ) Mays deal is voted down tomorrow, on Wednesday they will try to gain control of government, pending an election. This obviously leads to a labour BRINO deal.

 

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The Hilary Benn ammendment is attempting to make a no deal scenario impossible, which leaves what , if successful ?

 

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

What does that leave us?
It doesn't take a genius to work out where this is going, unless someone grows a pair and takes control of the tory ship and steers us away from the rocks of remain.

You could argue that Labour is now a party of "Remain".  Corbyn campaigned for "Remain" at the referendum allegedly because it protected "workers rights".  However, he has in the past been anti EU, having thought it a "capitalist club".  In fact he would support anything he thought would further his own aims as like all politicians - he is basically without principles.  The Labour party as a whole and in the Parliamentary party would probably have a majority of "Remainers", though not in the north.

He is now in the situation where he would campaign for anything he thinks will give him the keys to Downing Street.  Personally, I don't see how a Labour government could ever have any outcome other than "Remain" because;

• The EU will not give a better 'leave deal'.
• He wouldn't get a 'hard brexit' past either Parliament or his own party even if he wanted to.
• The only way he could get anything past Parliament would be with backing of Scots Nats and probably Lib Dems - both of whom are strongly remain.

I still believe that IF Corbyn was to become P.M. - Brexit would in effect be dead in the water and it would be either BRINO or Remain - plus MacDonnell's Marxist economics and Abbott's snowflake law and order ........ and Corbyn's cosying up to Russia - there would be no International trade deals forthcoming anyway - and all business investment would be scared off.

[chrisjpainter]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think you miss the subtle point here, this is being touted as 'new' news...

Do you really think thats how it would pan out ?

It seems to me , and Im hardly alone, that after all has been said by May et al regarding the red lines of Brexit, slowly but surely we are being pushed into voting again, or worse, just remaining.
Labour have stated that when (not if ) Mays deal is voted down tomorrow, on Wednesday they will try to gain control of government, pending an election. This obviously leads to a labour BRINO deal.

The Hilary Benn ammendment is attempting to make a no deal scenario impossible, which leaves what , if successful ?

No further negotiation.

No May deal.

No hard Brexit/WTO scenario

Canada or Norway deals barely on the table.

What does that leave us?
It doesnt take a genius to work out where this is going, unless someone grows a pair and takes control of the tory ship and steers us away from the rocks of remain.

It's news, but not interesting news! I also - and this is slightly cynical of me - wonder whether the decision had been reached ages ago (because it was blatantly obvious anyway) and that the ECJ were waiting for the time when most tasty pro-Remain hay could be made - i.e. when May's deal falls flat on its face in Parliament.

I think IF brexit is to fail, I don't think any government would do it without SOME idea of a consensus from the electorate. So, that might be in the form of a majority in a second vote - either separate or strapped (detonator included) to a deal referendum, or, in the event of a General Election, the Labour Party decides to put in its manifesto to remain in the EU and on the back of a Parliamentary majority victory, declare a mandate to remain based on that. But Labour won't do that, so it'd have to be a second IN-OUT referendum, which Comrade Corbyn has already said is a possibility in the future.

 

Possible, but there aren't enough hard, no deal brexiteer Tories to get that through Parliament. It all comes down to the mathematics of the HoC as it is right now: no one has a seat majority and no one has a viewpoint majority. There aren't enough remainers to stop us leaving, there aren't enough MayDealers to get the dead to rise (I mean deal through), there aren't enough hard brexiteers to get a No Deal brexit through, so...what now? Parliament can't make a decision. The Government's as divided as the total opposition, so I can see how it can feel like the only real choice is to go back to the electorate and say er....HELP!

The trouble is the electorate is as divided as Parliament is, so I'm not convinced going back to the electorate will achieve anything other than more chaos.

Turns out 'Democracy really is the worst form of government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time'

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

• The EU will not give a better 'leave deal'.
• He wouldn't get a 'hard brexit' past either Parliament or his own party even if he wanted to.
• The only way he could get anything past Parliament would be with backing of Scots Nats and probably Lib Dems - both of whom are strongly remain.

I still believe that IF Corbyn was to become P.M. - Brexit would in effect be dead in the water and it would be either BRINO or Remain - plus MacDonnell's Marxist economics and Abbott's snowflake law and order ........ and Corbyn's cosying up to Russia - there would be no International trade deals forthcoming anyway - and all business investment would be scared off.

Agree 100 % 

If Corbyn had done anything different in the last election than support remain, the labour wins would have been seriously curtailed, they would have lost a lot of their northern seats, traditional labour grounds, these days without them and the largely immigrant London boroughs, labour would be half the party it is.

I cant imagine a labour government, my brain wont process it 😂
To think of Corbyn as PM , McDonnell as chancellor and Abbott as Home sec, is like waking up one morning and finding out the worlds been taken over by aliens (and not illegal ones either 😐)

[chrisjpainter]

Spanner in the works...