The demise of lead shot and small bore shot guns

[figgy]

Talk of lead entering food stuffs. Most of the UK drink from lead water pipes, that was deemed safe after all the scaremongering. It only gets changed to plastic when it bursts or gets damaged. What's worse lead or plastic in your food.

Soon a lead ban is in place even for game etc it will also be shoved through for all shooting.

1800 FPS  steel clay loads will be the norm like in Denmark.

Powders will have to change too. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by figgy

[Salmo]

16 hours ago, wigeon jim said:

If lead shot was banned it would hopefully stop all the illegal use off lead in Scotland and elsewhere, I am sick of all the guns that still use lead in wetlands in Scotland including pheasant shoots and simulated clay shoots, even the Scone Gamefair run there clay shoot one year ( till I complained) around open running water ways,I  used to shoot a wetlands on the last few days of the season after the Italians had finished a few days earlier, the place was littered with empty lead shells floating in the water,. Jim.

Jim , that’s a tad unfair. I’ve bought Winchester / Remington / federal lead ammo . I’ve £3000 what am I meant to do 

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, Salmo said:

Jim , that’s a tad unfair. I’ve bought Winchester / Remington / federal lead ammo . I’ve £3000 what am I meant to do 

I'd be a little more emphatic and go for downright selfish. It's tarring everyone with the same brush. The argument is invalid anyway - did the threat of the noose prevent murder?

Sorry, Jim, I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your thoughts but that's how I feel.

[ClemFandango]

1 hour ago, Salmo said:

Jim , that’s a tad unfair. I’ve bought Winchester / Remington / federal lead ammo . I’ve £3000 what am I meant to do 

I suppose the common sense thing would be an initial ban on the sale of lead ammo rather than it's use. Followed by a total ban five years later then people could use up what they have in storage. 

[Steel100]

This is all about politics and making the public feel as if 'something' is being done. Science and logic take a back seat.  I'm just back from shooting in Germany and whilst over there, I was chatting with a Belgian friend who told me that lead shot isn't even permitted for clay shoots in Belgium.

 

Andy

[captainhastings]

Has any one or any thing actually died of lead poisoning by eating shot game ? I know faloners like lead free food for the birds but other than that. Or died  from a build up of lead shot in an marsh or what ever

Edited February 1, 2020 by captainhastings

[ClemFandango]

1 hour ago, captainhastings said:

Has any one or any thing actually died of lead poisoning by eating shot game ? I know faloners like lead free food for the birds but other than that. Or died  from a build up of lead shot in an marsh or what ever

There is evidence to suggest lead has detrimental effects to raptors and carrion feeders as well as lead in food causing negative effects on humans. 

[wymberley]

6 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

I suppose the common sense thing would be an initial ban on the sale of lead ammo rather than it's use. Followed by a total ban five years later then people could use up what they have in storage. 

Preceded perhaps by a ban on the makers replenishing their stocks but a period allowed to use up and sell the existing.

[johnnytheboy]

So was my prediction right, is the rumours on Facebook ref voluntary ban on steel shot correct as of 2024? 
 

did that just devalue all small bore guns by 50% 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, johnnytheboy said:

So was my prediction right, is the rumours on Facebook ref voluntary ban on steel shot correct as of 2024? 
 

did that just devalue all small bore guns by 50% 

A voluntary ban on STEEL SHOT?

I do not bother with Facebook so am unable to check your comment.

[johnnytheboy]

😂😂 so angry I cant type, lead shot 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Calm down dear!

[johnnytheboy]

Maybe a rumour but also on Instagram 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Oh I don't doubt it is coming, just how long it takes and will there be HONESTY from ALL sides?

[wymberley]

"If there was an outright ban on lead, manufacturers would quickly bring out new ranges of non toxic to cater for it."

Chance would be a fine thing, apart from the one obvious requirement of being non toxic, we're still waiting for all three the other criteria - safe, effectve and affordable to be met in any one particular cartridge. It's not been found in 40 odd years and in view of the vast profits to be made there's no way anyone is sitting on it and doing nothing. So forget it for the foreseeable future.

[johnnytheboy]

If you want to see the future you just need to look abroad, it happened years ago there. 
 

North America had the race for the best steel for years, now they are racing for heavier non toxics, the irony is that Kent are pushing bismuth that is manufactured by gamebore in the UK and sold at a fraction of the price we can buy it, maybe gamebore bismuth manufacturing empire will be ready for the ban! 
 

In Denmark they have had the nontoxic ban for 20 years and gamebore lead the market with hypersteel product, but also sell bismuth at the same price as the uk, profiteering, not selling it at the prices the do in America 

The serious catch is non of these country’s abide by the cip regulations giving them better options for steel shot cartridges

 

If this ban goes ahead and we are still operating within cip regulations we will be ********

 

Thankfully I didn’t buy a 28b 

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, johnnytheboy said:

Maybe a rumour but also on Instagram 

Basc can’t ban anything they have no such authority they don’t make the laws as they keep telling us re the medical reporting fiasco, that would take parliament to do so, may be basc might go along with a voluntary ban to delay or limit the scope of any potential legal ban in the future.

 

 

[johnnytheboy]

14 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Basc can’t ban anything they have no such authority they don’t make the laws as they keep telling us re the medical reporting fiasco, that would take parliament to do so, may be basc might go along with a voluntary ban to delay or limit the scope of any potential legal ban in the future.

 

 

We all know they can’t, but look at my original post, why were they with the rural affairs minister consulting on the transition to non lead ammunition! 

The question would be is this coming from the government or our shooting organisations! 

[lancer425]

5 hours ago, johnnytheboy said:

We all know they can’t, but look at my original post, why were they with the rural affairs minister consulting on the transition to non lead ammunition! 

The question would be is this coming from the government or our shooting organisations! 

Basc can only advise and lobby , to try and influence policy. Nobody can defend lead no matter how much we want it to stay. It is toxic and we are using it, and a lead ban will come.

  Not ideal i know but we have way bigger battles to fight than lead shot.  Most wildfowlers know that it is a battle that is not worth seeding much blood over, even in its most humble form "steel "  non lead is fine.

And with regards small bores and lead, if anything lead is far from fantastic as a shot type in the small long cased .410s etc, the longer wad colum adds to more shot deformation , than say a shorter wad colum in a 2.5 inch 1/2 oz load.

 Switching to a steel load .410 is compromised on case volume , but as in bigger bores the lighter payloads off bigger steel shot never quite match lead in the pellet count ftlbs of energey dept.  But in the field steel can perform very well when compared to lead even beat it.

This video is well researched and the data well thought out and i think gathered in as fair a way as possible, and the results are there to see.

We need to be looking at the positives of non lead, start accepting its coming and start sorting out our equipment to get the job done as efficiently as we can. In trying to defend lead in todays world, will lose us credibility, if the American can not beat it what chance have we got here?

Skirmish here and there with a tactical  retreat is about the best BASC can do and that is what they are doing, and in my opinion it beats a rout any day. 

Steel its better than you think as most wildfowlers know already. .

 

[rbrowning2]

This is also worth a read and explains where we are at,

https://www.countryside-alliance.org/our-work/campaigns/campaignforshooting/lead-shot-policy/lead-shot-and-echa

Current biggest issue I have with steel shot is it is not a direct cost replacement for lead, by that I mean to keep the cost down you have to use non biodegradable plastic wads which will be in the environment for hundreds of years.

The biodegradable fibre cups or new plastic substitute wads are currently very expensive and in limited gauges. The high cost is not just a production volume issue but due to cost of the raw materials and manufacturing techniques.

most praising the virtues of steel shot assume we all shoot 12gauge.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by rbrowning2
Forgot the link

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, rbrowning2 said:

This is also worth a read and explains where we are at,

Current biggest issue I have with steel shot is it is not a direct cost replacement for lead, by that I mean to keep the cost down you have to use non biodegradable plastic wads which will be in the environment for hundreds of years.

The biodegradable fibre cups or new plastic substitute wads are currently very expensive and in limited gauges. The high cost is not just a production volume issue but due to cost of the raw materials and manufacturing techniques.

most praising the virtues of steel shot assume we all shoot 12gauge.

But if the ban comes and I am sure it will , COST will not be a reason to keep lead.

[rbrowning2]

10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But if the ban comes and I am sure it will , COST will not be a reason to keep lead.

100% Agree, which then brings you to the question what future does the sport have?  
Could clay pigeon shooting survive if basic club cartridges reach £300 plus and if clay shooting was to massively decline then the impact on the industry could be massive. Given that clay site allowing only fibre wads would move over to the expensive biodegradable plastic type wads.

Even at today’s prices for lead cartridges and the extra pain in obtaining certificates people are giving up their guns rather than renewing their certificates. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by rbrowning2

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

100% Agree, which then brings you to the question what future does the sport have?  
Could clay pigeon shooting survive if basic club cartridges reach £300 plus and if clay shooting was to massively decline then the impact on the industry could be massive.

Even at today’s prices for lead cartridges and the extra pain in obtaining certificates people are giving up their guns rather than renewing their certificates. 

I think the sport of clay (target) shooting is very healthy, certainly around the middle of the country. Quite how we and the manufacturers decide to proceed will be very important.

The long viable wads are available, the steel is available and it will all fall in to place as it is in their (the cartridge manufacturers) interest to make it work and to keep selling us something that would be cost effective.

I first shot steel clay carts in the last century on a Gambore test. BUT until we have to change, we will NOT. Most of us still prefer to use lead fired from plastic wads because of cost and performance.

Once that attitude changes, the development of new cartridges will be quick, one manufacturer will decide to make steel loaded shells with bio-degradable wads and if he keeps the costs low and can produce sufficient volume he will make a fortune. All of the others will have to follow his lead.

Tomorrow I will shoot a 100 bird ESP Reg at Sporting Targets with plastic wad shells.

[Centrepin]

I posted this in another thread, its had very little views so I thought I'd repost here. I've watched it a few times and although I'm totally against a lead ban its food for thought. If they could bring the price down by £100 a thousand I'm sure there would be a take up.  More folk using it, cheaper it becomes - in theory. Of course this is only wads and cases..

 

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I think the sport of clay (target) shooting is very healthy, certainly around the middle of the country. Quite how we and the manufacturers decide to proceed will be very important.

The long viable wads are available, the steel is available and it will all fall in to place as it is in their (the cartridge manufacturers) interest to make it work and to keep selling us something that would be cost effective.

I first shot steel clay carts in the last century on a Gambore test. BUT until we have to change, we will NOT. Most of us still prefer to use lead fired from plastic wads because of cost and performance.

Once that attitude changes, the development of new cartridges will be quick, one manufacturer will decide to make steel loaded shells with bio-degradable wads and if he keeps the costs low and can produce sufficient volume he will make a fortune. All of the others will have to follow his lead.

Tomorrow I will shoot a 100 bird ESP Reg at Sporting Targets with plastic wad shells.

Plain fact is nobody really needs lead. And if we dwell on the small bores the very subject of this thread, TSS ot HW 15 etc are better performers than lead ever was in small bores, and small bores on TSS make more sense than spacing it out in 12s and 10s where their bigger capacity will accommodate big steel and get to typical maximum range / lethality that way without the expense.

 Small bore small needs lots more shots from a kg of tss in a .410 than a typical 12 heavier shots and small bore were made for each other.