BREXIT

[Vince Green]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Boris is playing hardball...saying to his Tory MP's "back me, if you don't and the remainers win I'll call a General Election" and threatening those who don't back him will be deselected and prevented from standing for the Tory party at the General Election!

Quite right too!

just what we needed from day one, I'm loving this, Boris has gone up about 200% in my estimation 

[oisin og]

This is the same Boris who voted for May’s deal. (On the third occasion it was put to theCommons, I believe)

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

What on earth is this kipper prattling on about. All this carp re schools and police is a mere distraction from the job in hand.

Progress 🙂 where on what????? Next will be either crash out or GE with even more division. 

Lets come together and get it done says the kipper 👍.  All up for that so lets do it. Sorry I forgot they don't know how to do that. There is no mechanism with our political system to achieve workable compromise. 

 

Quote

This is the same Boris who voted for May’s deal. (On the third occasion it was put to theCommons, I believe)

At last we have a decent Prime Minister, but there are always those lurking who want him to fail. To those who wish him to fail - look at Jezzer Corbyn , Di Abbott, Keir Starmer, John McDonnell and be grateful for Boris.

Whilst I don't believe every poll, find me one which says Boris won't win. Far from more division, they suggest a Brexit win. Just because some don't know how it will be done, it doesn't mean it can't be done. Just a bit of limited thinking. 🙂

 

[Smokersmith]

So it looks like an election ....

Who saw that coming 🧐 ?

[JohnfromUK]

8 hours ago, panoma1 said:

threatening those who don't back him will be deselected and prevented from standing for the Tory party at the General Election!

The problem with this is that they may stand as "Independent Tory" against the official candidate - just to spite Boris; result - split Tory vote = Labour or LibDem win the seat.  From what McDonnell has been saying recently about penalising "buy to let", confiscating shares from Companies with over 250 employees, - it would bring economic disaster.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting to see Comrade Corbyn pronouncing "We are ready for a general Election" last night and then this morning Mary Creagh MP  saying "There is no way the two thirds majority to call a general Election will be reached."

I suppose at least someone at the top of the party has a grip on reality!

[panoma1]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The problem with this is that they may stand as "Independent Tory" against the official candidate - just to spite Boris; result - split Tory vote = Labour or LibDem win the seat.  From what McDonnell has been saying recently about penalising "buy to let", confiscating shares from Companies with over 250 employees, - it would bring economic disaster.

Yep, this sort of thing is commonplace with politicians, a convicted criminal, a bunch of political whores and traitors can frustrate the democratic will of the people, and potentially bring down the democratically elected government!

Forget independent Tory candidates, I believe the Brexit party may well split the Tory vote in a general election....allowing Labour or a Lib lab pact to triumph!........then watch the leftie trots turn Labour into the party that subgugates the people!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Yep, this sort of thing is commonplace with politicians, a convicted criminal, a bunch of political whores and traitors can frustrate the democratic will of the people, and potentially bring down the democratically elected government!

Forget independent Tory candidates, I believe the Brexit party may well split the Tory vote in a general election....allowing Labour or a Lib lab pact to triumph!........then watch the leftie trots turn Labour into the party that subgugates the people!

The Brexit Party have stated that as long as Brexit is carried out they will not stand against Tory candidates, but if it all goes Pete Tong then  they will split it all up.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

I believe the Brexit party may well split the Tory vote in a general election....allowing Labour or a Lib lab pact to triumph!

Hopefully Farage will see sense and do a deal with Johnson; Being realistic, Brexit (in any form at all) will never happen under a Lab/Lib Dem/SNP coalition.  It would almost certainly never happen under a Labour majority either (not that a Labour majority is actually likely).

The ONLY way a Brexit will happen is with a Tory (Johnson) government.  It might well happen under a Brexit party government - but that is not a realistic proposition.

So IF Farage actually wants Brexit (which I'm sure he does), the only way it can have a decent chance of happening is by doing a deal with Johnson.

[panoma1]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Hopefully Farage will see sense and do a deal with Johnson; Being realistic, Brexit (in any form at all) will never happen under a Lab/Lib Dem/SNP coalition.  It would almost certainly never happen under a Labour majority either (not that a Labour majority is actually likely).

The ONLY way a Brexit will happen is with a Tory (Johnson) government.  It might well happen under a Brexit party government - but that is not a realistic proposition.

So IF Farage actually wants Brexit (which I'm sure he does), the only way it can have a decent chance of happening is by doing a deal with Johnson.

I agree! The problem is, if a Brexit party candidate stands against a Tory candidate in a general election, it will split the vote....and if they split the vote and no (or even a few) Brexit candidates actually get elected it will be at the expense of the Tories! Then the Brexit party are useless to the Tories........what then can they offer the Tories in any "deal".............nothing!........Any "deal" between the Tories and Brexit party, such as them not standing against a Tory candidate, or agreeing to only field a either a Tory or a Brexit candidate in any one constituency, must be done before any General election.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, do not forget in was camaroon and conservative goverment that gave the uk the leave or stay vote, it did not say on the ballot paper,  labour/lib dems/SNP and others could over rule a democratic vote or get involved with any say many going against the people they represent, what ever you think of boris he is in charge and should continue with those that stand behind him and do what was voted for, god forbid if there was a general election and Corbyn and his !!!!!!! got back in power, it would be the first time in my life i would vote conservative, it was only a few hundred years ago people thought when you sail to the horizon you would drop to the abyss, if we did go out the EU on a no deal we will not go in to the abyss, they maybe a slight blip but as i have posted before the other EU countries need the billions we spend on trade and services so they will still be knocking on our trade door, but we can also find trade in many many other countries and not be shackled with red tape.    

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

Any "deal" between the Tories and Brexit party, such as them not standing against a Tory candidate, or agreeing to only field a either a Tory or a Brexit candidate in any one constituency, must be done before any General election.

If a deal was done - I'm quite sure Brexit could get done a- and we can move on to 'normal' politics; however if we assume that Johnson wins a minority of say 10 with say 20 Brexit MPs, making a majority for the Tory/Brexit 'grouping' of 10 - once Brexit is out of the way, how will they vote?

Farage has been very secretive about what their policies outside Brexit will be - and their candidates are a very wide mix from (I believe) some former UKIP members to some former left Labour members. 

I think that is what Johnson is nervous about - and until Farage will let on what his policies on other matters are - it has to be a worry as I have a suspicion that there will be little consensus in the Brexit Party on any issue other than Brexit.

[oowee]

33 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

If a deal was done - I'm quite sure Brexit could get done a- and we can move on to 'normal' politics; however if we assume that Johnson wins a minority of say 10 with say 20 Brexit MPs, making a majority for the Tory/Brexit 'grouping' of 10 - once Brexit is out of the way, how will they vote?

Farage has been very secretive about what their policies outside Brexit will be - and their candidates are a very wide mix from (I believe) some former UKIP members to some former left Labour members. 

I think that is what Johnson is nervous about - and until Farage will let on what his policies on other matters are - it has to be a worry as I have a suspicion that there will be little consensus in the Brexit Party on any issue other than Brexit.

Farage is not going to put forward any meaningful policy as it will invite debate. Rather like the referendum he will want to keep his position vague it will be all about what electors dont want rather than what you do..

Boris will not be able to make a coalition with the Brexit party. If the Brexit party has seats it is because they have put up a range of candidates and they will have split already split the Tory vote. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Boris will not be able to make a coalition with the Brexit party.

Any coalition would be arranged afterwards ....... because no one knows yet what the position will be after the poll.  However a 'not stand against each other' pact in certain seats - for example:

• Allow Brexit to stand against Labour in some northern Leave voting constituencies unopposed by a Tory
• Allow a Tory to stand in some Tory possible 'wins' without opposition from Brexit.

If as a result Brexit win seats - then a coalition might be the next step.  On present 'share' indications it looks unlikely Brexit would win many (or even any) seats, whereas they might well allow Labour/Lib Dem to make gains over Tories and loose Tory seats (as happened recently in the Brecon(?) bye election)

[oowee]

51 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, do not forget in was camaroon and conservative goverment that gave the uk the leave or stay vote, it did not say on the ballot paper,  labour/lib dems/SNP and others could over rule a democratic vote or get involved with any say many going against the people they represent, what ever you think of boris he is in charge and should continue with those that stand behind him and do what was voted for, god forbid if there was a general election and Corbyn and his !!!!!!! got back in power, it would be the first time in my life i would vote conservative, it was only a few hundred years ago people thought when you sail to the horizon you would drop to the abyss, if we did go out the EU on a no deal we will not go in to the abyss, they maybe a slight blip but as i have posted before the other EU countries need the billions we spend on trade and services so they will still be knocking on our trade door, but we can also find trade in many many other countries and not be shackled with red tape.    

Surely the decline has already started? Weaker growth in the 4th quarter 2018 follows slower growth since the referendum. The economy is 1.2% smaller today than projected by the OBR pre referendum. That's £24b or £800 per household. 

Just like we can now you mean? 

Where will the red tape go? 

 

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Any coalition would be arranged afterwards ....... because no one knows yet what the position will be after the poll.  However a 'not stand against each other' pact in certain seats - for example:

• Allow Brexit to stand against Labour in some northern Leave voting constituencies unopposed by a Tory
• Allow a Tory to stand in some Tory possible 'wins' without opposition from Brexit.

If as a result Brexit win seats - then a coalition might be the next step.  On present 'share' indications it looks unlikely Brexit would win many (or even any) seats, whereas they might well allow Labour/Lib Dem to make gains over Tories and loose Tory seats (as happened recently in the Brecon(?) bye election)

I follow the logic but dont think its a simple solution. It requires Tories to sign up to out at all costs and a timetable. The hand holding would expose Tories to accusations of being a party of no deal when many of their large business backers will most certainly be screaming for a deal. There would likely be many seats to argue over with existing Tory MP's. 

These things rarely play out the way one might expect but at this stage I can only see greater fragmentation in Parliament post any GE. 

[pinfireman]

13 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

He is now a good Catholic Boy, "Hail Mary" thrice, jobs a goodun

I,m curious....where does the "Captain" come from? Honorary title, or merely a pseudonym?

[pinfireman]

17 hours ago, Gordon R said:

A rather daft title for a thread. 

A more entertaining title for a thread would have been "Jezzer, the terrorists' friend, rides a bike" or "Di discovers mathematics". 

PS - I think that Tony Blair has copyrighted the "Liar" tag.

:-) Like it !

17 hours ago, Benthejockey said:

 

Put me off my breakfast!

14 hours ago, oowee said:

What on earth is this kipper prattling on about. All this carp re schools and police is a mere distraction from the job in hand.

Progress 🙂 where on what????? Next will be either crash out or GE with even more division. 

Lets come together and get it done says the kipper 👍.  All up for that so lets do it. Sorry I forgot they don't know how to do that. There is no mechanism with our political system to achieve workable compromise. 

Like the compromises they had in Italy from the 1950,s onwards? Totral chaos?

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Farage is not going to put forward any meaningful policy as it will invite debate. Rather like the referendum he will want to keep his position vague it will be all about what electors dont want rather than what you do..

Youre basing that assumption on ?

And the last part , seriously ?
Thats been labour strategy for the last 9 years !

 

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Boris will not be able to make a coalition with the Brexit party. If the Brexit party has seats it is because they have put up a range of candidates and they will have split already split the Tory vote. 

Again, what are you basing that on ?
If Boris needs BP to make the numbers for a coalition, is he going to say , no , lets have a labour lead coalition instead ,because I cant work with Farage ?
Of course he isnt, ideology wise , they arent that far apart, they both want Brexit, and are both right of centre.

Like most of the TV debates last night, it seems the opposition to Boris's plans lack coherence.
Corbyn screams hes ready for an election, hoping that no one calls his bluff, because deep down , he knows his party, under his dodgy leadership, faces a severe beating if one is called now.
His ministers on the other hand, say they only want an election when THEY want one, (ie . when they think they can win it ) do they not realise it doesnt work like that ?

Boris has outsmarted them.
Without some dodgy legal action (which BJ might well stall or ignore)  to reverse what the MPs have already voted for.
The only way to (*at least try) stop no deal , is the vote of no confidence, which leads to a GE the opposition cant win.
Corbyn et al are stuffed, the EU have nothing left to fire at us, and even if they drop the backstop as a last ditch attempt to prevent no deal, I think BJ is still going to take us out anyway come Halloween.
The strategy has been thought out, and the possible moves plotted well in advance.

Its happening 😄

 

*This is where the prorogation delay comes into play, to legally push us over 31/10 anyway.
 

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

I follow the logic but dont think its a simple solution.

Completely agree.

 

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

at this stage I can only see greater fragmentation in Parliament post any GE

Inclined to agree

[pinfireman]

31 minutes ago, oowee said:

Farage is not going to put forward any meaningful policy as it will invite debate. Rather like the referendum he will want to keep his position vague it will be all about what electors dont want rather than what you do..

Boris will not be able to make a coalition with the Brexit party. If the Brexit party has seats it is because they have put up a range of candidates and they will have split already split the Tory vote. 

 

What do mean by "meaningful policies"....just the ones you agree with?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Quote

As I posted in the Proroguing of Parliament thread earlier today;

"Interesting to see Comrade Corbyn pronouncing "We are ready for a general Election" last night and then this morning Mary Creagh MP  saying "There is no way the two thirds majority to call a general Election will be reached."

I suppose at least someone at the top of the party has a grip on reality!"

 

[pinfireman]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

Surely the decline has already started? Weaker growth in the 4th quarter 2018 follows slower growth since the referendum. The economy is 1.2% smaller today than projected by the OBR pre referendum. That's £24b or £800 per household. 

Just like we can now you mean? 

Where will the red tape go? 

 

When economic bad news is posted on here regarding your beloved EU giants, Germany, Italy and France, you fall  very silent, and only  comment on anything that puts our economy (which is in better shape than theirs) down? Why is that?

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

When economic bad news is posted on here regarding your beloved EU giants, Germany, Italy and France, you fall  very silent, and only  comment on anything that puts our economy (which is in better shape than theirs) down? Why is that?

Is the reverse also true?

It may be because I was responding to the post re the UK abys and therefore we were talking about post referendum, economic decline in the UK. Germany and others seem irrelevant in that discussion.? 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

therefore we were talking about post referendum, economic decline in the UK.

But we havent  had 'decline' !

We have had slower growth, but not as slow as some other EU countries, and highly unlikely to be anything to do with Brexit anyway !

The UK is generally in good economic shape , and as some say, DESPITE BREXIT